I also posted this on the Recovery board, but I hope you'll forgive me if I post it here too because I am having a very hard time with this.

**********
My husband has a very long history of “inappropriate friendships” with his female co-workers. (He gets very angry if I dare to call them “girlfriends” or imply that their private off-site activities were “dates” or “affairs” of any kind.) He swears he has stopped this activity now and, given his changed work situation, I’m inclined to believe him.

However: I have told him for many months that what I needed to help get over ten years of being lied to so he could go have fun with the girls was specific apologies for things that happened. Not just “I’m sorry I hurt you,” but things like:

“I’m sorry I put her in my car.”

“I’m sorry I spent a whole evening with her at the company dinner acting just like her date.”

“I’m sorry I sent her mushy e-mails using the word ‘love’ and let her do the same to me.”

“I’m sorry I took her out for a private birthday lunch and bought her a special present with our money.”

And many more.

Hearing these things and knowing he meant them would have meant a tremendous amount to me. It would have helped me to heal. He clearly understands that this is what I want. But he also admitted to me today that he just does not have any regrets for all the fun times he had with these women, and therefore cannot ever apologize to me for doing these things.

In a strange way, it was a relief to hear this. I would rather have a painful truth than any sort of lie. But what does this do to anyone’s recovery? I will have to live with knowing that he’s not sorry for what he did, and that he’ll enjoy the memories of all the fun he had with these girls while I sat alone and waited for him, for the rest of my life. I will always know that they won, and I lost, because they will always be cherished memories while I am just the one who was kicked to curb so he could be with them and then tell me he’s not sorry

How in the world do I begin to deal with this, short of extremely heavy alcohol use?

psycho_B , I find it hard to speak for anyone but myself, But I had to hear that my UH regretted ever having given one moment of time to his A partner.
He did admit at the time he enjoyed it, but later said he realized it was wrong, dirty and made him feel much guilt as well as separated from God.
We've been married 31 yrs now. We're both early 60's, me 61 he 63. This happened in 2001.
If mine told me he had no regrets over the ow or his flirting and cheating, I'd walk and give him no chance at all. Because who needs to live with someone who is so self centered, selfish and egotistical.
Have you ask him about you having fun? Not that you should or would, but you might ask him how he'd feel if you had a little fun on side with other men as you have gotten so bored sitting waiting on him!
I can tell you exactly what he'll say. "If you do you'll be divorced for sure" he'll say!
Double standards. But if a man truly is sorry for your pain and loves you, he'd have to say he hated what he did even if he had to lie about it!
But lying isn't what I'd want either.
If he has no regrets over it, thinks it was all fun, then he'll not stop now. He'll eventually need his fun again. Perhaps he hasn't stopped anyway. My H never was late home from work, neer missed a weekend with me, never out at nights, yet had his A with contact through work.
I even discovered later by checking pay statements he'd taken days off I thought he was at work. Check his pay stubs if they show days off.
Sorry, but this sort of got me going with his calloused statement to you! Try kicking his butt to the curb and tell him it's your turn to have fun. LOL
LouLou

<<<Have you ask him about you having fun? Not that you should or would, but you might ask him how he'd feel if you had a little fun on side with other men as you have gotten so bored sitting waiting on him!
I can tell you exactly what he'll say. "If you do you'll be divorced for sure" he'll say!>>>

I have asked him this. He just shrugs and says, "I don't know."

He insists he cannot understand why I am upset over these women. I have told him repeatedly, in terms just as plain as I can make them, that I wanted:

1) Empathy for what he and these women put me through. In other words, put yourself in my place and tell me how it feels.

2) Information about what went on between him and them so I am no longer shut out and in the dark.

3) Apologies for specific incidents.

His only response is to get angry and insist, over and over and over, that he "doesn't know how to fix this."

??? I just told you -- didn't I?

"I DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX THIS!!!"

I have never seen, or heard of, anything like this. He is angry and frustrated because I will "never accept it." When I look at him in utter astonishment and tell him, "Of COURSE I will never accept it! What wife in her right mind can just 'accept' her husband's girlfriends -- past or present??" he just gets angrier and more frustrated because he "can't fix this."

And angrier still because I dared to use the word "girlfriend."

Has anyone else ever encountered anything like this?

You are speaking two different languages.

Playing advocate for your H here:

He's sorry for hurting you .... but that's not what you want to hear .

You want to hear him say he is sorry he enjoyed himself.

You have given your H a 2-choice dilemma....

1. Lie to you ... "I did not enjoy myself." This lie would quiet your hurt.

2. Be emotionally honest and open with you ... "I am sorry I hurt you." .... which increases family strife.

"I don't know how to fix this" is an appropriate response. ..... Because you're asking him to lie to you to make you feel better, but he is learning how to be an honest man.

Are you sure you are wording your demands/requests appropriately?

Your questions feel like a trap, and it sounds like your H agrees.

What can you do to unlock this dilemma for your husband? It would be a very loving act on your part to re-word things so as not to be a trap.

Best of luck.

Pep

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I am reminded of something from the distant past. Allow me to share....

I was sent to a nursing home for some of my early training .... about 1978. The nursing home supervisor was a rather nasty woman. She was not a very good teacher, in that she only taught by showing bad examples of how NOT to supervise. Thankfully, my time there was brief.

This nasty supervisor was showing me the medication room and explaining the proceedures that the clinic assistants use to administer the old folks their meds. She said to me ....

"I tell my girls if they ever make a mistake and give the wrong medication to any patient, they will be fired in the spot!"

She was soooo proud of her policy!

I stood there dumbfounded! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

She had carefully constructed a policy that promoted punishment for honesty, and therefore put all the nursing home residents at risk for medication errors.

Just some thoughts.....

p_b,

In a way, almost everyone who's spouse has had an affair has gone through this. There is one reason why all waywards have affairs....they enjoy them. It is by far, one of the most difficult pieces of information for us BSs to accept and put behind us (I know it was for me). My H regretted getting caught. And I think he deeply regretted hurting me after I discovered it. But if it hadn't been enjoyable, he wouldn't have done it. Perhaps you are asking him to show regret for the wrong thing. Ask him if he regrets the pain he has caused you. That is something he CAN fix. He can't be honest with you about NOT enjoying the time with these women....it's catch 22 for him.

You would spend far more productive time asking him how he will PREVENT future discretions. Start setting some marital boundaries and POJA where they should be. What types of contact with coworkers IS and is NOT acceptable. That's where you can address car rides and dinners and emailing. Ask him to open his life to you so that you can rebuild trust....pass words, cell phone bills, work schedules etc.

I really know how much this hurts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<<<"I don't know how to fix this" is an appropriate response. ..... Because you're asking him to lie to you to make you feel better, but he is learning how to be an honest man.>>>
Are you sure you are wording your demands/requests appropriately?>>>

I believe him when he says he is not sorry for his actions with these women. I remained calm when he finally admitted this to me today and actually thanked him for his honesty. I have told him many times that I do not want him to lie and I do not think I am asking him to lie.

However, the fact remains that it is exceedingly painful to me that he is not sorry for his *actions.* What do I do with that pain? How am I supposed to rebuild trust and gain reassurance when he just doesn't think he really did anything wrong and is incapable of apologizing for it?

I never asked him to say "I'm sorry I had fun with these girls." Hell, I *know* he had loads of fun with them. I understand perfectly well that that's why he did it. This is not a shock to me, though I have told him many times how painful it is to me to know that he willingly kicked me to the curb to be with them, back when I trusted him and did not know what was going on.
He just shrugs and makes more excuses about how they all worked together so he thought that made it okay and besides, he just didn't think it was wrong anyway since he wasn't in love with any of them (though he sure knew enough to keep it from me for years, and so did these girls.)

I desperately needed some empathy and understanding *from him* for this kind of pain and shock. Instead, first I was ignored, then I was laughed at, and then, when those didn't work, he got angry.

I did ask him for apologies for the specific things I mentioned at the top of this thread. I asked him because these were very, very important to me and I knew it.

Is it unreasonable for me to want to hear him say, "I wish I had not taken (#2) out for a private birthday lunch, because it's wrong for a married man to behave that way and because I can't be with you if I'm with her?"

He flatly refuses to do this. He is just not sorry for his *actions.* He can make himself say "I'm sorry I hurt you," or "I'm sorry I neglected you," but cannot say "I'm sorry I put her in my car" or "I'm sorry we exchanged those e-mails" (an especially painful subject for me.)

He thinks a "general" apology should be enough. But to me, a "general" apology is next to meaningless, because this man is the master of the Word Game and I am well aware that something so general could mean anything (or nothing.)

There has been so much deception here for so long that the concept of specific apologies is extremely important to me. I have to be very, very sure of exactly what I hear to make sure I am not being played again, as I was for a *very* long time back when he had my trust. I know that nothing else is going to reassure me that he actually means it this time.

I won't get it. I can't have it. He'd decided that I don't need it and he doesn't see any reason for any specific apologies.

Am I being unreasonable here?

What do I do with the knowledge that my husband is just not sorry for his actions and told me exactly that today?

<<<You would spend far more productive time asking him how he will PREVENT future discretions. Start setting some marital boundaries and POJA where they should be. What types of contact with coworkers IS and is NOT acceptable. That's where you can address car rides and dinners and emailing. Ask him to open his life to you so that you can rebuild trust....pass words, cell phone bills, work schedules etc. >>>

He's done this. But please explain to me how, if he is not sorry for his actions in the past, he would be sorry if he did these same actions today?

I am far too tired to reply....

before I go to bed, just wanted to say ....

YOUR feelings are OK. HIS feelings are OK.

What can he do for you tomorrow? (besides apologize in a different way) ....

What can you do for him tomorrow? (besides not asking for a different apology)....

G'nite

p_b,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's done this. But please explain to me how, if he is not sorry for his actions in the past, he would be sorry if he did these same actions today? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When he did this in the past.....you were blissfully unaware. He didn't have to face your pain everyday. He didn't yet have to deal with guilt for the mess he made of his marriage because of it. He had not yet faced the consequences of his actions. I suspect that he is not happy at all about the results of his choices.

You say you don't want him to lie and that you are making it safe to be honest to you. I believe you.....but in order to be honest, he has to tell you what you don't want to hear. The only way out, would be to lie and tell you that he is sorry for his actions....and he isn't. You are giving him no place to go.

Finally.....if he is truly unremorseful and he is still at risk to do these things in the future....making him apologize will prevent nothing. Does he have the moral makeup to resist temptation in the future? Do you believe he is capable of it? If not, no set of words will make him comply or guarantee you that he will not hurt you in the future. What kind of man is he? Can he be faithful. Can he break this pattern of bad behavior and learn from the experience of so much pain? If the answer is yes.....trust the faith you have in your husband to be a better man and learn from his mistakes instead of driving him away with this specific list of demands for apologizing.

Your fear comes from the real knowledge that you are vulnerable. You are afraid of being hurt again. You want to absolutely guarantee this will never happen again and it can't be done. All of us are vulnerable to more pain. You aren't being unreasonable....but you are being unrealistic in believing that saying specific words in a specific way will give you closure. He can't give you closure....that's something you have to give yourself.

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

PB,

I am gonna take this one on from a 'different angle'. IMHO, I suspect he knows you want what type of apology you want and as long as he doesn't give it to you, he retains some sort of sordid control over you. He can yank your strings when you make him angry over anything else.

Want to change that? I did. My way is not conventional and probably NOT MB like. But for me it worked. U C, my WS did the same for a long time. He would apologize his way and I would have to interpret it so I could live with it. After a while I was interpreting a lot of things. Then I realized he was talking a different language and he was expecting me to interpret it for myself and everyone else. He used me!!! YUCK.

I learned to babble back.....throw back his treatment at him. Not on the A subject but on other subjects. See most WS can only concentrate on one type of causing trouble for you at a time. In other words, you can plan do let him see what he is doing but doing similar on a different subject.

ex: WS doesn't apologize enough to convince you he is genuinely sorry. When you make a mistake, make sure you give a very general similar type of apology. Don't give details when he wants them. Give them if it is important but not if he only wants them.

The WS tend to want the BS to do more for them than the WS will do for the BS. Are you gonna let your H do that to you?

L.

<<<The only way out, would be to lie and tell you that he is sorry for his actions....and he isn't. You are giving him no place to go.>>>

Well, okay then. I should not expect him to apologize to me for his actions. I was wrong to think he would regret all the fun he had with a bunch of trashy girls while I sat home like a dumb dog and waited for him -- but I had to hope and I had to try, didn't I?

That is the truth. He isn't sorry and I just have to accept that. But I don't know how to live with it. I promise I will not ask him for specific apologies again; all I will get is a fight anyway.

But how do *I* live with it? To me, all this means is that He Got Away With It. He can treat me worse than dirt, lie to me and kick me to the curb every time some cute piece of [censored] shows up at the office, and put me through three years of hell while I try to get answers and reassurance and figure out some way to rebuild a marriage that he and his gal-pals were happy to destroy -- and he can just go happily on his way and not have to apologize for any of it, except for the vague and (to me) insulting "I'm sorry I hurt you."

I despise hearing "I'm sorry I hurt you." As far as I'm concerned, all it means is, "Gee, I'm sorry it hurt YOU, because if it didn't I could still be doing it."

But that's okay. I'm the one who has to find a way to live with it.

I never wanted a divorce. This is a 21-year-marriage with a 15-year-old boy involved. I cannot and will not take anti-depressants because I am a novelist and I have too many first-hand accounts of how anti-depressants make it impossible to work in a creative field (it's hard enough to sit down and write happy love stories as it is, but I am under contract and I am managing.) Taking ADs would only make that part of my life harder.

So: no more asking for apologies. And since I cannot have apologies, there is no reason for me to ask him for information about what happened in the past between him and these girls, either (another thing that was *extremely* important to me.) Why would I want to hear yet another account of how much fun he and his office-trash had without me while I was being lied to and kept in the dark, when I know he doesn't regret any of it? That's not helping me out of the dark. That's just bragging and rubbing my face in it.

So. Okay. No more apologies, no more asking for information -- even though those are the two things I needed to help me recover. My question is: how do I live with this?

Did I mention that his last gal-pal is still sitting ten feet outside his office door, and he *cannot* understand why this tears me up? The last time I brought it up, and told him that yes this DOES bother me, he ended by shouting at me, "Well, it SHOULDN'T!!!"

I have tried many of the techniques that I have read about here at MB. I have been very specific about what I want and need from him so that he is not expected to be a mind-reader. I have tried to spell out exactly *why* this situation upsets me so much, since he insists he cannot understand "the depth of my feelings."

Nothing helps. Nothing. I get stonewalling, anger, and very carefully worded statements that are designed to tell me what he thinks I want to hear so that I will shut up.

Orchid: I love your technique and I'm sure it's usually effective, but I can tell you that this would only make him very, very angry. He didn't do anything wrong and neither did these girls, remember?

Okay. I will have to live with the fact that he is not sorry for his actions, that he will never regret the fun he had behind my back, and that I will never know what really went on while he was out with them.

Somebody please tell me how to live with that.

You'd prefer your H would apologize for and acknowledge his wrong behavior rather than apologize for how his behavior hurt you...

I think this is what you're saying.... Is this correct?

Pep

<<<You'd prefer your H would apologize for and acknowledge his wrong behavior rather than apologize for how his behavior hurt you...>>>
<<<I think this is what you're saying.... Is this correct?>>>

I hoped to get both. One without the other -- either one -- strikes me as being pretty hollow.

But if I can't have it, I can't have it. I'm just trying to figure out what to do *now,* how to find a way to live with this *now.*

I've got that been-hit-in-the-head-with-a-board feeling again, after having to face up to this over the weekend. I just want to know how I can live with knowing he'll never really apologize and just isn't sorry for his actions.

I hope no one will hold it against me that I had to try my very best to make him understand, and that I very, very much hoped to see real remorse from him. I hope that was not something unreasonable on my part.

I am EXACTLY where you are at now. I got nowhere too w/the same questions. It's not working so you have to find another way. I just quit asking and, yes, at times I am BITING my tongue BUT I have to remembr it ISN'T going to get me anywhere but more pissed off at H. It's getting easier.

BUT, you ask, how to live w/it? That is what I am struggling with right now as well. All I can say is patience and a VERY GOOD COUNSELOR. We just went to our 2nd counseling session. I am letting her lead (we needed a good leader) and watching and listening to H's responses. I'm getting what I need this way. She has a way of bringing it out. Two sessions and I have heard more than I have in the past 4 months by letting this woman lead the conversation. She is also showing ME how I am not hearing exactly what he is saying (I can see this now because I have been so ANGRY and I am having a hard time focusing).

Bottom line is that I will still have to see if I can "live with it." I'm still unsure. I'm doing a LOT of soul searching. Taking one day at a time and actively trying through counseling to see if this is possible. Last thing I want to do is make a decision based on emotion which is what I would be doing right now.

SoDisappointed, thanks for your response.

I can see that you are having a very hard time getting information, too. But did your H ever apologize? If he did, were you satisfied and reassured by it?

pb,

I really like what sad had to say and how she is working through it. A couple of important things to note is that sometimes, real remorse comes out slowly.....and it's probably much much harder to get when it's an EA instead of a PA, because spouses can rationalize it away and hang on to the fact that they did "nothing" wrong in their eyes. This is incredibly common.

Have you read Shirley Glass's bood "Not just friends? She says emotional affairs are at epidemic proportions in this country and that the betrayers rarely show remorse at all.

One thing that helped me, was that although I know my H enjoyed his foray into the Thai brothels, was that he did KNOW and regret his DECISIONS. You may be able to get some satisfaction there. If he doesn't regret his actions.....see if he regrets his decisions and ask him how he prevent making bad decisions in the future. Ask him if he thinks his decisions in the past were harmful to your marriage. Because to him.....he may believe he had great restraint over his "actions". He may have been very tempted to take these things farther and didn't....and could be feeling pretty "unguilty" about that. But if he can see the poor decision making he made by putting himself and his marriage at greater risk for infidelity....PERHAPS that is something EACH of you could hold on to.

Does this make sense?

P_B

Forgive my memory. How long did you say you are in recovery?

Are you doing joint marriage counseling? If yes, bring this up with counselor. If not, why not?

How often do you bring this issue up with your H? Does he initiate any recovery discussions, or just you?

When do you bring it up .... in other words, what is the emotional environment like when you discuss important and difficult issues?

Did you both decide on ground rules to discuss these issues, or is it a come as you are and when you feel like it kind of deal?

Recovery is TOUGH!!!!!

Pep

<<<Forgive my memory. How long did you say you are in recovery?>>>

I'm not sure I'd call this "recovery." He went from at least 1991 through 2001 being married at home and single at work. I finally confronted him about it in the spring of 2000. They didn't knock it off until at least a year and a half later, when he got a promotion and wasn't working with her anymore (although her desk is still right outside his office door and I am not allowed to be bothered by this.)

<<<Are you doing joint marriage counseling? If yes, bring this up with counselor. If not, why not?>>>

We tried that. The counselor made the brilliant observation that I was angry, but he had no interest in *why* I might be angry. He just felt sorry for my husband that he had to live with such an angry psycho-b*tch.

I went once to IC once, in the same office. The female counselor listened to my story, shrugged her shoulders and said "I don't know what to tell you." Kinda like what happens here at MB.

<<<How often do you bring this issue up with your H? Does he initiate any recovery discussions, or just you?>>>

Every few days, or when something else happens to set me off. I'm the one who brings it up. He is sure that if he just goes on like nothing happened, I'll be forced to do the same.

<<<When do you bring it up .... in other words, what is the emotional environment like when you discuss important and difficult issues?>>>

Used to be he was just sure he could talk me into doing whatever he wanted. Now that I've stopped buying his bullsh*t, it's very, very tense. If I am hurt or angry, he either gets furiously angry at me or shuts down completely and stonewalls me.

He insists this is my fault, but he keeps forgetting one thing: I did not start out this way. I tried to emphasize this to the counselor too, but he was not interested. I wasted many years trying to reason with my husband about how his activities with his female co-workers were hurting me, long before I even knew he was in the habit of going off-site alone with them (the way they all acted in the office was bad enough and my gut had been screaming for years.)

What did being reasonable accomplish? Nothing. He laughed. He patted me on the head. I truly believe it fed his ego to know I was jealous. It was all a big game to him and to them, and they all went right on with their fun and right on lying to me -- until Psycho-B*tch finally got his attention. Now he is angry and hurt and *can't* understand why I am upset (and, frankly, ready for a straight-jacket.)

<<<Did you both decide on ground rules to discuss these issues, or is it a come as you are and when you feel like it kind of deal?>>>

Oh, we usually sit outside or sometimes go to a coffee shop. Sometimes we sit up late, depending on what Son and his friends are doing. But that has gotten absolutely nowhere. The more I try to explain things, the more he digs in his heels. He's sorry he hurt me, but he didn't really do anything wrong, and neither did these girls, and that's that.

<<<Recovery is TOUGH!!!!!>>>
I'd settle for recovery. I don't think this is it.

The thing that makes me the craziest, the thing I absolutely CANNOT STAND, is to hear him protect and defend these women IN ANY WAY. To me, refusing to apologize is doing exactly that. It drives me insane to know that some nasty little slut felt free to ride around with my husband in what I thought was OUR car, and that both of them lied to me about it so I wouldn't spoil their fun, and that THIS IS OKAY WITH HIM AND SHE DID NOTHING WRONG AND HE'S NOT SORRY HE DID IT AND HE CANNOT AND WILL NOT APOLOGIZE TO ME FOR IT.

Psycho_B*tch's head explodes again, and then all the problems are MY fault because I am "angry."

I didn't start out angry. I only got angry after being reasonable got me laughed at and ignored.

And the car is only one small example. I could write reams on other things I managed to find out about, and I am well aware that it's only the tip of a very big iceberg.

What do I do with all this rage and torment? What do the rest of you do?

<<<Have you read Shirley Glass's bood "Not just friends? She says emotional affairs are at epidemic proportions in this country and that the betrayers rarely show remorse at all.>>>

Yes, I have. Actually sat down and discussed about the first quarter of it page-by-page with him. He "disagrees" with much of it and "doesn't see how it affects him."

You have to remember something here: Because my husband worked with these women, anything and everything they did was all right. These women were NOT girlfriends. The were "co-workers," and it's okay to go out with your "co-workers," so nobody did anything wrong, see? And NOTHING -- I mean, NOTHING -- is going to change his mind on this.

Same with calling their activities "dating." Sure, he would drive off alone with his favorite piece of @ss for a private, off-site, hour-and-a-half lunch to celebrate her birthday complete with a personal gift, but that is NOT a date! He's her boss and they were TEAMBUILDING, not dating, just like they were TEAMBUILDING or TAKING A BUSINESS MEETING every time they went off-site alone, and I will get a heavy glass bowl thrown past my head if I DARE to disagree with that!

This is what I am dealing with. And I don't know what to do anymore. All I hear him do is defend, defend, defend these women and their actions, and it is literally driving me insane. I can stand almost anything except hearing him stick up for and protect these women. And as far as I'm concerned, if you can't apologize, you are protecting them by saying it was okay for them to do what they did.