Let me preface by saying .... you scare me a little bit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .... but, it's not what you may think ... I am scared you have become settled-in and comfortable with your anger.

How willing are you to try something different, take some non-angry steps?

If you want me to continue posting to you, let me know.

I don't want to waste your time if you think I am full of crap! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<<<If you want me to continue posting to you, let me know.>>>

Of course I would. Whenever you have time. You've helped many here, and what have I got to lose?

p_b,

Don't even get me started on "team-infidelity-building", but you can bet that almost all of us who have spouses in the corporate world are having to deal with it. I think it's a travesty!! I also think that I have zero hope of changing business practices in the near future....but I am certainly trying to address it in a productive way. This whole concept has taken hold in the corporate world, and the likelihood that trying to make your husband see it as you do....well...is not good. First of all, there are statistics that tell big business that this is great for business. They aren't interested in your family...they are interested in money. It may gall you....but there is a whole group of folks out there that say this is a good thing for careers, and believe it can be done without creating risk for marriages. It's a fallacy....but one that fighting head on....as you're trying to do....is going to damage your marriage even more.

You can hang onto the fact that it's just plain WRONG....and you'd be right. But the question is, do you want to be "right" or do you want to be happy? If you're smart about this, you're going to ditch the resentment, the list of specific apologies (which seem like overkill and make you look impossible to please) and start addressing some good marital boundaries that can protect your marriage from being vulnerable to something that is NOT going to go away anytime soon.

With my husband, we set up these boundaries:
*he invites me to all company events when possible
*he doesn't lunch, ride in the car etc alone with women....it has to be a group outing
*he doesn't share his personal life with them or confide in them
*he talks about his schedule and his day openly with me.

Let him know that you understand what team building is supposed to do (so he knows you understand his position...validation) and why you think it can be a risk for marriages. Ask him if the two of you can set up some boundaries that will make you feel more comfortable so that he can conduct business in the environment that is available to him. And stop blowing your top about this stuff or you will make your marriage SO vulnerable that all your fears will have tremendous power and push him right into the arms of one of these waiting opportunists.

My H's company actually had team building activities like volley ball on the beach with no wives.....but secretaries in bikinis....Taking clients to strip clubs could be expensed!....so if you think I don't "get it" you're wrong. I hate this stuff....but it did me know good to just get angry, I had to relax and get smart. So do you.

***First of all, there are statistics that tell big business that this is great for business. They aren't interested in your family...they are interested in money. It may gall you....but there is a whole group of folks out there that say this is a good thing for careers, and believe it can be done without creating risk for marriages.***

I'm well aware of this. I used to work for the same company. I used to have an article that happily explained how encouraging opposite-sex co-workers to work very closely together, and using their sexual energy to keep them happy and hard-working, was a GREAT way to get production up. Unfortunately, they've changed the link and I no longer have this one. I should have downloaded it.

***It's a fallacy....but one that fighting head on....as you're trying to do....is going to damage your marriage even more.***

Well, he certainly insists it is. And he's right. There were never any problems between us, to speak of. If I could just accept these women in his life, especially those in the past, everything would be great. Why can't I just do that?

***You can hang onto the fact that it's just plain WRONG....and you'd be right. But the question is, do you want to be "right" or do you want to be happy?***

I have no idea how I can be happy when he has successfully defended these women, and their actions, while letting me suffer. Seriously. How do I do that? How can I be happy when every time I look at him I see how determined he is to forever protect them at my expense, and know that he's proud and happy of having done that?

***If you're smart about this, you're going to ditch the resentment,***

No one else here would resent the fact that the OP will be protected at all costs while the wife will just have to take care of herself, and can "[censored] Off and Get Out" (his words) if she's upset by this?

***the list of specific apologies (which seem like overkill and make you look impossible to please)***

I got the idea for that from a thread on this site. Everyone who posted there was very enthusiastic about it and said it helped them a great deal.

It really struck me that something like this would help me, because I had been deceived and lied to for so long by the master of the Word Game that I can never be sure what the meaning of "is" is. Hearing *specifics* would have helped me greatly and after his ten years of fun with other women, I thought it would be a small price for him to pay. But don't worry -- he has set me straight. He's not sorry for any of his actions *or* for any of these women's actions, except for being "sorry he hurt me."

***and start addressing some good marital boundaries that can protect your marriage from being vulnerable to something that is NOT going to go away anytime soon.***

You can say that again. His last favorite female friend still sits right outside his office door. The last person he hired is a young, cute female who is in the habit of wearing very low-cut shirts and sweaters, so that she's constantly on display. (The last one used to deliberatly bend over in front of him every chance she got, so I guess it was time for a change.) He gets very angry if I am upset about any of this. Empathy, anyone?

***With my husband, we set up these boundaries:
****he invites me to all company events when possible***

Oh, so sorry! With very few exceptions, it's No Spouses Allowed at company functions. And even though he is a high-level manager with plenty of influence, gosh, there's just never been one thing he can do about this one.

I did go to a client dinner with him once. It is extrememly uncomfortable for me to do this because -- I realize now -- all of his friends and co-workers there are so used to seeing him with his Female Friends, while ignoring me, that they just assume there must have been something wrong with me since he never wanted anything to do with me, even when I worked there.

You have to realize, I did not know the extent of his activities until it was far too late to do anything about it. This man has so utterly humilated me by his public actions with these women that I have no face to show at his workplace anymore. Is anyone familiar with the Japanese concept of "losing face?" That is exactly how I feel.

Make no mistake: if I thought he was truly remorseful about this behavior and was no longer making excuses for the women involved, I would do everything in my power to rejoin his work life. But he is NOT sorry -- he has made that very, very clear -- and he CONTINUES to excuse and defend these women.

Next suggestion?

****he doesn't lunch, ride in the car etc alone with women....it has to be a group outing***

Well, now, you have to be real specific here. I used to think "group outing" was okay too, until:

1) I happened to see him in his car one day with not one, not two but THREE cute young office bimboes in his car on their way back from lunch. By this definition, this would be okay because it's a group.

2) There is a married couple who work for him who are also his personal friends. I thought they were my friends too, but I know better now. I know *now* that there have been times when this married couple have sat across a table from him when he was sitting not with me but with one of his favorite women from work. This sickens me, but he insists it was okay because "they all worked together" -- the same line that excuses and justifies EVERYTHING.

Also, he has told me that there will no doubt be times when he has to take a woman off-site for a "Teambuilding" or a "One-on-One" or an "Employee Evaluation." Of couse, the difference is, now he'll tell me about it and that should be all I need. If I think this is inappropriate (not to mention ridiculous, as if they don't have meeting rooms in their multi-million dollar corporate center,) what can I do about it? Discuss it with him? Tell him I find this hurtful and disrespectful and to please not do it again? Do you know how well that worked before? It never made any difference at all. And he has just told me that there WILL be times when he will do this again.

Go ahead, tell me that this is all "normal business behavior" and I should just swallow it. I DID SWALLOW IT FOR YEARS. All it did was make a complete and utter fool of me and leave me sitting alone waiting for my husband while I thought he was "working," when he was really socializing with other women with the blessings of his company and getting all wrapped up in THEIR lives instead of mine.

And he's not sorry he did this.

****he doesn't share his personal life with them or confide in them***

I have no way of knowing whether he still does this or not. He was the biggest Knight in Shining Armor/Rod Rescueman that place ever saw (so long as you were young, cute, flirtatious and female.) It's his management style (yes, he's told me this,) and he did this so well and for so long and was so well rewarded for it both personally and professionally that it's very hard for me to believe he'd ever really change.

****he talks about his schedule and his day openly with me.***

Sure, sometimes he tells me stuff. I have no way of knowing if I'm getting whole story or not. I cannot set foot on the property and wouldn't, even if I could -- his last favorite pal is still right there, remember? I really don't care to watch him worry about HER instead of worrying about how I feel having to see her still sitting there.

I used to think I knew what was going on, until I found out I had been royally fooled and lied to by both him *and* his female co-workers and that their actions toward me -- rudeness, cold shoulder, and outright lies and drunken insults --did not bother him one bit.

And he is not sorry for this. They did nothing wrong. They were just working together. He doesn't know why they would be rude to me. One was "just shy and misunderstood" and the other was "just drunk" and he can't believe she'd talk like that anyway. He believes her, not me. And even if he did believe me, so what, he doesn't care!

***Let him know that you understand what team building is supposed to do (so he knows you understand his position...validation) and why you think it can be a risk for marriages. Ask him if the two of you can set up some boundaries that will make you feel more comfortable so that he can conduct business in the environment that is available to him.***

There are few things I hate more than Teambuilding. Yes, we've talked the above topics to death. I have no way of knowing what really goes on in that place. He was too good a liar before, and it frightens me to know that. I never, ever thought he would lie to me and deceive me, but he did, and he succeeded 100%. How would I know NOW what's a lie and what isn't?

***And stop blowing your top about this stuff or you will make your marriage SO vulnerable that all your fears will have tremendous power and push him right into the arms of one of these waiting opportunists.***

Well, of course I will! Isn't it nice the way that works out? And when he does, it will be my fault!

When I gave him all the trust and space any man could ever want, he used that trust and space to go out and hook up with other women.

When I started worrying and tried to reason with him about how his behavior was starting to hurt me, he laughed at me, patted me on the head, started hiding things better, and went out and hooked up with other women.

When I finally lost it because I found out that he never knocked it off and had gone right on lieing to me and deceiving me, and REALLY lost it because it finally hit me that he is not and never will be sorry -- of course! What else COULD he do but go out and hook up with other women?

I LOVE the way that one works!

***My H's company actually had team building activities like volley ball on the beach with no wives.....but secretaries in bikinis....Taking clients to strip clubs could be expensed!***

Naw, he did the strip clubs on his own time when he was on the road. Another nice surprise for his wife, who had actually told him that she'd be okay with the occasional bachelor party, etc., at a strip club as long as she knew about it. He *still* lied and sneaked out anyway. So much for that!

***....so if you think I don't "get it" you're wrong. I hate this stuff....but it did me know good to just get angry, I had to relax and get smart. So do you.***

Would you please explain what you mean by "relax and get smart?" He'd like nothing better than for me to just "relax," because then his female friends would all remain protected and he wouldn't have his mean old wife saying mean things about them (though when one of them insulted me to my face at a party, his sympathies and concern were all for HER. Poor thing, she was very drunk you know, and she's REALLY not like that . . . never mind how she made me feel. He was only worried about her poor drunken [censored] AND STILL IS.)

Sorry to have gone on so long. Right now, I am in a tremendous amount of shock and pain from having to swallow the fact that he is not and never will be sorry for his actions, and will forever excuse and protect these women.

It's like eating ground glass. It hurts going down and it hurts even more after you've swallowed it.

If it wasn't wrong BEFORE -- and he insists it was not -- why on earth would it be wrong NOW???
This makes NO SENSE WHATEVER to me!

I could deal with this if I thought he was truly remorseful and would stop protecting these women. But he's not sorry and they did nothing wrong. End of story.

p_b

Put on your flame resistant jammies....this is the harshest post I have ever written <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> , and I am certain it will probably do no good. I know you want empathy, and I would gladly (much RATHER) give it to you if I believed there was ANY chance at all of reaching you after 2 and half years of constant empathy from this board.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could deal with this if I thought he was truly remorseful </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe you. You registered in April of 2001. Your original post is almost identical to this post. You have had basically over two years of empathy and suggestions from others, with zero change, zero forgiveness and a complete unwillingness to consider any other course besides hanging onto your resentment and vilifying your husband. I can find no self examination at all, and plenty of evidence that if your husband wants any respect at all....he may have to seek it elsewhere. If you're going to play the martyr....expect the possibility that you may be burned on the cross. You can't be helped here if you won't consider the possibilty that you are approaching this subject from a losing position. If he is as awful as you say.....then for god's sake.....leave him. Go to plan B. But stop asking for advice you have no intention of taking. If you want to stay with this man you are going to have to make a DECISION to ditch the resentment, accept what you cannot change, and choose to be a happier individual. Your husband is only half of the problem. You can't change that. But you can change you. When you are ready....I would love to help you.

I am a really nice person and saying this to you makes me very sad and kinda sick. So I'm apologizing right now for the pain these words have caused you, but I am begging you to stop and smell the roses. Don't go through life with the glass half empty.....you are MISSING your life!!!! You have spent YEARS of it obsessing over this same issue. You are the captain of your own ship p_b. The people who get past this realize that happiness is a CHOICE. You have control over whether you are happy.....if you deny that, you lose the power that each of us possess to control our own destiny. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

duplicate

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: psycho_b ]</small>

<<<I could deal with this if I thought he was truly remorseful.>>>

<<<I don't believe you.>>>

Thank you.

I think your post has had its intended effect. I feel even worse now than I did when I woke up this morning. Again, thank you.

Let me make sure I am reading you correctly. The specific advice is that I should accept that he will never apologize, and I should accept that he will always excuse and protect these other women, and I should somehow find a way to live with that. Am I correct?

Besides Plan B/Plan D/moving out and moving on, is accepting these things the only option anyone here sees for me?

Would someone here please explain to me why other people are allowed to want apologies, and allowed to want information, and allowed to tell their WSs that it hurts like a knife when they protect the OP -- but I am not?

Or is my problem that I could not take "no" for an answer from him, and just kept on pushing him for too long?

apologize, and I should accept that he will always excuse and protect these other women, and I should somehow find a way to live with that. Am I correct?
That is a very real possibility. Harley says it should not be looked at as if it will definitely happen.

Would someone here please explain to me why other people are allowed to want apologies, and allowed to want information, and allowed to tell their WSs that it hurts like a knife when they protect the OP -- but I am not?
You can "want" as long, as hard and as strong as you want to but that doesn't mean you will get anything.

Hi pb. Sorry you're feeling so badly about this mess your H has created. I recently came to the realization that for some people, both men and women, there is nothing anybody can say that will make them realize their mistakes and sorry for what they've done. You H is in that group and so is mine.

I disagree with starfish on most of her points to you. I don't post much any more but I could write thread after thread after thread that could look exactly as my first post back in 2001. I've been to counseling, I've plan A'd, we've separated, reconciled, I did the infamous 180, I've LB'd, been docile, and everything in between and still here we are 2 years later and my H is still a rockhead about what he has done and he doesn't understand that it has changed me forever.

My best advice to you is to take some time for yourself and decide what you can live with and where your bottom line is then make some decisions. I don't think your H is going to change the way he feels because he honestly and truly believes that he is giving you the best he has to give. Maybe a good counselor would help him but I doubt you could ever convince him to go (just like me and my H). Can you accept what remose he has shown and move on? That isn't a suggestion, just a question. Only you know what you can live with.

I'll be thinking about you and wishing you some peace of mind.

p_b, "Besides Plan B/Plan D/moving out and moving on, is accepting these things the only option anyone here sees for me?"

Why would the above be exceptions? I have no idea of the history, but obviously star*fish does, and honestly, I do not want to make you feel worse either, but you said yourself-he is not showing any remorse and making you feel like you are wrong. You have stood your ground and gotten nowhere, he obviously only wants to work on the marriage on his terms-which if you ask me, are unacceptable, so yes, Plan B or move on seem to be your only options. You have the power-don't wait for him to change-he may never do this...you are missing out on life being angry at someone who doesn't even deserve the energy it takes for you to be angry....

You have every right to see remorse and apologies, but the fact that he thinks he has nothing to apolgize for shows what type of person he is...I am sorry-can't back you up on this one....I do believe you need to plan B...

Hang in there...

I believe what Starfish was saying is that you choose whether to be happy or not. You CANNOT choose to have your husband be remourseful. You don't get to choose whether or not he decides to remain a lunkhead or not. You do get to choose whether or not your current arrangement is filling your needs and fits your idea of what a marriage should be. If it's not, then you get to choose to remain in it or move on.

If you're in the same marriage you had 2 years ago, then you need to figure out if you're doing the right things. If you are, then you need to figure out if there's any reason left to stay. If there is, then you need to figure out how you're going to be happy in the marriage THE WAY IT IS. If it isn't good enough, then leave.

That is, by the way, the very same advice I, as a wayward spouse asking if I should stay or go, got by many BS's. I posted and posted and posted VALID reasons why my H was an incurable lunkhead and how I had done absolutely everything in my power to change him and he wouldn't. I was the perfect wife, by the way. It was all his fault. Yup... Funny how a few years can change ones perspective on things.

You have choices. Making him change isn't one of them. The question now is what's the next choice?

psychob,

It is so funny, my FWS ow called and left a message saying that she had talked to a mutual friend and heard that he was back with the psycho b!tch from h$ll. So I just feel like I have a bit of a connection to you and have always read your posts, although I respond to few.

I don't pretend to know what is going on with you, it sounds like you have been between a rock and a hard place for a long time.

Have you thought about a plan A? My FWS had an epiphany. No remorse at first. It came later when I truely met his EN's.

However, I do suspect a little narcissism (sp?) on your H part. Maybe a little research on that and how to deal with it would help.

Reacting is not healthy. Acknowledging anger is okay, just not acting out on it. No one here is saying you don't have a right to be angry. But how you react to it is another thing. If you really love your H and want to continue, just step back from your emotions and think of what the healthiest way is to deal with the situation. What is best for you and spouse, family, etc. Just MVHO.

I pray that you can learn to step back a little. Although you H is not remorseful, he HAS apologized. Perhaps time for a plan A. There are a few postitives to your situation.

Try to focus on these. I could be all wet here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Just want you to know I feel your pain and pray for you.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Hope4Future-can you e-mail me offline at dlmelanson@eastlink.ca???

p_b,

I am willing, and I am really not used to it, to allow you to absolutely hate me for the opportunity to help you. It isn't easy telling someone that after all this time, and all this heartache (and knowing what it feels like) that they don't have many options left. But that is the sad and honest truth. It's humbling to realize that even if I try my hardest...I will probably not reach you....to know....that with the advice given to you over more than two years, you have made no progress. I spent an incredible amount of my time looking back at all of your threads and found no evidence of any progress in more than two years. He won't apologize. You won't let go. You are at an IMPASSE.

Of course, the big reason you have made no progress is because the situation hasn't changed (he hasn't changed).....and you refuse to change. Both of those things will cripple you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Would someone here please explain to me why other people are allowed to want apologies, and allowed to want information, and allowed to tell their WSs that it hurts like a knife when they protect the OP -- but I am not?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You ARE allowed.....very much allowed. You have been allowed to expect these things for a very long time....but how long do you choose to expect/want these things and not have them before choosing option B or D????? It isn't in your best interest to do so....and I would be remiss if I didn't say so. If I told you that you should go on expecting something you apparently have no hope of getting....I would do a HUGE disservice to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me make sure I am reading you correctly. The specific advice is that I should accept that he will never apologize, and I should accept that he will always excuse and protect these other women, and I should somehow find a way to live with that. Am I correct?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No....the advice is that if you CAN'T accept or find a way to live with what is obviously not going to change....that YOU must change. Change the way you deal with this, or consider a different option...which might be Plan B or D. Learn some other options besides constant conflict which might include the exploration of marital boundaries....but you aren't open to hearing it. Your only other option apparently....aside from acceptance, Plan B or D......is a life of unhappiness. What is your choice?

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

I really REALLY like your advice starfish...and your new sig line!

zachsmom, I'll try...I don't get much focused pc time, but I'll try to get out an email as soon as I can!

p_b

What is the best (current) thing about your marriage ?

What qualities in your H are you grateful for on a daily basis?

What are your very best and most reliable ways to meet your H's needs?

Let's change the mood in our discussion for awhile. OK?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psycho_b:
<strong>
The thing that makes me the craziest, the thing I absolutely CANNOT STAND, is to hear him protect and defend these women IN ANY WAY. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is one way to keep him from defending them--don't attack them. It was the most effective way I could have ever thought of. When I stopped attacking his exOW, he stopped defending her and when he stopped defending her my anger toward her subsided. Make them a non-issue in your life, in your marriage. This is not about them and their behavior. It is about him and his behavior (and you and yours).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psycho_b:
<strong>What do I do with all this rage and torment? What do the rest of you do?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly? I pray. If you want to know how much I have to forgive, take a look at my sig line.

Eventually reconciling with a partner who has had an affair comes down to accepting. No amount of regret on his part will ever change the facts of what happened. That doesn't mean that we forget or we approve. With gentle love, guidance and forgiveness, I have helped my husband find his way back to me.

You are stuck. Can you think of a way to get unstuck? I swear if I had beat up my husband with my rage they way you appear to be beating up on yours, we would not be together today. Our two kids would still be moldering in an Eastern European orphanage and we would not be the happy family we have become.

You have a right to your feelings; you also have a right to change your feelings. You have a right to divorce if that is what you want to do. You do not have to stay stuck where you are. Your husband may never see things from your point of view--he isn't you and many people in the world have the view point that if nothing physical happened then they haven't crossed any boundaries. I disagree and so, obviously, do you. Some people don't agree that playing golf in all your spare time is wrong either--we just know that it is wrong if your it takes you away from your spouse and children and you still want to have a happy marriage.

Others have pointed out that remorse comes slowly for some WS. In a restored marriage, he would be much more likely to feel remorse, but that first involves you letting go of some of your anger. It doesn't matter that you didn't start out so angry; it only matters that you are out-of-control angry now. What are YOU going to do about that? Have you considered an anger management class? Of course you have a right to be angry, so does anyone who, for example, gets cut off by a careless or reckless driver. It is what we do with our anger that makes the difference. Do we self-soothe or do we escalate and make a bad situation worse?

MJ

***What is the best (current) thing about your marriage ?***

That he's still here, I guess.

***What qualities in your H are you grateful for on a daily basis?***

Currently? He is very good with our son and with Son's friends. He pays all the bills so I can stay home and be a novelist (not much money in that) and keep an eye on Son.

***What are your very best and most reliable ways to meet your H's needs?***

His top three on the EN questionnaire were admiration, affection, and sex. I have found no reliable way to meet all of these myself, even though I sure tried for many years and *thought* that's what I was doing. I don't think it's possible for one person to give him all he needs of these three things. I used to try my best and *thought* I had done so, until I found out I was dead wrong about that.

<<<There is one way to keep him from defending them--don't attack them. It was the most effective way I could have ever thought of. When I stopped attacking his exOW, he stopped defending her and when he stopped defending her my anger toward her subsided. Make them a non-issue in your life, in your marriage.>>>

Well, of course. This is exactly what he wants. That way, he can still keep them as happy memories and have no regrets at all about his actions with them.

He can still reminisce and discuss them with his other co-workers, talking about all the great times they used to have together (and they do.) Don't forget, the last one is right beside his office door all day, every day and gee, wouldn't it be nice if they could be friends again? After all, his wife has learned to accept her now!

He is being strongly pressured from work to do exactly that. This girl/thing outside his office door used to work for him. Now she works for another (female) manager who has also known my H for a long time. This female manager has actually contacted my H and wanted to know why he and girl/thing are not great friends the way they were before, because girl/thing feels sooo bad about it!

This is what I am up against on a daily basis. Sorry, I know I am not supposed to be angry about it.

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