When this woman decides to love another down the road someday, will you bow out gracefully?<P>

Carlton,<P>No offense (well, maybe a little bit...) but, <P>zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz<P>This is MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Unless your sole purpose is to shake things up a bit, you've gotta know you are in the wrong place to discuss your future with this MWW (still don't know what that means). Everyone here is rebuilding AFTER infidelity, or at least trying to. Are you seriously expecting someone to give you some support and encouragement in pursing this relationship?<P>Come on man ...........<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Carlton - I find it interesting that you titled this thread "courage". Real courage would be for you to step aside completely and let this poor woman figure things out for herself and allow her to try to save her marriage if that is possible.<P>Real courage is to back off and leave her alone until SHE makes her own decisions. Even if you don't intend it, you provide cover for her not to address her own issues. You provide an escape valve. This is not fair to her, her H or even you.<P>The affair encourages lying and deceit. You cannot realistically want a relationship that was begun under falsehoods. I am a betrayed male, but I understand and sympathize with how you feel, however you are being a real a**hole here.<P>Whether you realize it or not, you are providing undue pressure to someone who doesn't need it.<P>Back off. If your relationship was meant to be, she will end her marriage and come to you. Your current attitude indicates a complete and total lack of judgement on your part.

Hi Carlton<P>I see you are here to help you keep this MWW after she leaves her H (and children?). You want this MWW and you will learn as much as possible here to keep her. What I think you should do is try to understand that she at one time did love her H and her life. Something happened in her marriage to make her seek comfort elsewhere. This MWW may not realize yet what she is doing and will not wake up until she actually leaves her old life. When she wakes up you will no longer seem worth all the pain she has caused her H and children and you will then feel the pain. <P>Save this MWW from making a very painfull mistake. Let her have the knowledge here to rebuild her marriage, to save her children and H from unbelievable pain which is about to unfold. I do not doubt that you "love" this MWW and she may feel "love" for you but with some help from Marriage Builders she can replace your "love" with her H love and they can and will be happy as well as her children.<P>Life is too short... give MWW children and H a chance. They deserve it and you can provide them this opportunity. Think about them and not about yourself.<P>Thank You

Carlton - Have you ever had kids? The future you see with the MWW will involve those kids. They will blame you for the marriage ending whether it is your fault or not, even if you are a wonderful person. How do you plan to overcome this? I ask because even though my children have met the OM and my wife has seen him walk on water, they blame him for my wife and I not working things out. I discourage hate, but they don't have to like him.

For a second put yourself in her H's place. How would you feel knowing this "better half of a perfect and fulfilling long-term relationship" was with an other man? Don't think of yourself, think of the family you are helping to pull apart. Step back and give her space and time to think straight (something I'm sure she is not doing with you around). Growning up I'm sure you were taught right from wrong. All I am asking is you do what you already know is right.

What's REAL and what is not? The human mind is limited in what it can perceive. There are always so many influencing factors that color what we see. Put yourself into the position SHE'S been in. A difficult, perhaps painful point in her marriage. Doesn't know what to do, where to turn. You show up. Now consider this as a possibility: You become her fantasy. YOU become her way out. Yes, she can see it now - the solution is so right, so easy. In short, you've become her narcotic. You don't see that and she'd be the last to realize it. What's happened is that your simple presence as the seed for her fantasy (anyone would have done - you were convenient) has CHANGED the dynamic of her world, her life. You didn't have to be particularly supportive, just THERE. You didn't even have to be yourself! Her image of you is the one she wants to be true. Given the complex and difficult emotional situation she's in, there's little likelyhood that her image of you with the signicance she's given it aligns well with your own reality. What internal needy world is she appeasing when she uses her image of you to avoid facing her real family conflicts? What is it that she SEES when she looks you in the eyes? Infatuation is as real to those who experience it as the illness is to the hypochondriac. Each has a need. Each eventually wakes up to the PARTICULAR delusion and moves on. Neither has addressed the true problem. Don't be an enabler! Don't allow your own tinted view of yourself the righteousness! We believe what we want to. Examine yourself. No, I mean REALLY examine yourself.

David P. > Good point. What is reality, anyway ? What is normal ? The accepted norms in our society are changing. Painful as it is for those of us who have been raised in traditional families, it is just the way it is. <P>For a long time, social "scientists" defined family in a way that reflected culture's common knowledge: " . . . a social group characterized by common residence, economic cooperation, and reproduction. It includes adults of both sexes, at least two of who maintain a socially approved sexual relationship, and one or more children, own or adopted, of the sexually cohabitating adults . . . "<P>Today, in America, this definition is proved too limited. For one thing, it excludes many kinds of groups that seem to deserve the label of "family". In our country, single-parent families are widely recognized. In some kibbutsim societies, the children sleep apart from their parents. <P>So what is normal ? The world throughout history goes marching two by two. From Noah's Ark to today's society, and in a world that counts by twos, the pressure to marry has been overwhelming.<P>So I am 45, single and never married. Guess that makes me abnormal ? Hmmm . . .<P>More self-examination . . . <P>I don't think so. Between 1960 and 1975, the number of adults between the ages of 20 and 34 who have never been married increased by 50 percent, while in the same period the divorce rate doubled. By the way, today, 39 percent of first marriages end in divorce within ten years . . . 50 percent of second marriages end within five years.<P>You see, women now have rights. Stuff like equal opportunity in hiring practices and therefore, women now are provided with greater opportunities for financial independence.<P>And herein lies the root of such perceptions of marriage and family and the stereotypical condemnation of my "bucking" the norm. What is accepted, and what is reality, appears to be two different things.<P>Are adult singles deviant, immature, sexually deviant, freer than the married person, happy/lonely, and just plain weird ?<P>Given these beliefs, it is not surprising that we are taught early in life that to be truly happy and fulfilled, we must get married and take on the responsibilities of raising a family. Marriage, then, is the social norm, and remaining unmarried or choosing singlehood leads to negative stereotypes, biases, and discrimination.<P>So it is not surprising that three out of four divorced people remarry, and about half of these marriages occur within three years of the divorce. Half of the young children alive today will spend some time in a single-parent family before they reach 18.<P>Cohabitation before marriage existed in the 1960s, but it was frowned upon. Today, it is widely accepted; it will likely become more common in the future. Yet we argue that cohabitation is less an alternative to marriage than a precursor to marriage. <P>Just the way it is, boys and girls. Expect to see an increase in the number of people who never marry. Women no longer "need" a man to exist in today's society. The future simply isn't what it used to be, and I can accept that. I'm not looking for a wife. I think I've found a friend. And I support her however I can, and admittedly at a great risk to my own serenity. Just call me selfish for not clinging to tradition.

So lotsa people don't get married. Fine. If this is how they choose to lead their life, then more power to them (and you).<P>So lotsa people get divorced. Does this make it "right"? Absolutely not. Prisons are overcrowded & we can't build enough of them. According to you, crime is okay "because everyone does it". If one does not believe in the sanctity of marriage and ALL that it entails, then don't get married. You stand up in front of friends, family, each other & God & swear a commitment to each other for life! No where have I heard any marriage vows say, "until you get tired or something better comes along".<P>It's great that you want to help out someone in a tight spot. However, the person you chose to help is in a spot that she absolutely does not need you or any other man except her Husband or a counselor. Whether you belive it or not, she is getting signals from you which are causing her to question her marriage a heck of a lot more than if you weren't around.<BR>"When I'm around my H I feel terrible, but when I'm around Carlton I feel great, so my Husband MUST be the problem" is probably how she is thinking.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

TO CARLTON:Well i have come to your rescue,i am a 36 year old woman who has been married for 17 years and we have 2 kids together,i don't want to get slammed on here so i would love to talk to you via e-mail or icq,e-mail me at chatwithu35@hotmail.com....i too am in love with another man and am so confused about what to do although i know my heart is with him......looking forward to talking with you soon ok......JANICE.....;-)

Fine! Well, I'm glad that's settled. Perhaps you could start your own website. (You don't seem to pay attention well enough to grasp other's viewpoints.) You can go now, but be aware that more than your serenity may be at risk.

Carlton<P>Lets stay focused on this one issue for a second.<P>Facts<P>You are single and you want a wife/ MWW.<BR>MWW is in a bad marriage.<P>You have knowledge that will help MW to save her marriage which will also save her children and her H from unbeliveable pain.<BR>MW lacks this knowledge to save her marriage.<P>What are you going to do?

Carlton,<P>That's all fine and dandy until you factor kids into the equation. This has become a selfish, self-centered society... can you now dazzle us with statistics on how all this has impacted the children from generation to generation? We have to teach our kids about sex and drugs and violence at younger and younger ages... more and more pre-adolescent kids are dealing with addictions and depression, kids are left to deal with these things on they're own because their selfish, self-centered parents aren't paying attention. <P>The only upside is that some kids are also seeking recovery sooner... they suffer earlier, recover earlier, develop a sense of values... unfortunately they learn it from the treatment centers instead of from their parents. It may take several generations, but the respect for the marriage and the family unit will return... society cycles from one extreme to the other until we choose to start learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them. <BR> <BR>No, You should not stay in a bad marriage just for the sake of the children... when you realize the marriage is failing, you should face the problems and fix them and make the marriage and the family better... rather than just running away..., you do this for the sake of the children, and yourself and your partner... this is love... but this approach requires maturity from both partners. Society in general is very immature.<P>IMHO<P>[This message has been edited by yy (edited September 15, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by yy (edited September 15, 1999).]

YY > One out of four children is not living with both parents. Teenage pregancies are up. The future looks bleak . . . <P>So what about the children ? In 1940, only about one out of seven married women worked outside the home; today the proportition is one out of two. Three-fifths of all divorces involve couples with children living at home. Nine out of ten . . . women retain custody of the children after separation. About half of the children whose parents had divorced hadn't seen their fathers in the last year.<P>Of course, absent fathers are supposed to make child-support payments, but only a minority do. In a 1979 US. Bureau of Census survey, 43 percent of all divorced and separated women with children present reported receiving child-support payments during the previous year, and the average anuual payment was about $1,900. Thus, the most detrimental effect for children living in a single-parent family is not the lack of a male presence but the lack of a male income.<P>And guess what ? Times are a changin' . You look for a quick fix to all the social ills as being found in the family, yet the family is one of many social institutions that seems to be influenced by the changes occuring in the others. In our government, our schools, and in the world we live in today. <P>By the year 2006, 40 percent of our nation's workforce will be working from home (as I do) and therefore, the typical scenereo of who is going to watch the kids while the other works will change with, or without, the male's approval. I can accept it, but evidently most men see this as a threat to their own insecurities and resent not having the financial control over "their women" . . . THEIR wives . . . <P>So I support my friends endeavor to realize true independence without submission. And if the end result is my being left behind, so be it. Perhaps one day her daughter will not meet a guy like me, and need a true friend to help her fly from the wretched world we men have created for "our women" to exist in.

Carlton<P>Believe it or not you are part of MWW problem when you could be a part of her solution.<P>You lure MWW away from her family by giving her a false sense of happiness when you could be supporting her to stay and repair her family.<P>You have the knowledge but refuse to give it to her. You are with-holding information from MWW in making the right choice for her, her children and H.<P>Please answer... <BR>Do you think that if MWW and her H seek professional help that they can be happy?<P>

Sad isn't it...<P>No, the quick fix is not found in the family per se... there is no quick fix. The hope is in maturity and respect... in the ability to appreciate a commitment before you make it, and abide by that commitment when you do. If you choose marriage and family, you stick with it, nuture it, let it grow... yes that's very difficult when both partners don't participate. If you do not choose marriage you have the maturity to respect those that do and let them work through their own issues.<P>

Toronto> It doesn't really matter what I think. All I know is what she has told me, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. Evidently, intensive counseling has led both MWW and H to conclude that their separation is, in fact, the best thing to do for themselves and for the children. <P>And I am not "luring" anyone away from their family, nor do I wish to be any semblance of a solution. Nor do I have any desire to make any decisions for MWW, or H, or children. Get over it. <P>In time, I hope to offer much more than I can realistically offer now to the woman I love and care for. But in the meantime, all that I can do is keep my promise to remain true to my word that I will not run when the shooting starts. This divorce of hers will be ugly, and brutal, and it will have all the hateful resentments you have mentioned. Issues will evolve that I am trying to understand, and prepare myself to meet and hopefully, be in a better place to help one another work through them. <P>The children are not mine. I am not their father, nor ever will be. The MWW is not mine. I am not her husband, nor do I have any desire to "lay claim" to entitlements perceived as guaranteed by contractual agreement. My religion forbids marriage to a divorced woman as long as the husband lives, and I have no intention of wish him anything less than long life, and the rewards that come from seeing his children grow and learn from our mistakes. <P>The 21st Century just won't go away, and if we can not accept life on life's terms, then each and every generation will be as lost as ours seems to have been struggling with living as our parents, and as our "fantacies" would have us do. When it comes right down to it, living and loving for today is all that we have been promised by our Creator. And this is good enough for me . .

Carlton,<BR>I have been reading all this and I really think you are enjoying all this. I think this is a game to you to see just how many people you can upset here. If this is not a game you have a lot of growing up to do. You seem not to have any character or integrity and my biggest question in my mind is that you being her rescuer from a bad marriage and all, how much have you been helping her to come to the conclusion that she has a bad marriage. How long have you been a part of the erosion of her relationship with her H. From the sounds of it, you have all the words and justifications and the data to fit perfectly into what you want the end to be, her leaving him to be with you. To read all your crap is quite honestly very funny, it gives me a good impression that if my W OM is spewing this garbage like you are I can see why affairs blowup. If you believe all this "live for today" stuff how will you feel if she does the same to you. Bet your data will all of a sudden change and you will be cryin poor me......<BR>People like you who can knowingly destroy a family will never stop astounding me. You should get to know her husband to find out who you will be hurting, see her children knowing that you are a big part of the reason mommy and daddy will not be living together anymore. Guess it doen't matter with someone like you, just another justification for you to have to think of right? But in reading your posts, you are very good at it, so much for concience.

MKN > Exactly why I am not abandoning MWW when so many tell me I should . . . the children. Neither MWW nor myself have ever lost focus as to the primary issue, MWW and H's children. So she decided sometime ago to break the cycle, and perhaps her daughter will not be as "happy" as many women today find themselves. Married to, and making love with, a man they no longer love for no other reason than it is the "right" thing to do. Then along comes a guy like me, who just got lucky I guess. No ex-wives, no children or child support from previous marriages/relationships . . . so excuse me for being available at an opportune moment when OM meets MWW accidently, and perhaps unfortunately for H . . . at a very low point in their marriage. <P>And again, not my kids . . . Okay ? These children are for MWW and ex-H to raise . . . albeit separately. So it goes with reality. I do not crave the "immortality" of "my seed" being carried into the next generation. However, I do crave and desire the freely-shared affection and trust MWW and myself have realized. Sounds silly, doesn't it. Man will never fly, and all that. Just one of those old hippie things, I guess. But hey, I don't just play the music and then whack someone over the head with my guitar. I really do believe in loving if for no other reason than accepting and giving the gift it was meant to be, and do so without cluttering up the stage.

Somehow I don't think you give a rip what her children end up going through. You did not answer my question, how long have you been feeding her all your justifications to leave. Making yourself available to a woman who is vulnerable, at a low point in her marriage.... give me a break. Mr. big man there at a moments notice to tell her "yes you need your independance, think of yourself for a change, why live in this situation when you can be so much happier with me" is it stuff like that you say?. I know your type, you manipulate and intice and I bet when things don't start going your way you jet. Probably why you never married and you shouldn't, you don't know the first thing about it.<BR>I say it again you have no idea about character or integrity. I feel sorry for this woman you have involved yourself with, she doesn't stand a chance of seeing her H in an honest light with you around whispering this crap to her. She will probably walk out on her family, you will win and then you will probably "live for today" with someone elses wife and she will have to pick up her pieces and live out the mistake she made always wondering what kind of fool she was I to listen to this guy. Yes H's should hate you and women should avoid you.....<BR>Another step off my soapbox........ boy thats a big soapbox...<BR>Carlton, leave her alone or better yet give her justifications to make her marriage a great one.... I know this is falling on deaf ears but I thought I would try.