OK, let her scream divorce. Sounds like she uses this fear to manipulate you. Call her bluff. Or are you willing to continue your marriage living like this. It's a gamble whether she will divorce you or not, but isn't getting amrried in the first place? If not this crisis then isn't there another that will threaten the marriage too?

How has the fear of divorce kept you from having a real marriage, one based on love and not on fear.

Let that marriage go. Build a new one, and to do that, call her bluff on the divorce issue. Let that threat go. Let her know you are willing to divorce her if she goes through with it (what could you do anyway). She can't use that to control you anymore. You are willing to divorce her if that is waht she wants.

I think she will back down, I think she will find you again, but no one can know for certain. She stays with you now, she will not think divorce enough to go through with it. OM would not have her, and where would she turn...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
<strong>The biggest concern is does W act impulsively and scream for divorce? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that might just be an idle threat. If she really wanted a divorce, she would have already got one. No, she is just using that threat to manipulate you. But lets say she does want a divorce over this. Wouldn't that mean that she would rather destroy her family than give up this flirtation? That she has such a profound lack of respect for her spouse that she would insist on hurting you over and over again........for this?

You know the situation best, but I wonder if it wouldn't have a greater impact if you called the OM or made arrangements to go meet with him. He needs to know how serious this really is. If you do this in mixed company he can accuse you of being a nut in mixed company. How will you react to that?

<small>[ August 13, 2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Wow! You ladies make an excellent point. How could she push for a divorce over this as her biggest fear is discovery. And if divorce is the path she will have to explain to everyone why she is walking away from what everyone perceives as a good husband and father. I haven't wanted to crush her but the bottom line is she is crushing me. And before the Love Bank is gone it is time for action. I don't want to keep living like this.

For what its worth I just ordered Not Just Friends and will recieve in a couple days. But ladies you have both made me finally see something and that is that I should live in fear or she'll never respect me anyway.

I have also learned some things from Sinere1's exchanges about the state of mind of WS in an EA.

There can be no love if respect is absent from a relationship. Plan B is very important because it is the acid test that will determine if the marriage is salvageable or not. The problem is that many BS's are afraid to find out the truth about their marriages and tolerate accepting what normally would be the unacceptable. Although sometimes I wonder if some of these same BS's tolerate their WS's behavior because they are subconciously hoping to lose all love for their WS's to make the decision to end the marriage an easy one to make.

That is an interesting notion, waiting till losing all love so it makes the end tolerable. So BS's aren't really martyrs, we're just dealing with our grief in the M so we don't have to deal with it afterward.

I get the sense that you sometimes wonder if you should be making a big deal about the EA. My H's counselor has told him that his EA was not an A because they didn't have SEX (as if necking in the car was not enough). Balderdash...she is withholding love from your R and sharing it with someone else, and she is LYING about it. If that is not an A, then I don't know what an A is.
Why would she lie about her contact with him if she wasn't ashamed and felt it was wrong...

Plan B may be necessary, but what will your's look like? Do you have a plan?

I like the idea of confronting the OM...maybe do it with GF present.

TMCM, I'm starting to gain some strength from talking to everyone. I watched Jen Brown's case so closely hoping for a happy ending. But as accomodating as she was her husband still disappointed us all in the end. I mention her because of the tremendous patience she showed in trying to save the marriage.

But I can tell you I am not hoping subconsciously that my love for her dies. After seeing what's possible I hope to have a great marriage where all of Harley's principals are observed. Finally I agree with you wholeheartedly about no respect - no love. My wife had a problem with a parent at a soccer game the other night and chastised me for not calling this guy and telling him off. In other words she wanted me to defend her and I failed (forget that she doesn't defend me). Anyway she called me an F'n Wuss. While it was a heat of the moment comment it did speak volumes about her lack of respect. I have since called this parent who offered an apology.

I really like the ladies idea of telling the other man about the phone calls. Even if I'm not ready for plan B and even if the phone calls don't stop it certainly punctures the balloon and lets me wife know I may not stop just at discussion the phone calls. But most importantly it gives me back some dignity, some control.

Thank you all.

That is an interesting notion, waiting till losing all love so it makes the end tolerable.
This is the main point of the book, “Surviving An Affair.” It is NOT (necessarily) saving the marriage. It is getting through an affair and the crap it dregs up with;
a – much less trauma
b – learning about the relationship & what happened
c – learning about how a relationship CAN work with the right effort put into it

So BS's aren't really martyrs, we're just dealing with our grief in the M so we don't have to deal with it afterward.
BAM! Nail on the head.
This is one reason an affair will fall apart. Instead of dealing with the problems in the marriage, the ws had an affair and it felt good, so why deal with it (marriage/problems)?
After the “honeymoon” phase of the affair, the ws starts to see the problems in the marriage have usually followed into the new relationship because they did not deal with them previously.

This is also the reason one should not get involved with anyone else. The ws needs time to look at all this, process it and understand it. With someone else in the picture, you aren’t looking at the past because the present is pretty darn good.

I get the sense that you sometimes wonder if you should be making a big deal about the EA. My H's counselor has told him that his EA was not an A because they didn't have SEX (as if necking in the car was not enough). Balderdash
Very true.

I like the idea of confronting the OM...maybe do it with GF present.
Not really a good idea. Too much of a possibility to get ugly. I know it would probably feel good, but in the long run, it would probably hurt your case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">StillHereMakingIt:

"That is an interesting notion, waiting till losing all love so it makes the end tolerable. So BS's aren't really martyrs, we're just dealing with our grief in the M so we don't have to deal with it afterward."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said 'many' not 'all' BS's wait too long until they lose all of their love for the WS. This is not my layman opinion but that of Cerri, our resident MB coach, whose dealt with many BS's where that is precisely what happened.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Walkingoneggs:

"Finally I agree with you wholeheartedly about no respect - no love. My wife had a problem with a parent at a soccer game the other night and chastised me for not calling this guy and telling him off. In other words she wanted me to defend her and I failed (forget that she doesn't defend me). Anyway she called me an F'n Wuss. While it was a heat of the moment comment it did speak volumes about her lack of respect. I have since called this parent who offered an apology." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what do you think is going to happen ,long term ,to your love bank if you keep on getting disrespected by her in this manner?

StillMaking, you are correct that I can't seem to figure out how I should be reacting to EA. But the fact that W fights more and more about it tells me that it is intense EA.

TMCM, you're right and we're heading for a showdown. Worst case scenario is we'll stay married and we'll both be pissed off not just me anymore. I suppose when I look at it this way I have nothing to lose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Walkingoneggs:

"Worst case scenario is we'll stay married and we'll both be pissed off not just me anymore. I suppose when I look at it this way I have nothing to lose."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Worst case scenario is that you'll lose all your love left for your W and you will be vulnerable to having an affair(s) of your own, and she will have another A as well.

TMCM, you're very good at this. I have lately fantasized about having an affair with the 26GF so both OM and W can know the pain. While I don't fancy myself a stud I do nothing but deposit love units in this girls account everytime I'm in her company. Very dangerous and a sure fire way to end the M. Yes, I am in their company from time to time. I still do a good job with boundaries though. And I know that I couldn't look into my wifes eyes knowing I purposely hurt her to the core.

And the more your W disrespects you, the more that fantasy has a chance of turning into reality unless you take the necessary steps to follow a pro-marriage saving plan by a professional like Steve Harley or Penny Tupy.

TMCM, I have lately considered the counselling but at this point I know my W wouldn't join me. Therefore would it be worth going alone? I think if she saw that I was insisting on spending a considerable amount of money on councilling she might eventually asceed and join. It would seem to me that Penny is more capable of being flexible than Harley's. I don't mean I'm looking for wishy-washy but also a little more delicacy.
She seems to be the right choice so could you let me know how to get in touch?

I'm signing off for now and will take a look in the morning. Thanks.