I very much appreciate everyone's thoughts on DD's sleep habits. Still Seeking, I want to say to you in particular that DD goes to sleep at almost exactly the same time (8:15) every night she's with me, and sleeps through the night. No matter how I got there, I'm happy with that result. (I wish I could say I was that consistent about naps!) The consistency of that routine is very important to me, and it has certainly taken listening to some serious screaming to get there.

What I've always objected to is not the "crying it out" part. Babies cry, as you said, for lots of reasons. When it comes to sleep, rubbing those ears means you're going to bed no matter how much you cry about it! What I'm not interested in doing is making DD cry while I'm not there. If she's crying (really crying, not the transitional fussing that many babies do while they're headed to sleep), that's a good reason to be there for her, in my book. (And I know lots of people will disagree with me on that.) It doesn't mean that she gets to stay up, nor even get more than a soothing hand on her back and a little crooning.

But I'm just not willing to ignore her while she does it. And lately, I haven't had to. She's falling asleep for me more and more easily (knock on wood!), so I'm figuring that no matter how orthodox or not my methods are, they're workable for the moment.

In terms of whether I'm insane or not, well, it's darned difficult to say. Pepper's jury is still out, and I understand that. Still, I have a sense that I'm not insane. There is this tremendous sense of peace and serenity that's grown and grown and grown in me in the last several weeks. Somehow, some way, I am all right. More than all right. I am... well. Whole. Protected by God. In a state of grace. I dunno how to describe it; I'm not a religiously trained person. I mean, I know I still have difficult thinking and choices ahead of me. And I know that there will be times that I feel like I'm going to break. But... under all that, there is a faith that something bigger than me has taken over, and that the best thing I can do is to do the best I can in every instant that I exist, and accept the track that God and Life and the Universe have laid down for me.

Weird thoughts, those. But there are just too many things that have happened to me in the last several months that point to things that are outside my understanding. I don't know whether the label "God" (or Goddess, or YHWH, or Allah, or Krishna, or Thor) is the right one. Nor do I know if the label "Devil" (or all of the other possible labels for that) are right or not. But they're the best I've come up with so far.

A lot of thinking to do. I have a LOT of thinking to do.

J,

Just wanted to come in here with a few words of support instead of always lurking on your thread. I guess I don´t have so much to say because I think you are doing the right things for yourself, the baby...though I do FEEL with you and relate to the hole you have in your heart.

I know, like many of us others that nobody else can fill that hole up but your WP, and you try, try, try, to take focus away from the hole by decluttering, reading, working, being a good parent. But once in a while you just stop and look and listen, trying to see whether the hole is smaller and it isn´t. Thats when you sigh, get sad, feel lonely and wish you could turn back time.

I myself am beginning to walk down the road you are walking and whether Plan B is a success or not, who knows, its scary letting go...

J, let down your hair a bit, bring a little bit of excitement and joy into your life by doing something you have dreamt of recently or maybe ever since you were a little girl. Get out and meet some new people. Take a vacation! Come to Copenhagen - In my new big house (until 1st June), I can accomodate any MB souls that wish to get away from it all for a break and try a new scene...

You are doing a great job - but remember to cry and let those big painful and tearful heartfelt sobs out of your body, right from the bottom of your stomach - Just remember to let it all out...

Hugs
Queen

<small>[ October 09, 2003, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just wanted to come in here with a few words of support instead of always lurking on your thread. I guess I don´t have so much to say because I think you are doing the right things for yourself, the baby...though I do FEEL with you and relate to the hole you have in your heart.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Queen. It's a hard road we are all on, and the holes in our hearts got there in godawful, painful ways. They don't heal easily or well, even when they begin to scab over.

I don't know whether I'm doing the right things or not sometimes, but each day I try my darndest to find what they are and to make sure they get done. Some days it's easier than others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, like many of us others that nobody else can fill that hole up but your WP, and you try, try, try, to take focus away from the hole by decluttering, reading, working, being a good parent. But once in a while you just stop and look and listen, trying to see whether the hole is smaller and it isn´t. Thats when you sigh, get sad, feel lonely and wish you could turn back time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. And usually about fifteen minutes later you get jolted to reality by the next awful or unhappy thing that happens. At least, I do. Then again, these days both the sadness and the hurts are dying down. I know that the loneliness is yet to come; WP is still too much in my life, and my life is too full in other ways, for me to feel that desolate desire for that someone special.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I myself am beginning to walk down the road you are walking and whether Plan B is a success or not, who knows, its scary letting go...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right now, I'm in Plan A. I would like to be in Plan B, but I can't. So I'm doing the best I can in Plan A. Eliminate LBs, expose the affair, meet needs. Negotiate for change. It's a slow process, but what else do I have to do while I'm not allowed to just step away?

And just letting go, well, yeah. For a while it was completely terrifying. Now, though? Now I'm at peace. My life is what it is. There is joy and hardship in it, pain and laughter. More of the joy and laughter and considerably less of the hardship and pain. I'll take it. God in her infinite wisdom surely has something up her sleeve for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">J, let down your hair a bit, bring a little bit of excitement and joy into your life by doing something you have dreamt of recently or maybe ever since you were a little girl. Get out and meet some new people. Take a vacation! Come to Copenhagen - In my new big house (until 1st June), I can accomodate any MB souls that wish to get away from it all for a break and try a new scene...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm, well, I got new towels and shower curtain and sheets the other day. Does that count? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And I'm slowly redecorating and fixing up the house in other ways, which is something I've not allowed myself to do in a very long time. We got all kinds of nifty stuff done this last weekend while my parents were in town. The picket fence is painted, the cracks in the concrete stoop are filled and the stoop has its first coat of paint on it. My mom bought me most of the bathroom and bedroom linens, and we also ordered a HUGE order of bulbs and plants for the yard. In about two weeks, I'm going to be buried in things I need to plant!

I've met some new people; I've been trying to meet the people in my neighborhood and town. That, too, has been a goal of mine for a very long time -- to put down roots in a community, to become part of a community. I live in a wonderful neighborhood for it, but I still have to make the effort to walk out the door and say hello to people I've never seen before. It's fun, though.

Copenhagen.... that's an interesting thought. I'm not willing to be separated from DD long enough to do that without her, and right now I suspect that WP would NOT be pleased with a suggestion that I take her along! I would dearly love to see the city, though. I hope you're enjoying your new house, Queen!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are doing a great job - but remember to cry and let those big painful and tearful heartfelt sobs out of your body, right from the bottom of your stomach - Just remember to let it all out...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I've been there and done that. It's been a few weeks since the last time, but I'm sure there are more coming. When they come, I let them. If they don't, I generally don't go looking, though.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

A multiple choice quiz. Which is propoer MB form?

Alternate A: Dear WP,

I'm annoyed that OM was sitting at the entrance to your parking lot waiting for me to leave when I drove out, because it appears that you're breaking the terms of our agreement. How would you feel about ending your relationship with him and finding another way to spend your time?

Love, J

Alternate B: Dear WP,

I'm annoyed that OM was sitting at the entrance to your parking lot waiting for me to leave when I drove out, because it appears that you're breaking the terms of our agreement. How would you feel about me hanging him by his ponytail and horsewhipping him?

Love, J

Alternate C: Dear WP,

I'm annoyed that OM was sitting at the entrance to your parking lot waiting for me to leave when I drove out, because it appears that you're breaking the terms of our agreement. How would you feel about deflating all his tires, his pot belly, and his ego, and sending him and his penguin beak flapping on their way?

Love, J

Alternate D: Dear WP,

I'm annoyed that OM was sitting at the entrance to your parking lot waiting for me to leave when I drove out, because it appears that you're breaking the terms of our agreement. How would you feel about being found in contempt of court and having a restraining order issued against you and him, and me ending up with sole custody of DD?

Love, J

Oddly enough, I'm not all that annoyed about it. It's SO BORING I can hardly stand it. I do think it makes for good evidence in the legal proceedings that will surely come eventually, but that's about it.

Just,

Well this doesn't sound much like a Plan A....or a Plan B....more like purgatory! LOL. You're a really tough situation because of the custody challenges. But even though I've read through this thread (and am admittedly tired and watching the words blur) I'm confused about something. I also would like to see you in Plan B. Why aren't you? Could you make that a little clearer for me? My primary reason for that wanting to get you there is because presently you have no way of protecting yourself and your Plan A under the current conditions hasn't much chance of helping either. If there is no way out of this quagmire...then perhaps you may want to consider using the Weiner 180 list which is somewhat more empowering and works reasonably well in some unconventional situations where it's difficult to do precisely A or B.

As far as baby goes. I'm the nurturing type of mommy too that thinks letting babies cry is a bunch of poppycock. Now that doesn't mean that I don't think it's important for baby to know how to put herself to sleep and that there is some fussing and rumbling that goes along with that for some...but the persistent cries should always be answered. Does she have a lovey? Something she is attached to? Because if she gets solely attached to you....what happens when she has to sleep without you? Poor chere. Pick something soft and sweet that she likes....and start tucking it in with her at bedtime consistently. She'll find comfort in that when you aren't around...a blanket, doll, something with texture. It helps her later on when she needs to detach a little as part of her growth as an individual. My youngest is six and he still crawls in and snuggles when he wakes up at night. Don't you just love the smell of a baby? It's addictive.

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Hi Just J,
Chiming in on Starfish here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... this doesn't sound much like a Plan A....or a Plan B....more like purgatory...You're in a really tough situation because of the custody challenges. I'm confused about something. I also would like to see you in Plan B. Why aren't you? Could you make that a little clearer for me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could you make that a bit clearer to me too, J?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...presently you have no way of protecting yourself and your Plan A under the current conditions hasn't much chance of helping either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am worried about you protecting yourself here as well!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...then perhaps you may want to consider using the Weiner 180 list which is somewhat more empowering and works reasonably well in some unconventional situations... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, this is an unconventional situation too, which is why you are probably doing the Plan A, but maybe Starfish is right, maybe the 180 would allow you to "kind of Plan A" but protect yourself. But then again a Plan A is a Plan A, and Plan B is B. How far have you thought this one out? Like Starfish stated, how are you protecting yourself from further hurt...

I´m glad she posted because my thoughts were on the same line after you posted me saying you were not in Plan B but Plan A?

-queenie-

Well, I guess it goes like this:

I gave WP my PBL when I left at the end of May.

Then WP revoked her consent and my lawyer told me point blank that she didn't care whether I was protected or not, the first thing was protecting DD and that I was to take it back in as low-key a way as possible and get over it. I did as I was told to do, feeling nauseated the whole time.

And my lawyer is adamantly opposed to anything (including Plan B) that appears not to be in DD's best interests. Her goal is to have me and WP in an amicable relationship to raise DD well, and to heck with the marriage.

(She's a GOOD lawyer. She's also a DIVORCE lawyer. One of these days I'm going to -- come to think of it, I'm going to do it right now -- challenge her to be an advocate for my marriage, not an advocate for getting a good divorce.)

Anyway, while we were in the middle of the custody battle, I waivered between Plans A and B, which is an ugly place to be. Cerri, wise woman that she is, advocated listening to my lawyer and understanding that "there is no modified Plan B."

So if I have to have contact with WP, I have to be in Plan A. As you might imagine, there are days when that's not very pleasant.

Then again, we live separately and I don't call her if I don't have to. We've worked out that most of our communications are via e-mail and our in-person communications are mostly light and about the baby.

So really, I'm ... well, like I said, I dunno where I am. In many ways, it's purgatory. In many ways, it's a pretty protected place to be in.

I've just started to make plans and really focus on the things one's supposed to do in Plan A. The only thing I've really done over the last few months is to eliminate LBs where I could. I think I've got that mostly under control (in spite of my absolute fury tonight over various things that are ongoing in a negotiation of ours).

I'm going to continue to avoid them at all costs (and I tried tonight, but I need more backup people to call who will just listen to me vent).

And I've got a long list of people to talk to about the affair and my continuing desire to reconcile. I don't know that that does any good, but I'm doing my best.

I also confronted about the affair tonight, which is the first time I've done that since before I moved out. That, too, was a good thing to do. And yes, I did it without LBing. Ha ha ha ha ha! I've never done that before.

So, I'll keep that stuff up and start to focus more on meeting needs. I have a feeling that's where I'm really going to open myself up to being hurt. I'm not looking forward to that, but I think that I can do it very slowly and carefully, and if there's a defined end date (must get the lawyer on board for that), I should be able to make it through a pretty long low-level Plan A.

In many ways, I've probably been doing more of a 180s approach all along than a Plan A/B kind of thing, and I could certainly continue that approach. I'll have to look at it more carefully and make sure I understand it, though.

Now I'm going to sleep. I hope I answered the questions!

Ugh. Some days, some nights, just... ugh.

Last night, for example. Big huge .... not relationship talk, completely. Mostly a negotiation about an issue regarding DD. But also relationship talk and very emotional.

See, the previous night I'd asked WP to pay for a it if there is a cost differential for something that I haven't been able to arrange to do because we haven't completed a negotiation and I didn't know which of two alternatives associated with part of it (if either) was going to work.

She wrote back and asked what I was talking about, and said she'd considered and already rejected the second alternative.

I was furious. We've been negotiating this major issue for weeks, and this portion of the issue for days, and from my perspective, she'd just told me that she'd rejected what I had said about it and then not bothered to tell me. Oooo, I was soooo mad!

After attempting to calm myself down (slamming doors in an empty house and pounding my fists on the floor didn't do it) and then trying to call backups rather than her, I made myself calm down enough to compose MB-correct language and then called her.

"I'm upset that you rejected [alternative X] without telling me. I'm very unhappy that you're delaying our negotiations. I'm worried that you're trying to force the issue by putting off the discussion until the last minute."

I managed, through most of it, to do things that way. I listened to her perspective -- she explained that the things I'd said had made her so angry that she was having to stop and rewrite her replies regularly, and she'd just answered the one part out of context in order to let me know what her thoughts were about it. She said she had no intention of blowing me off or anything.

Which, amazingly enough, actually made me feel better. We talked through why she was feeling so angry (my suggestions for how to work part of the issue left her feeling badly), and that led to a discussion of what she really wants.

I don't know, really, whether it helped any. She wants things that are seemingly incompatible -- she wants to be a stay-at-home-mom and nurse DD whenever she wants to nurse, for example, and has chosen to live alone in a way that leaves her unable to do that because of her financial situation.

I just said that she had made choices that put other things ahead of being able to nurse on demand, and that those choices are hers. And I said she couldn't blame me for her choices and treat me badly because they exist. (Is that an LB, telling someone they can't do something like that?)

She said she doesn't. Man, I certainly feel like she punishes me with it enough!

We got into a lot of areas that had nothing to do with the negotiations directly at hand, of course, and at one point I finally couldn't let it go any longer and said, "By the way, I've become aware that OM slept at your house on Tuesday night. I'm very concerned about the effect that has on DD."

She asked me how I knew and I said it was none of her business. And then I asked her to end her relationship with him. She said she knows that's what I want. I said it's not just what I want, it's what I'm asking her to do. She said she wasn't going to discuss it right then.

I said that was fine, and we moved on to other things. Whew! A confrontation done, without LBs! Yay for me.

There was one point (elsewhere in the conversation) where she asked me not to shout around the baby, though, so I know I must've been angry enough to LB some in there as well, even when I didn't want to.

DD (aka TCBITW) started fussing during the discussion; she was tired and needed her bottle, so I asked WP if I could call her back after DD was in bed. When I called back, I realized that the quiet tone in her voice that I'd heard earlier wasn't just quiet, but that there was something really wrong.

I asked her about it and she wouldn't tell me what it was. She just said "Lots of things." I asked if there was anything I could do to help, and she said no, unless I was going to fix this [meaning our current negotiation] for her.

Sigh. I've offered as many alternatives as I can think of, and none of them are acceptable, and it's just infuriating.

Anyway, we tried to review some of the points we'd discussed in the negotiation and got bogged down in them, and I finally said that we weren't getting anywhere. She agreed to stop, and I asked her again what was wrong. She still wouldn't tell me, so I just said that if there was anything I could do, she should please let me know.


About five minutes later, a friend of ours IMed me and told me that at the recreational activity that WP runs each week, one of her regulars had collapsed. He had a heart attack, they did CPR until the ambulance arrived, and he died later in the hospital.

This is someone who was an acquaintance of mine, though not someone I was close to. I hadn't seen him since WP kicked me out of the recreational activity in March or April.

So I was very sad to hear it, and also very sad that I hadn't gotten to see him again. At the same time, I was very sad for WP, who had such an upsetting thing happen in her session.

And I was upset with her -- I felt humiliated that she'd not told me and just let me appear to be a complete a**hole, and I was hurt that she didn't tell me someone who I knew and cared about had died.

This morning when I dropped DD off, I told her that I was very sorry to hear of it, and a little hurt that she hadn't told me. Her reaction was to get very upset because she "can't do anything right," and then she apologized. I decided that about the only good thing I could do was accept the apology and leave before things got worse, so I did.

Gah. What a night. What a day.

And she just called me a little while ago to continue the negotiation regarding the issue. I completely didn't expect that after the delays so far. We talked about it for awhile and maybe (maybe) came to a possible conclusion. I need to check costs and stuff now.

So.

That's my update. I don't know what I really make of it, except that negotiation is hard and tiring.

And maybe we're both learning not to be trampled by the other person's perspectives, and also not to judge the other person's perspectives in an attempt to get our own way.

I hope that's what's happening, anyway.

My standard advice: keep acting like you are dealing with a psychiatric patient, because in the fog, you might as well be.

Expect them to be inconsistent, weird, irrational. Expect them to do things normal people would apologize for.

A.M., you are one smart lady. You're so right about this.

Everyone else, sorry for the LONNNNNG update up there. I'm used to documenting things in great detail, and I accidently used that technique here.

So.... let's see.

We have a Parenting Coordinator. She has determined that WP and I must meet face to face in a therapeutic setting, though she expressed a full willingness to work with us outside those bounds when I interviewed her. She's said point-blank that she won't work with us if we can't do that.

Since I'm the one who's resistant to this idea, she asked me to express the boundaries under which I'd be willing to do that. They came down to:

- Treat me with respect as DD's parent and WP's spouse
- End threats, AOs, and DJs
- End cohabiting with OM and end affair with OM
- Be open and honest
- Ask for what you want from me

I sent these to the Parenting Coordinator before sending them to WP. I also asked her whether she could serve as an advocate for our marriage, and if not, who she thought could do that. The PC said that she's DD's advocate and not an advocate for me or for WP.

Uh, okay, being an advocate for DD is different from being an advocate for our marriage, and by extension our family? How does that work, exactly? (Yes, I did write back with that question.)

And she said most of my boundariesthem were "out of her scope," and that the only ones she was willing to address are respect as DD's parent and ending threats, AO's, and DJs. The rest, she says, are appropriate for family/couples counseling and only if WP is willing to address them.

I wrote back and asked whether that meant I have to, in essence, enter an environment that is inherently unsafe for me, and if so, how exactly I can proceed here. Haven't heard back yet.

I also wrote again to my lawyer, whom I respect tremendously, asking again if she can be an advocate of our marriage. Her answer, in summary: I'm being unreasonable, unrealistic, and breaking her personal boundaries. But she still likes and respects me.

I really doubt myself at times like this. Both these women are very intelligent, and much-respected in their fields of expertise. Am I being unreasonable in saying that OM is a big grey elephant in the room and that refusing to address him doesn't work for me? I don't feel unreasonable, but who ever does?

And then there's the nice e-mail that, uh, whoever it was posted. The one about eating ice cream before the iceberg hits. I sent it to WP today, with a short note: If there were only one e-mail I could send, this would be it. I love you. I always have, and I always will.

This all just makes me want to cry, to hang my head and walk away, to give up and say fine, you're right, I can't succeed. We can never reconcile and I'm a fool to want to keep my vows to a marriage that never existed, that I helped to break with my own willingness to try polyamory.

Fine. I admit it. I screwed up! I helped destroy our marriage and I was completely unable to figure out how to act in the worst of situations in the worst of days. Fine. But dang it, I did the best I possibly could and I still am.

And I still love WP and I still love DD. They are my family.

Yo, God. If You're out there, I need your help. Thy will be done and all that jazz, but could I have JUST A WEE SMALL CLUE what that might be????? And while You're at it, what the heck did I do wrong to deserve this???????

No, never mind, I know the answer to that last one. Sigh. I need a miracle today.

Dear J,

I read your post under Nose2Nose. You seemed to try to be considerate to Nose2Nose, and that was one of my main intentions in posting to her thread. Certainly, I will respect that she has had enough of my creative ideas on her thread. If you get tired of my ideas, simply ask me not to post on your thread anymore, as Nose2Nose did.

I read your first and last post on this thread. I spend too much time on MB, so I try to take things piecemeal.

You are at an apparent juncture, where continuing Plan B is becoming difficult.

There are therapists who will help you work on your love relationship without the lover being present.

I have seen many posters on this category of General Question II, and elsewhere, recommend Plan B, in cases that I felt were suspect, or where there was insufficient info provided to be sure it was justified. Certainly there are some circumstances where Plan B is appropriate.

I will read more of your thread before coming up with an opinion.

You have stated that a main purpose of using Plan B is to protect your own feelings. From my understanding, that is a legitimate purpose of Plan B.

I will mention a general principle from Scientology, that relationships are built on ARC. They are three legs of a triangle, and any leg that is weak affects the other two legs. Affinity, Reality Communication. Under that theoretical construct, reducing communication will reduce affection and cooperation. It is just a rule of thumb, not a rigid law. If one leg is week, look at the other two legs, to see if they can be strengthened.

Thanks for not kicking me off your thread yet. I post first, and think things out afterwards. My theory is that if I tell others how to run their relationships, then I will learn how to make mine better.

I have made appointments with marriage counselors, and sometimes my wife shows up, and sometimes she shows up late, sometimes I just start out the counseling session not knowing if she is going to show or not. Sometimes she hasn't shown up, but I try to make the best advantage of the counseling time. Many counselors say thye can't help without the other lover there. But some feel OK with Lone Lovers. You seem sufficiently in touch that you could benefit alone, IMO.

I try to stick to a traditional relationship, because I don't feel that I am clever enough to make something creative work. I have plenty of ideas, I just know that I probabaly lack the follow through to carry them out successfully. Perhaps I am missing desert on the Titanic, but I feel more comfortable if I have rules that I generally follow.

What are your counseling goals?

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years, raised two challenging kids, still struggling

Hi JJ:

I saw your post 2 starman's thread, and decided I wanted 2 know more about you, so I came here!

WOW. What an experience! Or maybe a whole slug of experiences!

But I was intrigued by your use of "She" as a pronoun for God on starman's thread, and then about your interests in spiri2ality. Many here that know me might find this rather amusing coming from me, an atheist (really a spiri2alist, I realized this spring).

Have you ever read "The Power of Now", by Eckhart Tolle? I read it for the first time this spring, and it's made all the difference in the world 2 me. Before that, I kept screwing up progress with my WW by LBing because I kept getting impatient. And believe me, I need 2 be more patient! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> PON is all about living in the Now, not dwelling on the past and worrying about the fu2re. You strike me as the kind of person that might find Tolle's ideas useful.

If you'd rather not buy a book based on a raving lunatic's recommendation ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), you can read the first chapter online at: http://www.iloveulove.com/spirituality/pon/ponch1.htm

♥ ol' Raving lunatic 2long!

"There are two levels to your pain: the pain that you create now, and the pain from the past that still lives on in your mind and body. Ceasing to create pain in the present and dissolving past pain - this is what I want to talk about now." -Eckart Tolle, "The Power of Now"

Quipper -

So far, you're welcome here. I do think you should read the rest of my thread, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> In the main, I'm actually not in Plan B, though I want to be. You'll have to read the thread to get the whole scoop.

Just talked to the PC on the phone. She's not willing to be an advocate for our marriage without being certain that WP is also willing to work on it. She also says that she wouldn't intervene if someone came to her about someone who was a crack addict. Her feeling is that without the person in the addiction being willing to make changes, it's just not doable. She seems to think that intervention is not her role, and said that she's not a "marriage missionary." An interesting turn of phrase, that.

I respect her position; it seems to mirror what everyone here (including Cerri) has said about the person who's having the affair. Until they decide they're ready to change, there isn't much to be done.

Still. I'm saving MY marriage (there is no try, thank you Penny!), and I ask every person who comes into contact with both of us to join me in that. To give her credit, PC seemed to be okay with that.

I also think she doesn't like coming into this situation when we're in such an incredible state of limbo. I think she likes things neat and clean and uncomplicated. Heh. That, we are not.

Now I'll go back and look at your questions, Quipper.

Heya, 2Long! Welcome to my rather unlikely story. Thanks for coming to visit.

I'm in the midst of reading the first chapter of Tolle's work, and it's very similar so far to one of my favorite recent books -- 7 Masters, 1 Path, by Steven Masters. I experienced my first long period of no-mind while reading it. It was an extraordinary experience, and one that I intend to investigate much more.

And... thanks. This is exactly the reminder that I needed. I have been caught in a mind-trap for much of the last week, and I'd completely forgotten this way of getting out of it.

just J....wonder if you wouldn't mind giving me a shout on email. I won't be back on board until tommorow....but wanted to talk to you about sumpin......starfish4729@hotmail.com

Star -

You've got mail. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WAAAAA....no I don't <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> You don't have some weird screen name I would delete do you??? LOL!!! put my name in the title okay?

Err, uhhh, yeah, actually, I DO have a weird name that might get deleted automatically. Heh. Filtering software SUCKS.

I'll try again!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">three legs of a triangle, and any leg that is weak affects the other two legs. Affinity, Reality Communication. Under that theoretical construct, reducing communication will reduce affection and cooperation. It is just a rule of thumb, not a rigid law. If one leg is week, look at the other two legs, to see if they can be strengthened. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quipper, would you try again on this paragraph? I think I understand the basics of what you're trying to say, and some of the words seem to have gotten jumbled. I just want to make sure that I have a clear understanding -- is it affection, communication, and cooperation that are the three legs?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are your counseling goals?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting question. I have two main goals:

- Ensuring that my daughter is well cared-for while WP and I are in conflict.

- Restoration of our marriage.

You may notice that I've omitted any self-improvement kinds of things from the list. It's not that I believe that I'm perfect; far from it. In the course of managing to get through either of the above, I will have to change a great deal. However, improving my own internal landscape is not a "goal" in counseling any more than it's a goal in any other part of my life. In many ways, it's ALL of my life, so I would have to put it first on every list of goals I ever make.

In addition, each journey into counseling that I've taken thus far has been because of WP and her "issues." Mine take a far back seat to hers, and I find other places to work towards my goals for my internal landscape. If I find a therapist who is paying enough attention to focus on my part in all this, I'll certainly listen and grow as much as I can in the process.

<small>[ October 26, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>