J,

How are you?
And please understand I am not looking for "fine, how are you?"

I think I am seeing a person that is very sure of herself, but that wonders about a lot of things anyway. I worry about you, and I pray for you, but I don't know if I can really do a great deal to help you.

Is it getting any easier?

Does happiness seem closer now, or a long way off?

Do you realize that there are people who care about you and love you?

SS

<small>[ October 28, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Still Seeking -

Thanks for your concern, and for the question. Yes, in many ways things are a hundred times easier now than they were. I have been to hell's gates and spent time inside. The remarkable thing is that I came back out again at all, not that I came back out with injuries.

There is peace on many days and in many things. My home -is- my home now, peaceful and secure, with little in it to remind me of bad days and unhappy events. My life -is- my life now, with the usual ups and downs of a life full of busy days and a no-kidding difficult job.

There are wonderful times with my daughter, when all is well with the world, when she laughs and squeals and there is no place I would rather be.

There are also times when I am very upset, when something my WP has done causes me tremendous grief and I spend a day or two in tears.

There are times when I sit at my desk and pretend to work, but instead I am staring into space, thinking about all that's happened and all that's likely to happen, entirely lost to Now and focused on Later or Before. I try to stay out of that state, but the part of me that thinks is rather loud sometimes.

There was a night like that recently, when WP made me wait five hours for a phone call to negotiate something that she wanted me to change my plans for. A night when too much had come together and there was no relief in sight anywhere. A night when I told her that she is losing me, that each time she treats me badly a little more of my love for her is eroded away and that I won't be able to wait forever.

And yet, that day and that night make up only a single day and night out of the last month. In total, there've been perhaps two or three interactions like that this last month. And each time, I get closer to really expressing my emotions in a respectful, courteous way. (Now if I could just do the calm part...)

In the end, this journey is about me now. It's about how I live, how I act, how I treat the ones that I love and who love me. And yes, I do know there are people who love me. I have been blessed by that, and amazed by the number of people who showed up to support me when I was falling apart.

So how am I? I'm surviving. There's peace. There's grief. There's surviving. There's not, yet, a whole lot in the way of thriving.

It took me a long time to think of how to answer this. I could have just said, "I don't know how I am," and been almost as accurate. I don't know. I don't know that I will know for a long time.

Your reply is very well thought out, and that is exactly what I expected from you.

I'll reply at length - but it will take me some time also.

SS

Just J:

Since you liked the first chapter of Tolle's book, I thought I would 2uote a 2ple more things from elsewhere in the book that I found useful and posted on one of my threads back in May:

"The ego believes that in your resistance lies your strength, whereas in truth resistance cuts you off from Being, the only place of true power. Resistance is weakness and fear masquerading as strength. What the ego sees as weakness is your Being in its purity, innocence, and power. What it sees as strength is weakness. So the ego exists in a continuous resistance-mode and plays counterfeit roles to cover up your "weakness," which in truth is your power.

Until there is surrender, unconscious role-playing constitutes a large part of human interaction. In surrender, you no longer need ego defenses and false masks. You become very simple, very real. "That's dangerous," says the ego. "You'll get hurt. You'll become vulnerable." What the ego doesn't know, of course, is that only through the letting go of resistance, through becoming "vulnerable," can you discover your true and essential invulnerability."

and:

"Enlightenment through suffering - the way of the cross - means to be forced into the kingdom of heaven kicking and screaming. You finally surrender because you can't stand the pain anymore, but the pain could go on for a long time until this happens. Enlightenment consciously chosen means to relinquish your attachment to past and future and to make the Now the main focus of your life. It means choosing to dwell in the state of presence rather than in time. It means saying yes to what *is*. You then don't need pain anymore.

How much more time do you think you will need before you are ale to say "I will create no more pain, no more suffering?" How much more pain do you need before you can make that choice?

If you think that you need more time, you will get more time - and more pain. Time and pain are inseparable."

-Eckhart Tolle, "The Power of Now"

-ol' 2long

Just J:

I was going 2 post more 2uotes from Tolle, but decided 2 point you 2 the thread where I pulled that last one from. We had some interesting discussions about Tolle, starting about page 2, of:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=024011;p=1

2long

Still Seeking - Thanks for your care and thoughts. I look forward to reading your reply; your words are always inspiring and thought-provoking.

And speaking of inspiring and though-provoking, 2long, golly. I haven't read the thread yet, but just these few lines make such an impression on me. I know that in some ways the words that come back to me are words that reflect my own thoughts -- you're posting these things to me, for example, is because of similar things that I've said here and on other threads. Nevertheless, it's like whispering a prayer into the dark and hearing a heavenly choir echo it back to you on full blast! (Something that actually happened to me via e-mail t'other day. I sent someone the "Now I lay me down to sleep" prayer, and got back one HECK of a response. Whew. That Goddess is quite some talker.)

Anyway, I am thinking more and more about surrender. This is weird, I guess, but one of the "advantages" I have in life is that I'm not jealous of who else WP may sleep with or love.

Basically, as long as -I- am treated well, other people being treated well isn't really a problem for me.

Now, I'm really not sure what this revelation leads to. I've spent two years asking WP to treat me well while she's with OM and she hasn't managed it yet.

I guess what it leads to is a shift of focus away from OM and towards me and how I am treated within our marriage.

Hi J,

I am trying to know how to post to you. On MB we deal mostly with "how do I do this?" or "this is what happened, so what do I do now?"
It seems to me that lately you have been trying to understand and come to grips with your feelings more than wanting ideas on one plan or another.

I have the text of your reply before me now, but I don't think I will respond to it line by line as I often do. I identify with the feelings you convey. We often wonder if events have meaning, or if they are just random things that happen and we are left to find happiness as best we can despite these events.

I have not been through what you have been through, I cannot say I understand all your feelings, or the depth of your pain. I do care, and hope that pain can be replaced with joy as time goes on.

I laughed when I read "the part of me that thinks is rather loud sometimes." You are an intense person. I believe when you do things you probably put your whole heart and soul into it. Thinking would be no different, I can imagine you think with a passion.

It is good to see you grow. Not that I like forced growth, but the end result will be a better person than the one that started this process. Perhaps It would be better to say that I am glad you are doing better now, and that I believe you are doing better because you have been willing to learn, and grow, and adjust. I see a stronger J than I did when you first came.

By now you understand that this is very much about you and learning to cope, and not as much about anyone else and what they will or won't do. ( and you said as much in your post) It's about how to find peace in our struggles, how to find balance. It is difficult to be calm when inside you are screaming - or crying. It is hard to let go and believe that no matter what happens we can be happy - even as our known world fades away before our eyes.

I have seen you post pleas to God. I encourage you to continue to seek his face. It is easier to trust you will get help when you come to know God well. Everyone has to find their own way to God, and that's a journey I have been on for quite some time. There really is someone there, I have felt the love, and gotten the help that I sought, and you can do the same. Though I do not know him as well as I would like, I know much more than I did when I began the journey.

I suppose the bottom line is to encourage you. I am still seeking my own happiness, but I seek for yours too. I wish there was more I could do for you personally. I wish I could somehow give you what I know, that you could see what I have seen, but that is impossible to do with typed words on a screen. And so, we each make our own way, the best we can. I hope ( and pray) that you may find the happiness you seek. The things you have told me let me know that you are making your way through this as well as many, better than some.

I see you choose your words carefully, thoughtfully. I see you have great intelligence, and great capacity to love. I encourage you to continue to do the best you can, and be the best person you know how to be.

I didn't say all that I intended. I can't find the words to get some of it across. Perhaps I can do some of it like this.

1. Don't be afraid. While some people have reason to fear, you do not. Make your way as best you can, and don't worry along the way.

2. Treat others well no matter how they treat you. You always feel better when you do it that way.

3. Trust yourself but doubt your self too. We have to know we are doing the right thing to get anywhere worthwhile, so it's good to look at all the sides. I could add that once you know you are on the right path, go after it with all your heart, but that's how you always do it - at least I believe it is.

4. You have great worth. It is part of you and always with you, no matter what others think of you, or say to you, or how they treat you. You have great worth.

It's sometimes hard to know how to end a post. Perhaps I'll just say thank you for letting me come and visit with you.

Thank you.

SS

Dear J,

Just another thought, after reading SS, fantastic post.

The path to being treated better is one unresolved question. It seems that if WP is not feeling good, about herself, then it might be difficult for her to treat others with respect and love.

You have your wishes, and wish list, fairly clearly in mind, I surmise. What I don't hear is the path to building WP self-esteem.

My wife started responding more on the friendly side, when I began following the Love Diet, contacting her three times a day, even if for only a minute, to say something usually postive. If you have not read THE lOVE DIET, you can find it on most posts by toomuchcoffeeman

You mentioned that sometimes people around you are less than positive toward you. Some think of you as evil, I believe was your word. Part of what you can do for WP, is to practice the tools of independent thinking. Basically, not buying into what others may be putting out. These skills can be practiced, in role playing, and are important if your love is to flourish where an occasional put-down occurs.

Making love deposits is good. But there is an art to providing a cacoon of protection for your WP, so that bad ideas get handled. The cacoon is partly mystical, partly practiced drills with WP to shine on others without buying into their expectations. It is also managing others who impact on your relationship, and arriving at a mutually respectable understanding with those others.

Some people have smiled to my face, and I have treated them in a friendly way, then later, I have found out that some of the seemingly friendly people, have said a number of unkind things behind my back. Sometimes I find out soon enough to learn to work around these sneaky people. Sometimes I have been fooled for too long, and I don't find out until the relationships are beyond salvage.

Thanks for assisting with No2nos support. Apparently I did not have a sufficient amount of suport, in the balance of supoprt and reality perspectives.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 01, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

I am trying to know how to post to you. On MB we deal mostly with "how do I do this?" or "this is what happened, so what do I do now?" It seems to me that lately you have been trying to understand and come to grips with your feelings more than wanting ideas on one plan or another.

I think that's because I try to keep the "what do I do" stuff, and also much of my reaction to what WP does, off this board. My own personal internal journey is just that; mine. The interactions between me and WP and how I handle them is really something that's best kept private. I don't do it all the time nor all that well. I've just re-read this whole thread with an eye to what WP might think of it, and in the end I think she'd probably be both angry and not at the things I've said here. Still, I am trying to focus on my own journey and not on hers. I have no control over hers, after all, and it's all about what I do have control over.

I do care, and hope that pain can be replaced with joy as time goes on.

Me too. And in the moments of Now when I'm able to focus on just that, there -is- joy. There is also pain. As I said somewhere up there, I hope to experience more unadulterated joy as time goes on.

I also worry, sometimes. I've been on Lexapro since WP decided to threaten my relationship with DD. The times when I get terribly upset these days are the times when I've forgotten to take it for a few days. It makes me wonder where my emotions would be if I weren't on the anti-d, and whether I am just postponing some kind of emotional hell right now. I sincerely hope not. I also don't want to stay on this stuff forever.

I laughed when I read "the part of me that thinks is rather loud sometimes." You are an intense person. I believe when you do things you probably put your whole heart and soul into it. Thinking would be no different, I can imagine you think with a passion.

Intense? Me? Nah.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> In fact, for years many of my colleagues found me intimidating because, I suspect, of my intensity. Nowadays, people find me restful more than intense. I suspect that's partly from being a parent and partly from the seratonin levels produced by the lexapro.

I see a stronger J than I did when you first came.

Do you recall the very first threads that I posted on JFO in March? I had them removed, so they're not there anymore. Those were full of pain and indecision and fear.

I suppose the bottom line is to encourage you.

Thank you, SS. I appreciate your encouragement. I am still moving forward, still finding peace and also finding anger. I am doing my best to encourage the former and remedy the latter. Kind of like a feng shui analysis of a house, interestingly enough. I wonder what an earth remedy for my head would look like...

I am still seeking my own happiness, but I seek for yours too.

Where's your story, SS? Is it here somewhere? I would like to read it.

The things you have told me let me know that you are making your way through this as well as many, better than some.

Thank you. There is a lot left to do. And I have already done a great deal. I hope to continue to make it through, whether badly or well. So long as I -do- continue, it is enough for me right now.

I encourage you to continue to do the best you can, and be the best person you know how to be.

Always. From the moment all this began until today, I have measured myself by only one yardstick; am I doing the best that I can in this moment, on this day, at this time?

I do not punish myself if I don't. I don't castigate myself for the failings I have. I just try to correct them and come closer to the best that I can possibly be. Each day, each moment, I learn more how to be fully the best possible me.

I have a lifetime more learning to do there. I'm planning for a full century of life (while also trying to live each day as if it were the only one I had). There's at least a full century of work to be done.

In that way, I do hope that reincarnation is a part of the cycle of life; there's so much that will remain that I have not done when my century and my day are done.

1. Don't be afraid. While some people have reason to fear, you do not. Make your way as best you can, and don't worry along the way.

This one has held my attention since I read this last night. There was, once, so much for me to fear. WP could have, in fact, made me into an every-other-Sunday-afternoon parent. I could have become, as she tried to make me, a distant aunt or a nanny. It took a great deal of work and a lot of money to avoid that.

There is still the potential for terribly bad outcomes, though they seem more and more remote as time goes on.

So, I must ask -- why do you say that I do not have reason to fear? I suspect that I agree with you... but why are you able to say it from what you've seen here?

It's sometimes hard to know how to end a post. Perhaps I'll just say thank you for letting me come and visit with you.

You are always welcome to visit, Still Seeking. And more than that, thank you for the wise words, many of which I did not respond to because there is nothing to say except "Golly, thank you," or "You're right. I'll try to do that." Which I'll just say once. Golly, thank you. And you're right. I'll try to do these things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 02, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

JustJ,

I have a question. I have been thinking about your situation for a while now. You mentioned at some point....about how her family seems to have withdrawn their support. How much of that has to do with the fact the a male/female relationship is more acceptable and traditional for them....and how much of it has to do with how good he/or you are for her? He doesn't sound like much of a prize. I think in some ways, it gives you an extra burden and makes it even more necessary to remain consistent and not LB. I continue to follow your story, and keep you in my prayers. Seems like you'd be a hard act to follow, and the bond with your daughter will hopefully have some weight as well. Hugs.....wanted you to know I'm reading. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Where's your story, SS? Is it here somewhere? I would like to read it.

In the words of 2long: once to someone else: SS doesn't have a story."

I don't really have a story in the way most here do. I found MB by accident. Once I found it, I could see it could help my marriage. On the outside we looked to be a happy couple. On the inside, we had lost the excitement and passion that we wanted, but didn't know how to keep. We followed the program as outlined on this site, and we have it back now - better than it ever was, even on our honeymoon. It's been almost two years since I found this web site.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
1. Don't be afraid. While some people have reason to fear, you do not. Make your way as best you can, and don't worry along the way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This one has held my attention since I read this last night. There was, once, so much for me to fear. WP could have, in fact, made me into an every-other-Sunday-afternoon parent. I could have become, as she tried to make me, a distant aunt or a nanny. It took a great deal of work and a lot of money to avoid that.

There is still the potential for terribly bad outcomes, though they seem more and more remote as time goes on.

So, I must ask -- why do you say that I do not have reason to fear? I suspect that I agree with you... but why are you able to say it from what you've seen here?

It's hard to explain some things with words. It is because of who you are, and how you are. You don't have all the information and skills yet that may be needed, but you have the talent and ability to get them. You are confident in your ability, but seek to be sure of your direction. You trust yourself, but seek God's help to find your way realizing you don't know everything.

I have found that I cannot do everything that needs doing by myself, but with Gods help I am able. I have found that sometimes I lack, but my lack can be overcome by Gods help if I am humble. I have reason after reading your posts to believe you will find God yourself, and that you will overcome your weaknesses, and that you will become the person you desire. It's a long hard road, and it takes a lot of work, but I believe you will travel that road, and reach your destination. There are many things you have yet to learn (as I do also,) but I believe you will be willing and able to learn them. Many are able, but not willing. Some are not able.

We fear when we believe that something will happen that we won't be able to recover from. I believe you will be able to recover from the problems you face. I have faith that you will find the answers you are looking for.

Just don't get cocky - OK?
Oh, and you have a sense of humor too. Thought I would throw that in.

SS

<small>[ November 02, 2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I have a question. I have been thinking about your situation for a while now. You mentioned at some point....about how her family seems to have withdrawn their support. How much of that has to do with the fact the a male/female relationship is more acceptable and traditional for them....and how much of it has to do with how good he/or you are for her?

I honestly don't know. I do know that WP's parents tried WAY too hard to accept us when we first told them we were involved. This was in the "unenlightened" early 90's. MIL in particular went overboard -- joined PFLAG, outed us to all of their friends (outing is NOT a nice term, BTW), and even outed us to WP's grandmother, who was 82 at the time and is now 92.

All in all, it seems to me that MIL has issues that she hasn't dealt with in all of this. I dunno what they are, but some of it smells much like homophobia.

He doesn't sound like much of a prize.

Well..... I'm not an unbiased observer and I don't know that I can give an unbiased answer. He is of the same faith as she is (Jewish), which I'm not. He's male, which I'm not. He's a lovely dancer, which I could be but have not been allowed to become (I started too late...). He's done his darndest not to be smelly around them, and generally combs his hair before he's going to see them. (Or did; I don't know whether he's had any contact with them at all lately.) He's much closer to the same height as they are. (They're all tiny. At 5'9", I tower over all of them. Even FIL is five inches shorter than me.)

So there is more there than just being male. I don't know how it might add up in their minds.


I think in some ways, it gives you an extra burden and makes it even more necessary to remain consistent and not LB.

Ayup. You and Cerri and my lawyer and my mother all agree on that one, so it MUST be right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I continue to follow your story, and keep you in my prayers.

Thank you! The more prayers headed my way, the better!

Seems like you'd be a hard act to follow, and the bond with your daughter will hopefully have some weight as well.

I certainly hope so. I want my marriage, my sweet spouse, my family, and my integrity all back where they're supposed to be! And if I can't have that, can I PLEASE have some chocolate?!? Sheesh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugs.....wanted you to know I'm reading. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks!

Good god, I'm tired tonight. I set off a whirlwind yesterday, and it got a whole lot of things out in the open that are just... hard to hear.

Yesterday, I sent an e-mail to both our families. Most of it was about the baby and her 10-month appointment at the doctor. And I added one personal detail about the visit -- at the end of the visit, I discovered that DD smelled like OM. A disturbing and unhappy way to end the visit.

WP was, predictably, furious. This led to yet another of our parking-lot extravaganzas, in which she told me, basically, that she was really angry at me for the offensive thing I'd said and that she's furious when I send e-mails to "my whole address book" and that I keep saying things that are completely inaccurate.

She said that I needed to "get over it" and "we're not married" and ... well, you get the idea and many of you have heard it from your own spouses. Repeating all of it will just make me unhappy again. There were also many, many "You have to --" comments. And a "What's it going to take to convince you to stop waiting?" comment.

I think I managed not to LB much at all, and I wasn't all that upset afterwards. Mostly, I said stuff like I love her, I'm committed to our marriage, I want her to end her affair.

At some point she pushed my button regarding DD and I said something about her denying me access and such, and we got into the whole discussion of whether she did or did not try to take DD away from me. She maintains that she didn't and that she never denied me access. When I brought up a specific event when she denied me access right after I gave her the PlB letter, what did she say? "You gave me a letter telling me you were giving me space to figure things out and you'd leave it all up to me, and when I decided to take some of that space, you had someone call me the next day and start pressuring me!!!"

To put it mildly, it was pretty wild hearing her side of things. And I'm sure she was surprised by some of the things I reminded her of, like the pediatrician's appointment where she abused me so badly (verbally) that I literally fell apart when we walked out the door. I thought I was never going to see DD again after that.

In any case, I really wasn't all that upset about it afterwards. I heard a lot of fog talk and knew it for fog talk.

In the end, I was more upset that my mom took me up one side and down the other for the e-mail comment. She seems to feel that the lexapro has unhinged me completely.

And then my lawyer finished the job today, telling me what a complete idiot I am and how I'm just going to look bad myself if I continue this completely "out of the box" behavior.

What's that, you say? Oh, out of the box? Right, let me define that for you:

- No more saying that I'm committed to our marriage.
- No more comparing the affair to an addiction.
- Oh, wait, you're NOT MARRIED ANYMORE, you idiot, so it's NOT AN AFFAIR.
- No more making WP look bad (!!) because after all she's my DD's other parent and that could be used against me in a court proceeding to adjust my time with DD (!!!!!) because I'm prejudicing her community against her (!!!!!!!).

I'm so damned tired of this. I'm sure my lawyer is giving me sound advice. I'm just so damned tired of it. And I do like and respect my laywer. She's damned good at her job.

So tonight when WP came to pick up DD, I apologized for the comment. Said that the doctor's visits are always hard on me. And I suggested that a lot of "You have to" statements really aren't going to work all that well, and that if she wants something from me, it would probably be better if she asked me.

She thanked me for the apology, and said that she probably hadn't handled the conversation all that well.

Then I said that I wanted to say a little more about our marriage, though I'm not going to bring it up all that often. I said that I want her to know that I feel that there are some marriages that should end, ones that are bad, but that I remember our marriage and there were a lot of good times in it.

I said that I know we've both been through a very hard time, and we both did and said things that were very hard to do, when we were really upset. I said that I hope that as the emotions calm down and things get better, that we'll be able to reconcile.

She said that I have to face reality. I asked her to explain, and she said that I tell people that it's temporary (don't think I've ever actually said that), that we're estranged, that we're separated, that everything will be fine if she just ends her relationship with OM.

I said that actually, I have a good life right now and that just ending her affair -- she broke in and said it's NOT an affair -- fine, her relationship with OM would not be enough for me to invite her to return. I said that I'm just open to the potential because I believe that all three of us (meaning, her, me, and DD) could be happy.

She said that she wants to be friends and co-parents, but no more. I said that I want her to be happy, and I think we could all be happy together. She said she hopes we can all be happy, but doesn't want "that kind" of relationship with me again. Ugh. Talk about hard to listen to.

So. That was the end of it, and I've edited out the chatter about the baby and all that stuff.

So, o ye wise heads of Marriage Builders, what think ye? She was so calm, so collected! This is the woman that I remember from years and years together, telling me as gently as she could that she saw no hope. Dear god. How can I possibly believe that this is "fog" anymore?

And what do I do next?

(There, Still Seeking, that last one is for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Oh, and I put my wedding band back on today. How's that for ironic?

J,

I thought you were in "Plan B with contact"? -- meaning, you have a child and there has to be SOME contact? This would spare you all the relationship talk, and minimize your own pain.

I've noticed (and I could be wrong) that you seem to set yourself up for adversarial relationships with family, lawyer, friends, etc. Is there any way you could just turn into a big soft sofa cushion? Agree with everybody -- everybody, after all, is so right, all of the time. Why didn't you see this before?

Better said than done, I know. I get all this resistance from my friends about my H's R is none of my business anymore (even though we're still married, and state law recognizes I'm on the hook, anyway), how I should "move on" (what the heck does that mean, really, since I AM moving on, in my own direction), how the M must have been bad, blah, blah, blah. I just try to nod and smile -- and mostly avoid conversations with people. What would be the point? Either they really are as right as they think -- so I can save myself from looking like a fool when this is proved; or else their opinions are not at all predictive of events (they haven't been so far), in which case I can save my breath.

Blow off steam here instead. Let WP play out her little play, and see what happens. Go into Plan B darkness (so she doesn't know what you're hoping, anyway), get some popcorn, and join the audience for the show.

Dear Just J,

The lawyer-client relationship is sometimes ambiguous. The lawyer is supposed to advise the client of what the client's legal rights. Also the lawyer is supposed to advise what is in the best interests of the client, in terms of the real world.

However, having given good legal, real world and moral advice, the lawyer is supposed to serve the stated interests of the client. One limitation, is if the lawyer receives information abut a crime that is to be committed in the future, the lawyer is supposed to report the planned future cirme to authorities.

Using terms like affair for WP's relationship with OM may be considered a false statement, in civil court. Is that what your lawyer is saying? Making false, public derrogatory statements about someone may create a liability for civil action for defamation of character?

If the mother of WP is not fully trustworhty, it may be better not to give her more information than is necessary. The rules I have developed for sneaky, untrustworthy people is to avoid them, without appearing obvious about it. If I need to be with them, then I just act friendly and unsuspecting of their untrustworthiness, but minimize giving any info. I have had information I provided to sneaky people, to be twisted and used against me with other people. Sneaky people depend on having a few irrefutable facts mixed in with inuendos, that then makes their derrogatory inuendos appear as true as the facts that you have given them.

If there are others who have not demonstrated their trustworthiness to you, you might avoid unnecessary contact with them also. You might try to form better working relationships with those around WP, who can be trusted. Is there any way to improve relations with OM? OM significant others?

Communication is how you make love deposits and how you make sure that you are making the best love deposits, for your efforts. WP does not seem to be sufficiently dependent upon your support, for a Plan B strategy to bring WP back.

If you want a deeper relatinship with WP, it seems developing working realtionships with WP's trustworhty significant others could be a step. It also seems that counseling WP to assist her to separate out the untrue attacks on you, that she hears, would be helpful. Also, helping WP improve her skills of shining on sneaky people would help WP have a better opinion of you.

For counseling, I often rely upon the 0-4 Grade Charts of Human Evaluation, by L. Ron Hubbard, ($80.00 per voume, 4 voumes) Primarily counselors ask appropriate questions to bring their clients to the truth. If you have those books, you have the questions.

Are there other, non-traditional family arrangements that might be workable for you and WP? What would be a step towards a more satisfactory relationship for you?

Blessings

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

AM - I would like to be in Plan B, but my lawyer was admantly opposed to it during the custody negotiations. I am, therefore, in Plan A.

Quipper - Thanks for your thoughts. I'll consider them very carefully, and will post more later.

In further news, WP asked me to apologize publically for my comment. She said that she thought "other people" were probably upset by it as well, and since the apology made her feel better, she thought it would make other people feel better as well. I asked who she meant, and she said her mom was offended.

I was infuriated by the request and probably LBed in the process. I do distinctly recall asking her if she was going to publically apologize for the things she'd done to me in public forums. And I remember asking if her mom was going to apologize for all the awful things she's done in the last several months. WP couldn't take the onslaught and left. Sigh.

After I calmed down, I called her and said that I was not willing to post anything publically, since my words have been so badly misinterpreted in the last few months and I expect that to continue. I also said that since I didn't have a feel for what her mom's problem might be, it would be difficult to address it. I said that I'd be willing to talk to people who had concerns so that we could address the specific problem they had.

I then asked her what her mom's problem had been. She said she didn't know.

I was confused by that, and asked how she knew there was a problem, then. She said that her mom had "made a noise" when she read the e-mail, and she thought that her mom was upset by it. She just didn't know what the problem was.

I said ah. Well, I'm willing to discuss it with her if she has any concerns.


Now, I've been thinking about this ever since, and I guess there are two major things that I'm mulling over.

First, WP wants me to be the bad guy. We know this, of course, but it's interesting to watch it in action.

Second, I do not have to play the role. I can play another role if I keep my wits about me.

Third, the way I react to things like this is under MY control. And if I just think it through before I take action, I have a much better chance of getting to a good answer than one that will make things worse.


And this morning I got the "get over it and get one with your life" message that I've been expecting from my mom. I answered with "Thanks for the advice. I am committed to the vows and promises that I made to WP, and continue to hope to reconcile with her."

Anyone else who's been in this situation, how do you deal with comments like that? I really don't need them. I know exactly where our marriage is and exactly how bad things are. "Moving on" and "getting over it" are things that I'm doing. However, that does not release me from the obligations I entered into when I entered our marriage. (Note for Pepperband and other sticklers: It's not a marriage. It's a partnership. Nonetheless, I made vows and promises for a lifetime.)

WP asked me what it would take to convince me to stop waiting. I said I didn't think she could. I still think that's true.

Hello J, I do think you should minimize contact, and I can't imagine your lawyer thinks these interactions are helpful to anything. I thought part of the role of a lawyer was to be a neutral intervention in these kinds of situations, anyway, though I may be naive.

With all the LBs, this isn't a Plan A.

God, I'm at work (hardly working that is) and I read your story, how sad and at the same time inspirational. I sit hear smile and cry to read all you’ve been through and now to be able to look around and say, "I'm happy with what life gives me" what an absolute gift. Good for you! You have been a wonderful person to listen to and take advice from and I only pray things get better for you, me and everyone else at MB. That is one of my wishes, and that a sites like these would stop existing, because affairs would be a thing of the past.

Thank you, that's all I can say!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Marilyn

AM - You're right about that. It's funny; I managed much of two months without it making me crazy. I wonder why things are bothering me so much now. I can think of reasons, of course. I'm just not sure if there's a broader theme other than the individual events that have been difficult. We'll see what happens in the next few days.

One Breath - Golly. I don't even know what to say. It's been a very difficult course, and I'm so far from whole that it's kinda amusing some days. Still, when I can remember to draw on it, there is a source of strength in me that gets me through the absolutely awful things with much less damage than I would otherwise take. It took entering the gates of hell to find it, and I wouldn't recommend the path I've walked lately to anyone. Still, I'm glad I've found it and the stretches of serenity that have come to me.

Hm. I should look up grace, and read again about being in a state of grace.