Sorry...had to take a break to bathe the dog a dozen times. A skunk got her last night. Probably the same one that got her about a month ago....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! She's 13 years old and is a little bitty thing...you'd think that is she wasn't into skunks by now she wouldn't start. Those are the only two she's ever encountered and they both got her good...right in the face!

So, none of those? Well, one of them was the Type Five....F was. So you are either a Seven or an Eight.

Eight's energy goes out from them, including their anger. When an Eight has been angry with you, you won't soon forget about it. They are all about being strong. They abhor weakness in themselves or others. They will sometimes bring up a topic just to get a good arguement going. They never mind a challenge, in fact they thrive on it. They do not want to let others every have control over them or power over them in any way. They don't want to be indebted to anyone. It doesn't especially bother them if someone doesn't like them. They will protect others under them who are faithful.

Sevens are all about being happy and about avoiding pain and anxiety. They hate to be bored. They are always planning something to do even when they are in the middle of doing the last thing that they planned. They distract themselves from feeling needy and anxious by enjoying pleasures of the flesh and mental stimulation. Sevens aren't good at stopping themselves from doing things and aren't found of boundaries and limitations.

They are good at absorbing information...fast learners. They are busy and fun-loving. They enjoy being spontaneous. They are often thought of as a "jack of all trades". They approach life with curiosity. They can be scattered and unfocused at times.

Here is the Seven with an Eight wing as described by Riso and Hudson in The Wisdom of the Enneagram :

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Healthy: People of this subtype truly enjoy the world and are "materialistic" in the broadest sense of the word. They combine a quickness with drive, often leading to material success and positions of power and prominence. They are determined to get what they want from life; they think strategically and can rapidly organize their internal and external resources in pursuit of their desires. They are earthy, practical, and tough-minded. Their sense of humor expresses itself in a biting wit and a taste for the outrageous.

Average: People of this subtype apply their energies in many directions, multitasking or even "multicareering." They can be aggressive and have the willpower and drive to take care of their own needs. They tend to be more workaholic than the other subtype, coming from the strong desire to accumulate possessions and experiences. ("I'm worth it!") Their focus is more on generating activities than on connecting with people. Hence they tend to be pragmatic about relationships--looking for a partner, not a romantic fantasy figure. They are not afraid to be alone and are clear about their own expectations and how much they will tolerate. Directness can verge on bluntness and on pushing people out of the way to get what they want. Thye can be jaded and callous, in contrast to the childish hyperenthusiasm of the Six-wing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">???????

Stillwed

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

Here is more info from the Changeworks website just copied to here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> CONNECTING POINTS (Stress and Security)
Seven's Connection to 1
Healthy side of this connection brings self-discipline, follow-through, and a certain idealism. There may be a principled persistence and sober critical faculties that help the Seven to get things done. Good at balanced evaluation; they're appreciative and sort for the positive but they're nobody's fool. Ethics can be important. Want to improve things, search for "win/win" solutions to problems. Start to take life seriously enough to do things well, finish what they start. The connection to 1 generally helps Sevens become more objective and committed in ways they are comfortable with.

When more entranced, their discipline degenerates into a confining web of limits. Seven project their 1 streak and begin to react to the stuffy, pointless rules of others. May confuse discipline with repression, build a trap that they need to escape from, blame it all on you. Critical and dogmatic, can harbor perfectionistic ideals of what others should do. Start to think in black and white; can go obsessive about detail.

The other neurotic manifestation is when Sevens latch on to a Big Idea. This is an abiding principle or future possibility that the Seven is sure will resolve their present discomfort. Can grow quite deluded and obsessed. Eyes fix so completely on a future possibility that they excuse themselves from the consequences of present actions.

Movie Sevens who demonstrate this connection: Jeff Bridges, Tucker; Francis Ford Coppola, Hearts Of Darkness; Robert Duvall, Lonesome Dove; Andre Gregory, My Dinner With Andre; Hugh Hefner, Hugh Hefner: Once Upon A Time; Dennis Hopper, Flashback; Tom Hulce, Parenthood; Sidney Poitier, Lillies Of The Field; Jon Voight, Conrack.

Seven's Connection to 5
Healthy connection to 5 helps a Seven take time to contemplate and internalize their experience. Often brings sobriety, perspective, and the power to digest the experiences they have "eaten." Helps Sevens slow down, calm down, detach, see the Big Picture. May also be more willing to accept their pain and chew through it. Develop a respect for inner turmoil and deeper emotional processes that can take time. May embark on a search for philosophical wisdom. Find more depth, learn how to be alone. Some Sevens have an almost aesthetic distaste for excess that is related to this connection.

When more entranced, connection to 5 supports escapism, stinginess, and depressive tendencies. Unhealthy Sevens will check themselves out of difficult situations, withdrawing into their mind like a 5. Depersonalize - may detach from other people with frightening speed. They then move on to the attractive and new. Addiction to information, ideas, mental fantasy. Tendency to intellectualize feelings and rationalize.

The Seven style is usually generous, but this connection can bring an incongruous "cheap streak." Could pinch pennies, complain about high prices, etc. When more entranced, this can take the form of a stingy selfishness; the Seven could be talking to you about their needs even as you are feeling abandoned or let down by their broken promises. Sevens are also prone to withdrawn depressions, especially as part of a cycle of highs and lows.

Movie Sevens who demonstrate this connection: Anne Bancroft, 84 Charing Cross Road; Richard Burton, The Night Of The Iguana; Robert Duvall, Lonesome Dove; Hugh Hefner, Hugh Hefner: Once Upon A Time; Lena Olin, The Unbearable Lightness Of Being; Robert Preston, Finnegan Begin Again; Robert Redford, Out of Africa; Fred Ward, Henry And June; James Woods, Joshua Then And Now.

SUBTYPE THEMES
Self-Preservation
Self-preservation Sevens are a little confusing since they tend to be highly social. Characterized by a drive towards family and shared group experiences. Enjoy operating within their real or chosen family, checking in with a group of like-minded people. Chronic sharing on a circuit. People in the group are the source of interesting information and stimulation. Don't feel burdened or trapped by duties like a social Seven. Loyal to family, often have a 6 wing. Defend their circle and castle. Barricade, find safety in numbers. This subtype goes with the image of the "party animal." Movie examples include Auntie Mame and, especially, Hugh Hefner in Hugh Hefner: Once Upon A Time.

Intimate
Intimate Sevens tend to garnish and embellish reality with fantasy. Intimate relationships are often thought of as shared experimental adventures, and the Seven perceives their partner through a veil of imagination. May romanticize others as a way to avoid the limits and boredom of mundane life with the same old someone. Can be more involved with their fantasy of the partner than with the real person. Tentative, distractible, impersonal, may have a wandering eye. Some have great difficulty with commitment and seem fickle as they move on to the next fantasy projected onto the next new person. Don Juan scenario.

More generally, intimate Sevens have a tendency to be suggestible. They may especially seek the new with the fascinated enthusiasm of a faddist, stepping into future fantasies to avoid the present.

Good movie examples include: Julie Christie, Darling; Tom Hulce, Parenthood; Christine Lahti, Housekeeping; Karen Landry, Patti Rocks; Lena Olin, The Unbearable Lightness Of Being.

Social
Social Sevens often feel a tension between duty to others and the desire to escape. Tend to feel responsible for the people around them and experience that as a confining burden. They then react against the weight of obligation, seeking variety and craving change. When entranced, can be highly irresponsible. When awakened, they make peace with commitment and sacrifice and are often very stable and generous. Often an idealism, sometimes a stronger connection to 1. Serving something beyond themselves, dutiful. Can be from a large family where they had lots of responsibility, eldest child. With an 8 wing they tend to fight the sense of burden harder.

Movie examples include: Beau Bridges, The Fabulous Baker Boys; Cher, Mermaids; Tom Hanks, Nothing In Common; Sidney Poitier, Lillies Of The Field, James Woods, Joshua, Then and Now. Also Christine Lahti in Housekeeping, though her basic subtype is intimate.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, you were right about your connection to Five! I didn't know that Five was the Security type of Seven. That explains why my oldest son, the Seven, is so fond of the youngest son, the Five! I learn something new every day with this stuff!

So, when you are feeling really stressed you might shift to Type One. When you are feeling relaxed and comfortable, you can shift to the Type Five. When you are feeling exhausted or overwhelmed you might shift toward the Five, also. When you make these shifts you may take on the higher qualities of that type of the lower ones depending on the circumstances.

So, after a bit of reading, you should have a pretty good idea of how you operate. That should give you a pretty good idea of what to be aware of.

Here is what the Seven needs to work toward on their path toward personal growth, copied here from the www.enneagraminstitute.com:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Personal Growth Recommendations
for Enneagram Type Sevens

Recognize your impulsiveness, and get in the habit of observing your impulses rather than giving in to them. This means letting most of your impulses pass and becoming a better judge of which ones are worth acting on. The more you can resist acting out your impulses, the more you will be able to focus on what is really good for you.

Learn to listen to other people. They are often interesting, and you may learn things that will open new doors for you. Also learn to appreciate silence and solitude: you do not have to distract yourself (and protect yourself from anxiety) with constant noise from the television or the stereo. By learning to live with less external stimulation, you will learn to trust yourself. You will be happier than you expect because you will be satisfied with whatever you do, even if it is less than you have been doing.

You do not have to have everything this very moment. That tempting new acquisition will most likely still be available tomorrow (this is certainly true of food, alcohol, and other common gratifications—that ice cream cone, for instance). Most good opportunities will come back again—and you will be in a better position to discern which opportunities really are best for you.

Always choose quality over quantity, especially in your experiences. The ability to have experiences of quality can be learned only by giving your full attention to the experience you are having now. If you keep anticipating future experiences, you will keep missing the present one and undermine the possibility of ever being satisfied.

Make sure that what you want will really be good for you in the long run. As the saying goes, watch what you pray for since your prayers may be answered. In the same vein, think about the long-term consequences of what you want since you may get it only to find that it becomes another disappointment—or even a source of unhappiness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is a bit to get you started. This is mostly about awareness of yourself. The Enneagram basically tells you which "box" you are already in. It is the strategy you used to survive your childhood. It is not you, or your essense, it's about how you relate to others and how you process your emotions. As kids, we needed to develop a survival strategy, but as adults we have more choices available to us to choose from. We can look at our behavior, keep what we like, and be aware of the rest, slowly changing it by being aware of it.

One important thing to work on for everybody is genuine self-esteem. Self-esteem is what we think of ourselves. It's important that we love ourselves as we are and trust that we are okay even with our faults. The goal isn't to be perfect, it's to accept and love ourselves because we are , not because we do .

A little food for thought!

Stillwed

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

Well, one way to make a choice would be to tell your wife...she just might help you make one!

Seven's generally don't stay in an unhappy relationship. If you are materialistic, you most likely aren't a Five. My son is a Five and he owns all of 2 or 3 pair of shoes at a time. His existence is spartan and that is a Five trait. That doesn't mean that you don't have lots of Five traits since you would go there as a Security type.

What I find interesting is that you want answers, but you don't seem to want to work for them. This isn't supposed to be exclusively fun. I was trying to make it fun and keep it lighthearted to keep you interested. That's the only way I can hold the attention of my Type Seven son. As a One, I go to Seven as a security point. I "get" Seven. I also go there when I'm exhausted and overwhelmed, which would explain where I've been for the past 8 months since my H revealed his affairs. I've been so scattered that I can barely keep my house clean...and I'm the perfectionist.

So, not reprimanding you here...just pointing out that you do have a problem. You created it. You need to learn more about you so you can decide how you want to fix it. Nobody else can decide for you. The future of your wife and your daughter depend on it. How your daughter will view you in the future depends on it. The personality strategy that your daughter develops in response to your parenting depends on it. Do you want to leave that to her Mom and a step-dad? Your personality type will usually choose what feels good and what they really want over what they know they should do. Is that the direction that you want to go? Do you want to be ordinary or extraordinary? Emotionally healthy or unhealthy? You get to make all of those decisions. Not all that off-topic if you think about it.

There is lots of info on the web about the Enneagram. The best beginner book I've found is called The Essential Enneagram: The Definitive Personality Test and Self-Discovery Guide by Daniels and Price. My all-time favorite is The Wisdom of the Enneagram: The Complete Guide to the Psychological and Spiritual Growth for the Nine Personality Types by Riso and Hudson. Another by Riso and Hudson is called Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery . I found them all on Amazon.com for a discounted price and free shipping.

Hope that helps! Take care. I'm off to bathe the dog again...didn't get it all the first 12 times I guess!

Stillwed

Rereading your post I had a couple more thoughts before I go:

You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm also a Virgo born in the Chinese year of the **** (go figure). I'm a strong D in the DISC leadership style matrix.

I'm done with this. Now what? I'm becoming numb. Numb has always been a defense method for me. Grit my teeth, take the pain, until pain becomes numbeness and has no power over me. Trouble is, numbness feels nothing, and the source of the pain is still there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H uses DISC in his training job. He says that D's are the least enthused about learning about themselves or even taking the DISC test. I'm a CD. I resisted too!

Numbness is what Sevens do to try and not feel their anxiety. Try and stop and be with that anxiety instead of trying to outrun it.

Stillwed

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

Stillwed,

I appreciate that your intentions are good, but you've kind of highjacked this thread to do your own thing with the enneagram.

My concern is that you've alienated the kind of help 8TL needs right now. People going through this thread won't see much they can recognize as MB.

This isn't an enneagram board, after all, it's an MB board.

Maybe this enneagram stuff could be better handled by private correspondence?

I can just divorce, abandoning my kids in an environment that may be damaging to them.
Nonsense, we have already established that you love your children and have a spine.
I can divorce and try to take the kids, damaging them. Could work, could fail, leading to the above.
This is a possibility, it is not the first option but the last option. First you need to deal with these problems, if you run now they will follow.
I can try to convince my wife to leave the churchlife, which I will cause conflict. If I stand my ground it will end in divorce of one of the two types listed above, likely the first.
Your wife is involved with a disturbing movement that Christian scholars describe as a cult. This is the 'for worse' part of your vows. You may not abdicate your responsibility to her by running
I can try to convince my wife to leave the churchlife is a gradual, long-term kind of way, and pray pray pray. That was I can be in conflict long term. Might end in divorce. Might not.
You have just crossed back over into spinehood, that's my boy

I can swallow it and just go on, waiting until the next time this subject arises.
Do I even need to discuss this with you seriously, stop it.
I can dive into the churchlife and forget myself entirely, becoming one of "them."
Re-read what you said about loving your children and what the Bible says regarding your responsibility to them.
Did I miss any?
YES. Stop it, stop allowing yourself to sink into despair and fight darn you, you are better than this and you know, your kids need it and your wife deserves it.

Your own questions are ones you know the answers to which is why I am not sugar-coating it. FOCUS on the issues here and start developin a plan to deal with them. In your next post please detail for me the rough outline of a plan that would restore your marriage, family and SELF to the YOU that you are capable of being. I don't buy this, you are not a coward. Give us an outline and we'll help fill it in.

MOVE!

A.M. Martin,

You have truly offended me and you know what...I'm not easily offended. This is a man in pain. This is a WS. I did not condemn him. I reached out in the best way I know how. If my H had found the Enneagram and understood himself sooner, I wouldn't be going through the pain that I am now. My H's Enneagram type is Four. That type feels a hole in their heart that is so large that they seek to fill it their entire lives...including trying to find a mate to perfectly fill it. When he learned this about himself he was able to realize that his hole could only be filled spiritually. I have to live with the horror that he was with 9 other women before he figured that out. If I can save one person from going through that I will.

I've been through HELL, literally. We, as a couple and as individuals have found this to be a tool for growth. The only way to heal a marriage is to heal the individuals in it...period.

Maybe you have a better way...apparently you do. I'm finished here anyway.

Stillwed

From 8's original post:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not really looking for answers, just venting. She is extremely important to me, in any capacity. But I want to be her lover. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I take that back Martin, you are right, I was off topic...he didn't want help from any of us...he was just venting!

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

Neutral corners please (2W3 trying to help and keep peace SW)

8-time:
Need my outline buddy.

2ofaKind,

It would help if PM were available on this forum. I backed down from DK on a very mean post that he/she/they deleted before the moderators could see it (about a month ago). Now, I just spent my entire day trying to help 8Time to type himself so that he can understand himself enough to make the wise choices that you are trying to show him. If he knows where his strengths and weaknesses lie then he can find the strength to do the right thing. He literally wants it all...and that's typical for his type. My son does that. He deals with it every day. Knowing that about himself might help 8Time to realize just how important it is that he does not go with his natural flow here, but fight his way out of it and fast.

I posted to him on the beginning of this thread when most people were bashing him for being the WS. Then the only reason I came over here again (since he didn't seem interested in my first post...which was fine by the way) was because of your thread about his situation with his wife being in the Local Church. It gave me a lot of insight into his situation and I realized that the only way he gets out of this alive and well is to get emotionally healthy. It might not be the first step, but when I posted, he wasn't taking any steps anyway!

I have pretty decent intuition. It's not always perfect, but that is usually when I'm not listening very well. I believe that I was really listening this time. That's why I responded to A.M. Martin the way I did. I'm not a mean-spirited person. I don't hold grudges when someone tells me they are sorry. For pete's sake, look at my signature line! I'm just sticking up for my point of view here and I don't usually do that either...unless I feel that it is really important to make that point.

I really like you 2oak! You give good solid, heartfelt advice. I do too...or at least it's heartfelt. I take a lot of my time to help when someone is willing to listen. Quite frankly, A.M.'s post brought me to tears.

I truly respect you and I mean that.

Stillwed

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

Stillwed,

Gonna post to you about this on a new thread.

8 time, outline or rulers across knuckles bubba.

2.

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

8time, you get melodramatic when we leave you alone in the corner to sulk, quit that crap.

You know that joining a church that experts call a cult is not your answer. Go check out your other thread on recovery for a suggestion on that.

Second, that is a paln that sounds like something from the French department of defense:
"Uh-oh, bad guys are coming, grab something white to wave" Soe-reeeee 0 points for that answer, you can do better.

Ok, let's try this again with clearer instructions. First of all, time to change your outlook from general questions to that of someone who has been diagnosed and is in recovery so post your answer to this little exercise over there.

1. I am not interested in options that involve OW or you allowing your family to join a cult that you honestly believe is misguided, knock it off. Feelings of withdrawal? worth a discussion, as long as it is due to the recognition that she is no longer part of this.

2. Let's pretend for a moment that there is more than two solutions (Run or surrender) to the problem. I want to know what you WANT for your family, not what you think the options are.

3. List what has to change to go from here to there.

4. Put that plan down to e-paper on recovery and ask for help in shaping it into concrete steps that work toward the conclusion.

You are quite welcome to lead with something mopey like "There is no hope and my name is woe but that rotten [censored] 2ofakind put me up to this useless exercise so please tell him it is futile"

Go do it, you are worth bothering with

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

8TL - hmmm....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My choices are made for me.

I must stay in this relationship. I love my wife and my children more than I ever thought possible. Despite the Churchlife issues I must stay.

I must attend the Churchlife meetings with them. I must be involved with my family as they try to relate to God. I do believe that God will find the faithful no matter where they are, even if they are in the wrong place, and they can even find salvation there. My wife's salvation is obvious. But I will not let them be without me in that place.

I must pray, even while I am surrounded by those I consider lost, lied to and wrong. I don't want to be a martyr, or even a great man. I just want my family. I pray now, and I believe it has brought me to this point in my life. Prayer has brought me pain.

I have two options, to stay or to go. Both hold damnation or salvation, but it's impossible to know which. Will the Lord bless me for forsaking my family to seek Him? By losing my family and the life I have built to seek Him will I be blessed with greater wealth of family and love? If I give my life to my family, and abandon myself and seek him in this wrongful place, will I be rewarded for my faith? Am I to be drawn into the Chruchlife to find him, or somehow lead my family out into the light? Am I to lead a life in misery in the hopes that there really is a reward everlasting? I don't think I can live that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, you've not decided to respond to my earlier questions, so I will simply make a brief comment and then leave you to your own devices. Why? Because you claim to be a Christian and yet you walk in your own counsel and not Gods. You don't even have a copy of the "Plan" in your home and you refuse to go get a copy of the "roadmap". Typical male, but bullheaded.

If you think that living with sinners is going to help, them by all means attend the Local Church. If you think that the only "right" answer from God is a "YES" answer to whatever YOU desire, then by all means do whatever YOU think is right for you. But DON'T try to "pin the blame" on God.

If you do decide to walk in humble obedience to God, it takes surrendering the notion that "the only answer I'll take is for God to agree with me and give me what I want". God is Sovereign, not you or me. The cost of following God is sometimes high. But you have a "mission field" and that field is right within your own marriage and extended family. BUT you have to understand what it means to follow God, who Christ is, and how to share that faith, especially with someone who believes in a "twisted" form of "Christianity".

But if you are not willing to surrender all to God, it's going to be a long and rocky road.

Do you feel like Job? Many of us have. Go get that Bible and read it and stop being blown to and fro by your emotions without any "truth" to guide you.

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>