Dear 8 time...

I am familiar with the Local Church and yes, I agree that you do have a problem. I can understand why you feel that you and your wife will never have the connection you need and I tend to agree with you. This is a tough spot to be in.

My H and I were involved in a church that is similar for about 8 years when we were first married. We did manage to get out, but checked out the Local Church as an alternative. We have a friend that is still involved in it. My H's brother is a leader in the church we were in so we had quite a falling out when we left.

Now, aside from all of that, YOU still need to get healthy, right? You need to be there for your kids and even your wife. People DO change...they even change beliefs. I would have never dreamed of leaving the church we were in, but then we did! What might eventually lead her back to reality is this...a really healthy husband. Of course, there is no guarantee, but it is something you need to do for you and the kids anyway so why not?

I know that you said that you haven't taken any quizzes, etc. Okay, I'm asking you to take one. It's in my signature line and it's called the Enneagram personality assessment. You are exibiting classic Type Four behavior and that is my H's type. I can help you with that. He can help you with that. It will comfort you to know that you aren't the only person like that. I may be way off...it's up to you to find your type, not me, but please at least try the test. Answer the questions as you would have in your early twenties to get your most accurate type. Do it for the kids. You've got to be a man that they can look up to. He's in there. You can forgive yourself, if you understand yourself.

Stillwed

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

Okay...bless you for taking that! I know it's hard sometimes to do this stuff when you are already going through so much.

Okay...we've got the top couple of contenders. It's really hard to make these tests accurate so I'm going to give you a few paragraphs to choose from that correlate with your highest scores. Read each one and see which fits you best. They are from The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
D) I am sensitive to other people's feelings. I can see what they need, even when I don't know them. Sometimes it's frustrating to be so aware of people's needs, especially their pain or unhappiness, because I'm not able to do as much for them as I'd like to. It's easy for me to give of myself. I sometimes wish I were better at saying no, because I end up putting more energy into caring for others than into taking care of myself. It hurts my feelings if people think I'm trying to manipulate them or control them when all I'm trying to do is understand and help them. I like to be seen as a warmhearted and good person, but when I'm not taken into account or appreciated I ca become very emotional or even demanding. Good relationshps mean a great deal to me, and I'm willing to work hard to make them happen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I) I am a sensitive person with intense feelings. I often feel misunderstood and lonely, because I feel different from everyone else. My behavior can appear like drama to to others, and I have been criticized for being overly sensitive and overamplifying my feelings. What is really going on inside is my longing for both emotional connection and a deeply felt experience of relationship. I have difficulty fully appreciating present relationships because of my tendency to want what I can't have and to disdain what I do have. The search for emotional connection has been with me all of my life, and the absence of emotional connection has led to melancholy and depression. I sometimes wonder why other people seem to have more than I do--better relationships and happier lives. I have a refined sense of aesthetics, and I experinece a rich world of emotions and meaning.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A) I approach things in an all-or-nothing way, especially issues that matter to me. I place a lot of value on being strong, honest, and dependable. What you see is what you get. I don't trust others until they have proven themselves to be reliable. I like people to be direct with me, and I know what someone is being devious, lying, or trying to manipulate me. I have a hard time tolerating weakness in people, unless I understand the reason for their weakness or I see that they're trying to do something about it. I also have hard time following orders or direction if I do not respect or agree with the person in authority. I am much better at taking charge myself. I find it difficult to display my feelings when I am angry. I am always ready to stick up for my friends or loved ones, especially if I think they are being treated unjustly. I may not win every battle with others, but they'll know I've been there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
E) Being the best at what I do is a strong motivator for me, and I have received a lot of recognition over the years for my accomplishments. I get a lot done and am successful in almost everything I take on. I identify strongly with what I do, because to a large degree I think your value is based on what you accomplish and the recognition you get for it. I always have more to do than will fit into the time available, so I often set aside feelings and self-reflection in order to get things done. Because there's always something to do, I find it hard to just sit and do nothing. I get impatient with people who don't use my time well. Sometimes I would rather just take over a project someone is completing too slowly. I like to feel and appear "on top" of any situation. While I like to compete, I am also a good team player. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stillwed

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

Well 8-timer... we did some research and the word cult came up frequently. C'mon over to the board 'recovery' and start a new intro thread.. mention at the top that I asked you to do so and thought that the folks who dwell there might help some. You've aleady met some

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

Yes 8-time, you are screwed, but not irreversibly screwed my friend.

The worst news is that you are a 2w3 - me as well!

Listen - I read a LOT about this church last night and it is very clearly exhibiting the signs of a cult if you think Walter Martin and other experts have merit.

Since you do believe in God and accept the Bible (not her church's re-write of it) then one fact you can't get around is the fact that you are responsible for being her leader in the spirituality department, not easy but even her Bible says this. The conundrum will be that her 'bible' says that you are responsible for leading her in the Local church or else you are leading her to Satan.

My firend, you will find support here and strength from God if you ask for it but you are going to need a professional's assistance.

Keep learning, keep pushing yourself and keep remembering this - deep down you know that pursuing another woman, a married one at that, is not God's instruction... From my own experience whenever I argue He wins and He does not even play fair :-) Hard to argue with Him.

But hey, you are not a quitter, wimp or coward and you are going to change. You don't sound better in a happy happy joy joy way. You sound better in that you are breakign your own illusions and acknowledging that you need help to solve your problems. As a 2W3 that is tough - admitting you need help since giving help is more in your nature.

YOU CAN do this.

Again, it is a decision you must make - to want help and seek help and make it work.

For what little it is worth I am proud of you for taking the first step. Time for another one buddy.

How about talking to someone in your church for help with the Elephant in your living room - wife's cult.

one day at a time buddy.

Hey 8-time,

I'm going to type you a few more paragraphs from The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price. Please do use all of them, including the ones from before and pick the top two or three. Then we'll narrow it down with a few more questions. Sorry to be so insistent that we get it right...but it reallly is important. The one you threw out for sure is the Type Two...that's why I want to make sure we're getting this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> B) I have high internal standards for correctness, and I expect myself to live up to those standards. It's easy for me to see what's wrong with the things as they are and to see how they could be improved. I may come across to some people as overly critical or demanding perfection, but it's hard for me to ignore or accept things that are not done the right way. I prided my myself on the fact that if I'm responsible for doing something, you can be sure I'll do it right. I sometimes have feelnigs of resentment when people don't try to do things properly or when prople act irresponsibly or unfairly, although I usually try not to show it to them openly. for me, it is usually work before pleasure, and I suppress my desires as necessary to get the work done.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> H) I am an optimistic person who enjoys coming up with new and interesting things to do. I have a very active mind that quickly moves back and forth between different ideas. I like to get a global picture of how all these ideas fit together, and I get excited when I can connect concepts that initially don't apprear to be related. I like to work on things that interest me, and I have a lot of energy to devote to them. I have a hard time sticking with unrewarding and repetitive tasks. I like to be in on the beginning of a project, during the planning phase, when there may be many interesting options to consider. when I have exhausted my interest in something, it is difficult for me to stay with it, because I want to move on to the next thing that has captured my interest. If something gets me down, I prefer to shift my attention to more pleasant ideas. I believe people are entitled to an enjoyable life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'm going to stop there, but have three more in my arsenal to give you if we need to...lol! Give me your top two unless a third one needs to go in there because it's so close!

Thanks...

stillwed

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

Okay, that second one is the Type Seven and they are definitely a pleasure for the sake of pleasure kind of person. They like to be happy. My oldest son is a Seven and he's a gem. They are pretty laid back and have a hard time keeping their interest in something once it's well underway. They prefer the early planning stages of getting the idea and thinking about how fun it's going to be to do it. About half way into that project they are planning the next one..lol! My son was an excellent student except for one small problem...he didn't like homework. He actually ended up flunking one class in high school because they weighted the homework grade so heavily. He knew the material and got an A on every test, but didn't care to do the homework...he was busy fishing...hehe.

So does this sound like you at all? Here's a link to read about the Seven. See if you think it fits you.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeSeven.asp

http://www.thechangeworks.com/ennprimer/enn9styls2.html#M

I have a hunch that if you are a Seven, then you have an Eight-wing.

Here's a description of the Seven with an Eight-wing (and I thought that BEFORE I read the last sentence by the way...hehe). This is from the same website as above...Changeworks.com:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seven With an 8 Wing
When healthy, Sevens with an 8 wing are often generous, gregarious and expansive. Tend to be exceptionally loyal to their friends, especially when social subtype. Leap aggressively to the defense of those they care for. Might seem loud or boisterous although some are urbane and witty. Enjoy social celebrations, storytelling, jokes, food and travel. Generally have a strong self-confidence for worldly matters and getting what they want. Talent for making something out of nothing - entrepreneurial. Usually share what they have when healthy, want everyone to enjoy their sense of bounty and wide range of interests.

When more entranced, they may be demanding, displaying a selfish impatience and a self-justifying narcissism. May want what they want right now. Aggressive, hasty drive to acquire money and material options and recognition. Can demand that the people in their lives say only what the Seven wants to hear - sugarcoated truth. Lash out angrily if reality doesn't meet their expectations; sometimes vengeful. Often perfectionistic as parents (low side of 1). Moralize to others and then are themselves irresponsible. Amnesia for promises made in an expansive moment. Particular difficulty with sexual fidelity.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once you find your type, there are three subtypes to choose from eventually. You don't need to know that right now, but I thought that I'd throw it in here. Here's a little more from the same website.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SUBTYPE THEMES
Self-Preservation
Self-preservation Sevens are a little confusing since they tend to be highly social. Characterized by a drive towards family and shared group experiences. Enjoy operating within their real or chosen family, checking in with a group of like-minded people. Chronic sharing on a circuit. People in the group are the source of interesting information and stimulation. Don't feel burdened or trapped by duties like a social Seven. Loyal to family, often have a 6 wing. Defend their circle and castle. Barricade, find safety in numbers. This subtype goes with the image of the "party animal." Movie examples include Auntie Mame and, especially, Hugh Hefner in Hugh Hefner: Once Upon A Time.

Intimate
Intimate Sevens tend to garnish and embellish reality with fantasy. Intimate relationships are often thought of as shared experimental adventures, and the Seven perceives their partner through a veil of imagination. May romanticize others as a way to avoid the limits and boredom of mundane life with the same old someone. Can be more involved with their fantasy of the partner than with the real person. Tentative, distractible, impersonal, may have a wandering eye. Some have great difficulty with commitment and seem fickle as they move on to the next fantasy projected onto the next new person. Don Juan scenario.

More generally, intimate Sevens have a tendency to be suggestible. They may especially seek the new with the fascinated enthusiasm of a faddist, stepping into future fantasies to avoid the present.

Good movie examples include: Julie Christie, Darling; Tom Hulce, Parenthood; Christine Lahti, Housekeeping; Karen Landry, Patti Rocks; Lena Olin, The Unbearable Lightness Of Being.

Social
Social Sevens often feel a tension between duty to others and the desire to escape. Tend to feel responsible for the people around them and experience that as a confining burden. They then react against the weight of obligation, seeking variety and craving change. When entranced, can be highly irresponsible. When awakened, they make peace with commitment and sacrifice and are often very stable and generous. Often an idealism, sometimes a stronger connection to 1. Serving something beyond themselves, dutiful. Can be from a large family where they had lots of responsibility, eldest child. With an 8 wing they tend to fight the sense of burden harder.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think? Do these descriptions hit home for you? Let me know. The paragraphs that I gave you were (in this order) Type Two, Four, Eight, Three, One and Seven. You seemed to relate to the Seven and Eight the most. So how are we doing?

Stillwed

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

Dear 8-time:

You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are we done with that now?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that tells me you are a Seven...lol...that's exactly what my Son would say!

Stillwed

Just a bit more torture here. This is a paragraph from The Essential Enneagram to help you distinguish between a Seven and an Eight:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Types Seven and Eight. Epicures (Sevens) and Protectors look alike because as wings of each other they share certain personality traits. Both are self-assertive, express their wants and desires, believe in their own power and ability, resist limits and controls, and are pleasure oriented. Both have high energy and little inner restraining force. Epicures avoid pain, explain away or rationalize difficulties, escape conflicts, and go into future planning. Protectors, however, accept pain, engage in difficulties, confront conflicts directly, and live mostly in the present . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So do you move straight ahead into conflict without looking back? Are you confrontational like the Eight or are you more laid back and like to avoid conflict like the Seven. It does make a difference or I wouldn't be putting you through this...I promise!

Stillwed

I just read your edit on your last post...wow...not a Seven. Well, let me think here!

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

Do you commonly walk up to someone you have a problem with and tell them flat out what the problem is?

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

Okay, here are the rest of the paragraphs...there are only nine all together and we've tried six so why not add the rest? This is from The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> C) I seem to be able to see all points of view pretty easily. I may even appear indecisive at times because I can see advantages and disadvantages on all sides. The ability to see all sides makes me good at helping people resolve their differences. This same ability can sometimes lead me to be more aware of other people's positions, agendas, and personal priorities than of my own. It is not unusual for me to become distracted and then to get off task on the important things I'm trying to do. When that happens, my attention is often diverted to unimportant trivial tasks. I have a hard time knowing what is really important to me, and I avoid conflict by going along with what others want. People tend to consider me to be easygoing, pleasing and agreeable. It takes a lot to ge me to the point of showing my anger directly at someone. I like life to be comfortable, harmonious, and others to be accepting of me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> G) I have a vivid imagination, especially when it comes to what might be threatening to safety and security. I can usually spot what could be dangerous or hurtful and my experience as much fear as if it were really happening. I either always avoid danger or always challenge it head-on. My imagination also leads to my ingenuity and a good, if somewhat offbeat, sense of humor. I would like for life to be more certain, but in general I seem to doubt the people and things around me. I can usually see the shortcomings in the view someone is putting forward. I suppose that, as a consequence, some people may consider me to be very astute. I tend to be suspicious of authority and am not particularly comfortable being seen as the authority. Because I can see what is wrong with the generally held view of things, I tend to identify with underdog causes. Once I have committed myself to a person or cause, I am very loyal to it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> F) I would characterize myself as a quiet, analytical person who needs more time alone than most people do. I usually prefer to observe what is going on rather than be involved in the middle of it. I don't like people to place too many demands on me or to expect me to know and report what I am feeling. I'm able to get in touch with my feelings better when alone than with others, and I often enjoy experiences I've had more when reliving them than when actually going through them. I'm almost never bored when alone, because I have an active mental life. It is important for me to protect my time and energy and hence, to live a dimple, uncomplicated life and be as self-sufficient as possible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going back and editing the previous ones and labeling each with a letter so you can give me your top pick.

Stillwed

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

Yeah...you stumped me when you said that the Seven didn't fit. If these next three don't fit like a glove then I think Seven is your best bet. What do you think?

Still

P.S. Just for the record...this process usually isn't this long so hang in there with me if you can!

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>