STTSI and IM,

Ok, we are into serious stuff now. IM does your IC know about your past experience with anti-D's? If so what is different this time. IM it is hard to fault STTSI for worrying about your life. It is very clear he has a deep fear of losing you here, and it is your job and perhaps the IC's job to sit down and discuss the pro's and con's of this decision with him as part of it.

In some ways this is NOT a POJA issue. It is far more serious than that. POJA is a relationship negotiating tool. Life and death is not something one negotiates. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

IM is sense an attitude with you that is bothersome. You seem to feel STTSI is picking on you or something. I really think you need to stop and really reevaluate some very obvious facts.

IM you started an affair only a few weeks after STTSI. You filed for divorce and you apparently wanted out. Your H hung in there trying to save it, but you continued to push. He gave up, and then you decided you wanted the marriage. You wanted to come back and he let you back into his life.

Now one can make a lot of inferences from all of this but one fact is very clear. You came back because you did love him, and he endured and let you back into his life because he loved you.

You two need to stop all of the bickering, fooling around and look at one another and realize you are looking at someone that loves you. It is time you two started applying the four rules and realize what you have here. Focus on the very obvious positives.

If you two were my children I would twack you both up side the head and tell you to start behaving and thinking right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You all are dealing with some very serious stuff here. Her depression and the possibility no matter how remote IM thinks of suicide. Folks, quit fooling with the small stuff and make some decisions.

God Bless You Both,

JL

JL - I will respond to your questions...

IM does your IC know about your past experience with anti-D's? If so what is different this time. IM it is hard to fault STTSI for worrying about your life. It is very clear he has a deep fear of losing you here, and it is your job and perhaps the IC's job to sit down and discuss the pro's and con's of this decision with him as part of it.

Yes she does. I tried to talk to H about it last night and he shut down. H is suppose to go to therapy with me tomorrow. I'd like to talk to him with IC tomorrow about anti - d's. I would have liked to talk to him about options last night, but like I said, he shut down.

Now one can make a lot of inferences from all of this but one fact is very clear. You came back because you did love him, and he endured and let you back into his life because he loved you.

This is true. I still love my H and I think (and feel) that he still loves me too

You two need to stop all of the bickering, fooling around and look at one another and realize you are looking at someone that loves you. It is time you two started applying the four rules and realize what you have here. Focus on the very obvious positives.

We are going to go to the MB weekend in 2 weeks. Hopefully that will help us.

If you two were my children I would twack you both up side the head and tell you to start behaving and thinking right.

Thanks for the twack <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You all are dealing with some very serious stuff here. Her depression and the possibility no matter how remote IM thinks of suicide. Folks, quit fooling with the small stuff and make some decisions.

H and I have talked fairly extensivley about the suicide issue and why I feel that way. I know that it is time to make changes in OUR lives, not just mine

JL - Thanks for the words of encouragement and concern. I appreciate it.

may i ask which doc and/or ic keeps prescribing meds that lead you to be suicidal? is this person one and the same? are these the same meds each time? is it time for a new doc and different meds? cripes, your meds shouldn't be working that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

W, this thread was never meant to vent about you! It was meant to expalin the problems we are having to others so we can seek help, advice and support. Like I have told you before, feel free to chime in any time you would like.

OK, moving on. I have printed off a grip of MB stuff and I will read it again to see what areas I still need to improve in. I will report my findings when I am done.

Thanks

Alright...

H and I talked for a while tonight and we decided that if I shared some information with you all, that maybe better (more) advice could be offered. Before anyone asks - YES, THIS WAS POJA'D...

H has always thought that there was some form of abuse in my past, he never mentioned anything to me about it before. He thought that I would only get upset about it (he's probably right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

I have been working with my IC for a while now and have been recently diagnosed with D.I.D. (Dissociative Identity Disorder - fka Multiple Personality Disorder) resulting from past childhood abuses. Therapist and I are still working on the issues that surrond the abuse however.

H has been really good about helping me through the memories and the flashbacks that I am having, although it is hard when we are not really talking to each other <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am not sure if any of this information is going to make a difference to anyone, but like I said, H and I talked about it, and we POJA'D that if people knew more of the story, better advice could be offered to us...

So, if anyone has had any experience with D.I.D. or if there are any new insights that someone would like to share, please do so.

Thank You...

I don't know a darned thing about DID. But I -do- think it's absolutely great that you guys POJA'd what you were going to say on this thread, IM!

Cerri posted a very gentle note on that earlier, and I'm not sure that either of you picked up on it. Me, I'm going to 2x4 ya both on this point: Why the heck are you coming here to vent about each other when you can actually TALK TO EACH OTHER???

It's so much better to jointly ask for advice and thoughts, rather than beating each other up because you're not really listening to each other, and not really seeing -why- the other person is acting the way they are.

But you have that chance. You're together and trying to recover. Golly, I would give all four of my eye teeth and a few molars to be able to talk to my WP and have some sense that she'd listen to me. Don't come here to vent about each other when you can actually talk to each other. Put your energy there, where it'll actually do you some good!

I know it's hard. You guys get angry, you shut down, you get freaked and you say things you never should've said. (My lawyer calls this "toads coming out of your mouth.)

So..... STOP IT. Just stop it. Y'all both have control over your own actions. Stop doing that stuff.

It's HARD.

It's the hardest thing I've ever done, and I'm nowhere near finished.

But you -can- do it. In time, and with patience, and knowing that you HAVE to do it, you can stop punishing each other with your emotional reactions. Shutting down is punishing. Venting is punishing. They're all LBs.

I'm really, really glad you guys are going to the MB weekend, 'cause I think you'll learn a huge amount from it and your assignments afterwards. I hope you get Cerri as your mentor!

Ok, that's enough thwacking from me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK, I have had some time to re-read the MB stuff. I haven't read it all but I am getting there.

Things for me to work on as I see it:
1. Be more patient - I am asking W for major changes in her personality as she is asking them of me also. I get frustrated and upset when she reverts back to her old-self. I need to give her time to change for her and for us.

2. Focus on the positives - Althought the negatives seem over-whelming, there are some positives to come out of this. I could lidt them all but I don't think you guys really care about it.

3. Reward good behavior and don't get upset at bad behavior - This grows off of numbers 1 and 2. I have never been one to compliment goo behavior but I sure can point out bad behavior. The other day, I asked W more questions about the A (we are at the one-year anniversary of things), when we were done I hugged her and we cuddled for some time after.

4. ALWAYS be open and honest - I know I too have broken POJA. My problem is that W and I talk and try to negotiate something and them she does something different. That really upsets me and them I close down and don't want to be open with her since it seems to me that she doesn't care about my feelings.

So that is what I see that I need to work on. 1 and 4 will probably be the hardest for me. Any advice on a plan for how I can work on these?

Thoughts?

STTSI, when you and IMR2T do a POJA, how long a time period would you say exists between the final POJA and its actual execution (or non execution)? I ask because if its a day or more, it might be a good idea to revisit the POJA at the closests point to its execution to see it if it is still viable AND to bring it back into the forefront of BOTH your minds. Remember that old habits are hard to break.

One last thing, cut yourself and IMR2T some slack because the POJA is one difficult motha to master but it is worth it when you experience firsthand its dividens when it is succesfully executed. It would be a good idea to add point #5: Celebrate when a POJA has been succesfully executed (what was agreed to was achieved).

TMCM-

The answer is "It depends" Some are long standing things, some are things we POJA today for something that happens tomorrow.

She said I told her once that once we agree on something it can't ever be re-negotiated. I don't ever recall saying that but that would explain some things.

W had suggested that we write down the things we agree to so that we have a record what it is. I have never liked that idea since I was always accused from the beginning of running our M like it was a business. That would seem to me like a contract between two partners and I don't want W to think that our M is a business. That is why I have never liked that idea. Her IC suggests that we do that also because of her DID. She said I could negotiate something with one personality while the others would not have any recollection of what we agreed to. So I will re-suggest her idea again and give it a try.

About point number 5 you suggested. Sunday night, W asked me about doing some shopping and how I felt about it. I never really answered and changed the subject. Last night, W called me to ask again how I felt about it. When I called her again later to ask her if she had gone shopping in my absence she said no we never agreed to it. To that I thanked her for keeping my feelings in mind and told her how happy I was to hear her say that. Because she took my feeling into account last night I felt love for her and was very affectionate to her, which she really likes.

STTSI,

"It Depends" ! Do you work for the US Government?? Whenever you ask a question of the Government, IRS, whatever, the answer is... IT DEPENDS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think Coffeman's suggestion is on the mark. Perhaps you should practice the POJA on small things until you two understand the art of negotiation. Finally, I firmly agree to write things down. Businesses are not the only place that writes things down. You should see the calenders in our house. So many things going on, so many commitments, one needs to write things down to remember them. So I would submit to you that writing something down is not good business, it is good household management. AND your W apparently needs it right now.

STTSI, I don't know why I feel this, but I feel that you are going to have to "teach" your W many things about relationships. I don't mean "educate" her, I mean teach by example, positive reinforcement. BUT (you knew that was coming <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), you will have to learn the subject well yourself before you can. THe ole' GOTTCHA!

You two hang in there. It seems from this vantage point that progress is being made.

God Bless,

JL

Yep I too agree with the idea of writting POJA's on paper, and I would take it a little bit further by suggesting that you writte them on a joint daily journal that you can use to keep track the progress of your marital and personal recoveries. Since it would be a joint journal IMR2T could use it to add her side of things as well. The journal could also point out when anyone or both of you screwed up, because by writting things down neither of you could use emotionally induced amnesia to say to each other 'I didn't say that'. Relying on one's own memories of what was said and done can sometimes distort reality as well as one's objectives.

I think you guys are missing the brainstorming part of the POJA. Let's try it with the anti-d situation.

W: I think, and my counselor thinks that I might benefit from an anti-d. I am down, really down and it is not getting better.

H: I am very frightened that you will use those pills for another suicide attempt. (Use this time to explain love for her, fear of losing her, whatever emotions need to be expressed and heard.)

W: So, it looks like we aren't in agreement. I want to, you don't want me to. What other alternatives are there?

H: We could get a second opinion from another psychiatrist.

W: They could prescribe the medication in quantities to small to be lethal. (Most modern anti-depressants have no lethal dose. You almost cannot kill yourself on them. Older ones are more lethal and patients have successfully used them to kill themselves.)

H: Well that would mean that we have to fill the prescription 4 times a month instead of once and we would pay 4x the copayments, something we can't afford right now.

W: Wait, I think you are jumping ahead in the process. We are in the brainstorming part. We offer ideas, make no judgments, just put them down for later consideration.

H: (tension in his voice) Why are you always trying to tell me what to do? Why don't you listen to me.

W: (defending herself) No, it's you who don't listen.

AT THIS POINT, someone has to be calm enough to take suggest a break. The negotions cannot degrade into fighting. They must be pleasant for both parties.

OK, someone suggests a break and a few hours later you are back at the negotiating table.

W: OK, we had a couple of suggestions, but we didn't make any decisions and I think that we still might come up with a few more.

H: I was thinking...we could fill the prescription once per month and I could keep the bottle in my office and bring home just three or four days supply at once.

Often, when you finally hit on an idea that works there is sort of a "eureka" or "bingo" feeling to it. So, maybe you have something that works at this point, or maybe you need to refine it a bit. You might need to agree on how long or under what conditions you would loosen the restrictions, what would make H trust W again not to take the whole bottle.

You might need a combination of a couple of the ideas, including a second medical opinion. There is almost always a soltion that is mutually agreeable for both of you. If you can't negotiate then it might be time to jointly decide that you cannot stay married.

I was suicidal after learning of my H's affair and the child born of that affair. I got so bad, I checked myself into the hospital--BTW, against my H's wishes and without any POJA. At that point, if I had known of POJA and I couldn't get his enthusiatic agreement, I would have said "POJA be damned, I am saving my life here." He didn't want others knowing what he had done and that it hurt me enough to drive me to the brink of not wanting to live. No way would I have sat around doing nothing or staring at the ceiling waiting for his pride to abate enough for me to go get the help I needed. Neither one of us was thinking or acting clearly enough to make such life-changing decisions.

However, by the time I came home from the hospital 6 weeks later, I wanted him to feel safe, to not have to worry that he would come home to find me dead. I asked what he needed. He wanted to be able to monitor, but not control my medication use. He wanted the bottles to be available to him so he felt safer that I wasn't building up large stashes. Yup, I could have cheated and hidden some away from him every day, but by then we were each thinking of each other at least as much as we were thinking about ourselves.

Hope this helps,
MJ

Thanks to everyone for your help and advice! I know what it is I need to do and and how, but sometimes when I am in the thick of things I forget and it is helpful to be able to come here and have you all to help me get on track again.

I am meeting W tonight to see her IC so we can talk about DID and try to understand things more. When we are done with that, I will bring up the writing things down idea agin and see what she says. Again, I must say that she has always been for this option. I am the one who has been against it because I was always accused by her family of running our M like a business. I don't want or need that again, that is why I shy away from this.

Coffee- Thanks for you ideas about writing everything down. I will suggest that also.

JL- I think you are right about the teaching. And, like you said, I first need to master it before I can help her along. The MB Weekend should be great for us!

MJ- Regarding the anti-d's, after we calmed down and could talk again we tried to brainstorm. After her diagnosis of DID her counselor now thinks that anti-d's may not help her much. I also liked your idea of holding onto the meds, BUT that only puts me further into the parole officer role which I don't like. Still a tough isuue but it seems to have died down for the time being.

So, without playing the role of teacher or cop, how can I help W along with things like POJA and get away from independent behavior? I will work hard on the positive reinforcement, any other ideas?