Or if you just need a laugh for today . . .

I was trying to talk to H again about having his work life be something we both discuss and agree on as equals, instead of being something that he alone gets to decide on while I have no say in it at all. My reasoning behind this is that what he does there affects me just as much as it does him, and that's why I think we should discuss it freely between ourselves.

He insists that he is doing enough. He isn't going out for lunch anymore (except, of course, for when he does, like for his off-site birthday party, which he insists does NOT count because that was a business necessity.)

I said that I have no idea what he is or is not doing because he doesn't talk to me about it.

He angrily informed me that since I was NOT hearing about him going out, I should have known that that meant he was NOT going out, and it was MY fault for not putting two and two together and figuring that out.

This from a man with a ten to twelve year history of lying to me about exactly those activities.

He insists there is NO reason why he should have to discuss any of this with me. I told him how reassuring it would have been to me to hear about these things and have him discuss them with me instead of *still* keeping me in the dark about them, even if it is the other way.

He got even more furious. I was also informed that my feelings about his off-site, employee-sponsored birthday party -- my feelings that we should have POJA'd it in advance -- are "BULLSHh*T! BULLSH*T!!!"

Please don't chew me out again. I'm just posting because I have no one else to talk to about this. Maybe someone whose WS is acting like a human being will take comfort in seeing what some of them can be like, and be grateful for what they do have.

Hi p_b

Just wanted you to know I left a note for cerri in JFO to check out your thread there....she hasn't been on IM at all today so hopefully she will pick it up there.

I know you believe that other people have given up on you....but I really believe that isn't it. When folks post to you, you rarely respond to it directly, just come back with a new incident....usually just like the last incident. You're stuck chere. You've been stuck a long time. Try responding to those people who respond to you....each one of them. Answer their questions. Discuss their advice. Show that you read them, hear them and have some reaction to them. It shows that you care about them, as you would like them to care about you. It shows respect for their ideas....even if you say you don't agree with those ideas and give reasons why. Often you just ignore posters, don't answer them directly, and pretty soon....they don't respond to you anymore.

Pb, You've got to interact with folks here to get responses....venting can be part of that...but if that's all you do....you'll lose connections. I think you really need those connections.

Often I don't respond because I know I can't tell you what you want to hear. I can't go to Plan B because of my son. I don't have any other good news to report. I know you don't want to hear the same tired crap over and over. I am just listening to see if anyone else has any other ideas that I haven't tried yet.

I did post a pretty lengthy response to Cerri over on the JFO board this morning, if anyone's interested.

I read it. And I agree with Cerri. You have to do the Plan B. And basically it will result in at least one good thing. Self-respect.

Some good reasons to change are;

#1 Your son. You want to teach him a clean way of living. Not all of this hashing over and fighting for your rights with a husband. A father he is learning every little thing from. As he loves the ..guy. And your son is seeing how you are struggling, even begging for this man to appreciate your side of the story. The son is learning how to treat a wife. How a husband treats the mother of his child. How we live directly affects/teaches our children.

#2 Yourself. Is it improper to need an open and honest relationship? Is it improper to expect this "man" to respect your feelings and feel remorse for hurting you?

What you have to gain is the ability to choose what other things you can do today, rather than worry about how your husband will hurt you today. Is he any different than any other cheating man?

This sounds classic. And I do not think that the forum is tired of hearing from you or others like you. I would love to hear that you have a handle on your own situation. I think you have so many great values as you express them here.

You are not taking a hard stand on your needs and values. And when you say you are doing it for your son, well. Unless your husband has money and power to overturn the law, he is the WS. Do you have proof of his waywardness? And he is the one who would need to vacate the premises. Check your laws in your state.

And lastly, please change your name. You are calling yourself bad names, that he instigates. Take some control. You can do it. It is not wrong to defend yourself and do something for the benefit of your health and eventually maybe your old man may snap out of it.

I so know about these business situs. They are such horrid examples of a lifestyle...teamwork and all of that rot. I dont think they will get near the amount of work out of them while they carry on so. Legally, I wish that you could sue them for something like a 'displaced spouse'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do feel for you P-B.

What are some positive things going on in your life now? Can you maintain happiness without him? Can you imagine having not to worry about it anymore?

Your situation sounds minutely like Hypatia's ongoing work related difficulty...

Often I don't respond because I know I can't tell you what you want to hear.

Please don't assume that I want to hear something in particular....that means you don't respect me as someone who doesn't need validation to feel comfortable. Most of the time....and I'm sure others will agree....I just want to know you read it...otherwise...why write it? My time is precious, as yours is.....and if you don't answer, I think it's because your aren't interesting in discussing what I have to say. That's okay....I won't continue to bother you if that's the case....but it isn't because I've deserted you.

I can't go to Plan B because of my son.

Can't chere, or won't? IMO You aren't doing your son a favor by allowing his father to walk all over you....and see that your boundaries are unimportant. Without consequences....he will grow up with the same "entitlement" he sees his father exact. But I won't push you on this. He's at an age where you might discuss how he feels about this situation....please don't say he doesn't know.....most kids absorb these things. His feelings may surprise you.

I don't have any other good news to report.

On this site....who expects GOOD NEWS???? I expect the exact opposite....although I love to hear about success. I don't come here, or post to be cheered up or validated. I have suffered through the same process....with a husband strikingly like yours....and have come out the other side and am firmly in recovery. I post to you in the hope that some of that may help you.

I know you don't want to hear the same tired crap over and over.

Please let me decide whether it's worth listening to or not....crap or not. If I think it's crap....I'll say so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Why would I make the effort to post to you if I was sick of it or wasn't hoping for an answer from you? I promise you my motives are sincere.

I am just listening to see if anyone else has any other ideas that I haven't tried yet.

I saw your post to cerri on JFO. I think other people have come up with ideas, and I also think that cerri's ideas are not dissimilar to some of them. It is a rarity when she and I disagree....because we follow the same hard core Willard Harley format which so few do here. Did cerri tell you she doesn't do "nice". LOL? How cool that you caught the reference in her name.

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

*oops double*

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

I agree pb.....please please change your name. I am offended for you each time I have to use it.

Do you have a drug problem or an alcohol problem? Did you ever cheat on your spouse? What could make you feel that you could lose your own son? Has he threatened you? You said he has thrown furniture around when you press him for the truth. Did he ever hit you P-b?

When I read your name, I will substitute Peanut Butter, for your interpretation. Til you come up with a nice name for you!

I am going to go clean out the attic space now. But hope you get some positive ideas moving in you PB.

I read some of your posts.

A couple of things I have learned--maybe they will help you...

ACCEPT WHAT IS...your H doesn't see things your way and doesn't seem to care that you are unhappy. Sit with this, digest this and fully accept that that IS the state of your M. Not what you want or wish for, but what IS. There are no "tricks" anyone is hiding from you to get him to get it because...

YOU ONLY CONTROL YOURSELF...all of your talks, hysterics, calm discussions etc. have NOT made an impact. It sounds like you have been trying Plan A for a while-made changes in yourself that are needed. For me, Plan A was sooo helpful in making myself a person that was happier, more peaceful and therefore WILLING to leave the M. And I have a 2 year old D. I didnt/don't want a broken home for her, but I can't/won't let her grow up thinking this kind of treatment from your H is OK. I would doom her to that kind of life for herself.

LET GO OF ATTACHMENT TO A SPECIFIC OUTCOME...H might never change and I may not have a M. But I am doing my best which makes me a fuller, more differentiated person, deeper spiritually and definitely emotionally healthier, and proud of who I am. Whether I stay married or not does not effect my authentic self.

You sound like you are casting desperately around for a way to change things. You HAVE tried what you can. Now is the time to decide if you can keep living like this. Is the cover of a M enough to make up for the craziness you feel? Is it so important that you will risk your S absorbing this behavior and repeating it in his adult life?

I so feel for you. I think I have been just like you. I get balance and then I fall off by thinking, wishing, hoping that it could and should be different if only my H would get the picture. It may be true, but only HE can decide the path he will take. I can lead him, but I can't make him drink!

YOu are not abandoned here, but you really MUST read some of the things that others are offering. We are all in such pain but want to help each other. Each person is different, true, but some of this stuff is very common to all these situations.

I don't have much time right now, but I do appreciate all of your responses.

Guys, my problem here is not that I don't stand up to him. It's that I DO stand up to him. That's when everything went straight to hell. Believe me, life was good as long as I did not try to open the locked door labeled "His Work Life."

This man is a high-powered corporate manager with a big ego. He is used to getting his own way. He learned long ago that he could use his outgoing personality and great sense of humor to charm, persuade, manipulate, and just outright bullsh*t anybody to get anything he wants.

He is angry because I am probably, now, the only person in the world on whom this no longer works.
Nothing frustrates a bullsh*tter more than finding out the bullsh*t is no longer effective.

***Do you have a drug problem or an alcohol problem?***

??? No. I don't smoke, drink, or do any sort of drugs. Never have. Neither does he. I occasionally use Kava-Kave for anxiety. That's all.

***Did you ever cheat on your spouse?***

No. I thought it was important not to. And I just plain didn't want anybody else.

***What could make you feel that you could lose your own son?***

Well, I'm not going to ask this kid to choose between us. And I don't want to "lose him" in the sense of him choosing the wrong path.

***Has he threatened you? You said he has thrown furniture around when you press him for the truth. Did he ever hit you P-b?***

He threw some lawn furniture across the yard once when I asked him if there'd been sexual contact with these girls. He was blind furious. Did throw a heavy crystal dish past my head once, while standing behind me. Hit me? No. But he's been angry enough to.

***When I read your name, I will substitute Peanut Butter, for your interpretation. Til you come up with a nice name for you!***

Here's another way to look at my screen name: Before I decided to stand up to him and not swallow his bs anymore, my name would have to have been "Doormat." Psycho_B***h does at least fight for her family and does not take garbage from some man anymore.

Sometimes anger and outrage can be your only sources of strength. And strength is where you find it.

I have another question for you all. Maybe it needs its own thread. How does anyone get past the feeling that even if the WS *does,* finally, start doing a few of the things you asked for, you know perfectly well it's not their choice?

He did come home for lunch yesterday. Said it was because his group was having an off-site birthday party for one of them so he didn't go. Yes, he did this, and I thanked him for it and let him know it did make me feel better. But he sure wasn't happy about having to do this.

I know exactly what my husband thinks the Ideal Marriage is. It's having a wife at home and carloads of girlfriends at work. Why *force* them when it's obviously not their choice?

I will post more later. Thank you all again.

Get him on your side. Every little bit counts. But I think that you are both temper holders. So, I don't know. But, I think that if you were to tell him you can not love a man who loves his err, career more than you, you may need to leave him.

Do you think he cares about you Pb?

The other thing is all of the unclarified resentments that you both are carrying ...(why you both have a temper under pressure)

How old is your son? Usually they go with the mother. How could a father that involved in work devote enough time for his son...as he doesn't even give you much time. I do not think it would be a bad idea to talk with a lawyer and just to ask him a few very important questions.

How do you know your husband won't come home one day with one of the birthday girls as your replacement. Sorry to be so crass, but that usually seems to be what happens when the spouse is getting all of his ENs with them, not you.

Otherwise, you have something going for you now. He has no replacement for you.

I guess you have to be more than just mad and full of that angry power to determine a logical decision for yourself to make.

I don't have much time right now, but I do appreciate all of your responses.

Thanks for responding.

Guys, my problem here is not that I don't stand up to him. It's that I DO stand up to him. That's when everything went straight to hell. Believe me, life was good as long as I did not try to open the locked door labeled "His Work Life."

This is where I think we get cross threaded a bit. I know you stand up to him. You express what you need, you confront the problems etc. Unfortunately, I think that a great deal of the honesty you use, is wrapped around some love busting because you're so beaten down. But I'm not talking about confrontation.....I'm talking about setting healthy bourndaries that are enforceable.....and that's very different from complaining, explaining, teaching, nagging, crying, begging or anything else.

This man is a high-powered corporate manager with a big ego. He is used to getting his own way. He learned long ago that he could use his outgoing personality and great sense of humor to charm, persuade, manipulate, and just outright bullsh*t anybody to get anything he wants.

Just so you know where I'm coming from and why I take an interest in you....please let me tell you about my husband. He is brilliant, handsome and charming. A ladies man...and man's man too. He is in uppermanagement in a massive multi-national company that is the Fortune 100. He is the quintessential business man who is used to having his word unquestioned or challenged. The women all over the world (you think the US is bad! yikes try living in Latin America) throw themselves at his feet. They all "love" him!!!! It's nauseating. Aside from having the kind of inappropriate relationships exactly like the ones you describe....he has pushed the envelope even further...had two affairs. The company plans team building type events that exclude families and practically give blessings to marital affairs. The divorce rate in this company is close to 75%. He's required to travel alot for his job since he is the manager of North and South America. There is an element of narcissism in his personality and an "entitlement" that prevents remorse or contrition for his actions, even when they effect others. The most important thing in his world is getting what he wants....and if it hurts me....shoot...he's "sorry he hurt me."

Sound familiar??? Do I have your attention yet at all? I have three children who adore him. They are 19, 18 and 6.

Corporate America being what it is....what I'm trying to say is that your situation is not unique. Difficult? you bet...but not so out of the ordinary that no one can understand how you feel. I know exactly how you feel....I used to feel just like that. I got sick of feeling like that.

He is angry because I am probably, now, the only person in the world on whom this no longer works.
Nothing frustrates a bullsh*tter more than finding out the bullsh*t is no longer effective.

Yep....My husband struggles no doubt with the idea that I'm not an employee who has to bow down at his every command. Accountability seemed like a yoke to him. It's been very very hard to make the progress that I have, and I've cried a river of tears.

The big difference between your sitch and mine is that all the same kind of stuff was transpiring while I was being moved an average of once a year....in countries where I was unsafe and the political climates were unstable and frightening. My son is 6. He's been through 2 coup d'etats (Indonesia and Venezuela)...3 forced evacuations from foreign countries (so scary) 5 homes and 3 kindergartens. My oldest child completely rebelled and hated this life style....she completed spiralled down until she eventually attempted suicide. Life, kids, my personal health, security along with my marriage was in the toilet.

Here's another way to look at my screen name: Before I decided to stand up to him and not swallow his bs anymore, my name would have to have been "Doormat." Psycho_B***h does at least fight for her family and does not take garbage from some man anymore.

That only makes me feel worse about this awful name you've given yourself. It's self deprecating and destructive and perpetuates an image of you at is unhealthy for all concerned. I'm offended when I have to use it....I feel disrespectful to you. P_b show your willingness to change this small thing and prove that you are not so stuck in your bitterness that you won't even change something this small and fundamental to how you are percieved by the folks who care about you...your identity on this board. It is a travesty that you would let anyone's bad opinion of you seep into your self image and poison your identity on this board. You are so much more than what he thinks of you. I've seen your website and I know this is not your defining characteristic. Make this first small step.

Sometimes anger and outrage can be your only sources of strength. And strength is where you find it.

I am one of the strongest people I know and I look for my strength in my spirit, energy, joie de vivre. I am a survivor and that makes me strong....not getting stuck in the anger and outrage phase. That has a place...but it isn't a lifestyle and you have become far far to comfortable there. You've made a little nest to curl up in with it. Find personal strength that isn't defined in any way by him. You need to exorcise that resentment from your brain so you can think clearly and save your marriage.

I have another question for you all. Maybe it needs its own thread. How does anyone get past the feeling that even if the WS *does,* finally, start doing a few of the things you asked for, you know perfectly well it's not their choice?

Because he did have a choice. This was the choice: Continue this lifestyle and live alone, or Let's rebuild our marriage together which won't include activities that put our marriage at risk. My husband chose me. He didn't like giving up his high flying lifestyle with adoring females....but he liked losing me less!

He did come home for lunch yesterday. Said it was because his group was having an off-site birthday party for one of them so he didn't go. Yes, he did this, and I thanked him for it and let him know it did make me feel better. But he sure wasn't happy about having to do this.

Nope he won't always be happy about missing things....but according to my husband it's getting easier and easier to see the benefits of it and he is much happier and content with our life now. We still have a way to go....after all....he's still travelling which is dangerous to our marriage as well. We are brainstorming that issue but haven't come up with a good POJA yet...so for now....it's still a problem. Cerri gives me grief about this on a regular basis just so I won't let it get away from me. We do have a plan in place for out of town trips that we have POJA in the interim but it isn't enough.

I know exactly what my husband thinks the Ideal Marriage is. It's having a wife at home and carloads of girlfriends at work. Why *force* them when it's obviously not their choice?

So what? So you didn't marry Ward Cleaver...I didn't either. I chose mine. You chose yours. I had the opportunity to marry Ward...but frankly he was too tame and boring for me. I made this bed....so I get to lie in it. I prefer to lie in it with him because like you...I love my husband.

But P_b your husband hasn't had to make a choice. He does enough to placate you now and then to keep the status quo. The only choice he has right now is to be truthful about his actions and face your wrath and pain, or to lie about them and prevent arguments. The real lifestyle choice isn't an issue because you won't enforce that boundary or move to higher risk strategy. I can tell you....that being able to accept the possible outcome that he would simply walk away instead of choose the marriage was the hardest thing I ever did. But I simply could not live that way any longer! I was beginning to hate him. I felt sick all the time. All the time. I couldn't sleep....or eat sometimes and my unhappiness was crushing.

I feel pretty certain that nothing short of a real Plan B will probably change your H's tune. When my H realized there was a real possibility that I would leave, that was the only thing that ultimately effected change in my marriage (to same kind of egotist you married). The scariest part of that to me for you though is that there's been so much conflict and bitterness and LBs that if you did a Plan B now....he'd actually leave! And you won't do a plan A even to let him see what your marriage could be like because you're so furious that it will somehow validate his actions. You won't do an A. You won't go to a B (and probably shouldn't without doing a mini- Plan A)....so you are stuck.

If I can think of an alternative....I'll try chere. But my guess is that cerri is going to say something pretty similar. She surprises me though so I'll keep my eyes open and wait.

Keep your chin up.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Is there anyway to change my screen name without changing my user number?

I *have* done Plan A. I've done it many times. I've thought over and over again that okay, finally, *this* time I've gotten through to him and *this* time he understands. So we go back to being the happy family and having fun together and all is well. We were at Disneyland just a couple of months ago. We are fine as long as I stay out of his work life.

So what happens then?

He assumes, since everything is back to being good at home like it always was before, that he is off the hook and he can go back to "normal" at work, too. And I get the shock of my life when he goes to his own off-site birthday party and insists he sees no reason why I should be there.

The other night he found me alone in a room and crying. I told him that if he ever wanted to "fix" this, like he says he does, he could not ever do that to me again. That I spent years being shoved out of the way while he took off with his girlfriends and I had NO strength, NO tolerance, NOT ONE NERVE LEFT with which to tolerate EVER being in that situation again.

I told him I was not doing this to punish him. I was not trying to be a b*tch. I was not trying to be a drama queen. But he had to understand that he and his precious little friends burned out every last nerve I have and I cannot sit here and wonder where he is anymore than I can flap my arms and fly to the moon.

Not WON'T do this. CAN'T do this.

Two days later, he came home instead of going to another birthday party.

That's something. But I wonder if this applies to his own parties, where he gets his ego fed and stroked by others (and he's got one employee who is very young and very pretty and makes a point of putting her boobs on display) or just to other people's parties where he's not so much the center of attention.

Sorry to be so pessimistic. But I've learned by now to parse EVERYTHING and EVERY WORD because things are just never what you would think they are.

Do all of you feel that nothing will ever really change here so long as I cannot do a real Plan B?

I think you need to learn how to play cards. Although I hate cards, I did play them. And out. And it worked. Not an awful unlike Star. But I had no support and did not know about the Harley rules, concepts, and it was the frosting on our cake. We are doing excellent. I thought I had lost him to the company. I needed to know who he loved more, them or me...and that is that.

***I thought I had lost him to the company. I needed to know who he loved more, them or me...and that is that.***

That's exactly where I am, too. It's me vs. The Company (and all the girls therein.) And I don't see how just one person can compete with all of that. I've never really tried, because I think it's utterly impossible; I just tried to give him the best I had to give. But it was not enough for him.

I hate cards, too. But I put mine on the table long ago. I guess I'll never give up hoping.

The book called Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass is the one best read. Covers all of the issues, and how to protect marriage. And all the today problems facing our marriages. It talks about the things that you are experiencing and will help to humanize your feelings and perhaps he would read it. Bet he would if he sees you reading it. And it is good for anyone to read, even if there is no affair yet. Chances are, everyone will encounter some odd situation at one time or another.

P_b,

I didn't say Plan B is the only option, I said I thought it would probably take something like that to exact real change. You may want to explore how to enforce good boundaries for instance. What other consequences (besides separation) do you think you might be able to set? Setting boundaries is alot more than explaining how much it hurts and how fed up you are about it. There has to be consequences or there aren't really boundaries. Plan B is not the only way to do that. If confronting your anger, pain and anguish isn't enough to encourage him to stop this behavior....and you don't wan't to leave....what else is there? What's important to him?

There is a big difference between CAN'T and WON'T. You say you can't endure anymore of this, but day after day.....you do. I think it would be much healthier for you to stop feeling so powerless and decide that you WON'T endure it. "Can't" traps you in the role of a victim. "Won't" empowers you.

I used to tell my H....."If your actions don't destroy this marriage....I am certain that my reaction to them will." I knew that my reactions were poison to our marriage....but I wanted him to stop first because afterall it was his fault. I realized however, that it was a toxic cycle. My reactions fueled more actions by destroying the intimacy in our marriage. Someone had to be willing to get off the merry go round first. I decided that somebody was me.

Sometimes you have to have a break down to have a break through.

I do think this is my cataract theory. It has to be at it's worst point before you are going to make a change for the better. And it is the removal of that cataract when it is fully matured and you get the surgery and you can see a whole lot better.

Good luck.

***The book called Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass is the one best read. Covers all of the issues, and how to protect marriage. And all the today problems facing our marriages. It talks about the things that you are experiencing and will help to humanize your feelings and perhaps he would read it. Bet he would if he sees you reading it.***

I have this book. I went through and underlined a lot of pertinent stuff. We actually sat down and went through some of it together -- but he "doesn't agree with it," "it doesn't apply to H," and some of it is "bullsh*t." End of statement.

***I realized however, that it was a toxic cycle. My reactions fueled more actions by destroying the intimacy in our marriage. Someone had to be willing to get off the merry go round first. I decided that somebody was me.***

So what, exactly, did you do? Did somebody move out, or did you handle it another way?

Nobody moved out P_b. That doesn't mean that I wasn't fully prepared to do so....I most certainly was. I stopped my part of the cycle. I stopped reacting and took action. I made statements, defined my boundaries, and was prepared to defend them....without lBs. I used logic instead of emotion to discuss these charged issues. I was willing to take the risk of losing him since I was losing him anyway. It hardly seemed fair to me.....that I was suffering so horribly for his bad behavior when he was having such a good time. I took over reponsibility for my own happiness.....kind of an emotional Plan B so to speak to prepare me if I had to move to separation.