The issue with our son is not going away. I need to do something about it. Your suggestions would be welcomed.

My H is being honest in saying that he is not feeling like a man in the house given the lack of respect that he is receiving from our son. Son has really continued to test the limits. He has refused to comply with house rules. Nothing major but it is obnoxious for him to leave lights on, play TV loudly while we are trying to sleep, etc.

There is competition going on between son and husband. Of course, they are not even supposed to be on the same level. So you see that I have allowed things to get way out of place in the household. Son wants to assert himself as king. H is supposed to be king of the castle. Son's argument is that his father has been gone for several months and has not contacted him and therefore does not deserve the honor of head of household. Of course, that is not a decision that he is supposed to make.

I hope you get the picture. I have no family. Husband and son have placed me in the middle, wanting me to choose. Of course, H is supposed to win, supposed to be number 1. However, he is insisting that what I need to do is to "cut off my son's hand for stealing" (analogy used by Steve H.). He says that I am not treating him as "man of the house" because I have "not kicked son off of the football team". Husband says that he will "never have anything else to do with son". Again this is an extreme reaction. Son did embarass my "proud" husband in front of a neighbor friend, saying he's been gone for months.
Also, son is refusing to talk to husband.

Bottom line, I need to have some effect in bringing my son in line. I don't want to go to the extreme that my H desires. However, I do need to make a statement that H is no. 1 and man of the house. Putting son off of the team will cause him to be hated by his peers because he is a star that they depend on and will cause him to lose out on college scholarships as he is a senior being recruited. H says that he doesn't care! I don't believe that he doesn't care but that he wants to feel better about himself.

I need to go and will post more later.

Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Sorry for my bluntness...but this sounds like a conflict between your Son and your Husband.

Your Husband has put you in the middle because he can't bear to hear the words he deserves to hear (you deserted us, and you deserted me).

I think it's time they work it out.

Husband may say and do some rash things, you may suggest that no sweeping decisions are made without everyone being in agreement. Does the POJA apply to families too?

I don't know -- it seems to me that your son has valid feelings that aren't being acknowledged. Everyone wants to run over them in pursuit of their own agenda.

You wanted H back, H finally wanted to come back -- but what about him? He's a member of the family too, although a junior member, which is frustrating for kids when there is a big-time decision to make and they don't even get a say, let alone a vote.

As someone said, this is between H and S, and it seems they want to use you to avoid negotiating with each other. So they are using you.

IMVHO, I don't thing this should be decided by a priori rights -- i.e., H always trumps S. After all, how would you feel if your boss acted like a Nazi and refused restitution or compensation, saying "he was the boss."

Obviously this needs a third party, and it isn't going to be you. Shouldn't be. A good counselor -- I would think not one trying to talk about everyone's "feelings" as helping the two parties negotiate a settlement.

And if football is how son gets his self-esteem, peer approval, and takes out his aggressions -- taking that from him feels really counterproductive. Especially while family is facing its own recovery mess.

Where would he have to turn to? Drugs???

Mim,
I'd go with family counseling, pronto.
Why should son be punished with being kicked off team, his thought is probably, when does Dad get punished?

Mimi, obviously your son is very angry. And he is entitled to that anger, but must find a way to disperse it constructively.
I do not believe your son should pay the price by losing his football activity. He needs this for his self esteem as well as his scholarship.
It's time your H and he sought counseling together! And apart! A good counselor could help them both by seeing them one on one and together when appropriate.
If you follow H's advice in stripping away more of Son's life, it will only bring more harm in my opinion. After all, doesn't the whole family usually pay for the A? I am a firm believer that the one who wrecked everyones emotions, self esteem and secure feelings should be the one to suffer most of it! H created this riff between himself and son, now he can't expect to just demand respect overnight. He has to earn it back!
Yes, I understand H has to have the head of household respect, but he has not earned it yet.
He left you with your son to muddle along on your own while he dallied! Son had to deal with much of his feelings on his own also.
You see now, the A was not just between you and H. It took a great toll on the whole family.
And I think it's time your H got into some anger management as well if he's ready to just strip son of all his life interest and what has probably been a real support for son through all this. Sports allows son to expend energy in a positive way.
Of course, son has to sit with you both and be told that you are trying hard to salvage your marriage and once again be the family you were.
But son needs his own outlet for venting and counseling is the first place to start.
He's acting out his anger in the only way he knows how!
I've read enough of your post over the months to understand your H must have control. He doesn't want anyone making decisions for him. He had to be the one to decide when, where and how he would end his A. When he would and wouldn't be available for son, etc.
I think it's time your H and son sought that much needed counseling and time for your H to realize he can't just walk back in like nothing ever happened and take his rightful place on demand!
Otherwise, I see your H pushing his son away forever. What he suggest is punishment to add insult to injury!
You aren't just rebuilding a marriage, you're rebuilding a family!
Son needs to feel safe to vent, and express his feelings just like anyone else.
We had the same thing in our home when H came home on Dday. Our son is older than yours, but he was mad enough to kill!
He stated quite emphatically he held no respect anymore for father. And he also told him the lack of morals in H's family stops with him(son).
Now he talks with me that he sees father trying hard to be different. And they do have a renewed relationship. But I know son still checks and doesn't trust just off hand.
H had lied to me and son, when ask specific ? about his trips. That hurt and angered son most of all, to be lied to!
Plus serious health problems where we had not contact info for all the time H was gone. That made son feel H didn't care if one of us died. Son is diabetic and came so close to death once it still is a nightmare to think on. I had a heart attack suddenly and could have died. Then H leaves us and tells us he is going off to be by himself and wants none of us to know how to bug him? then we find out it's his little slut he's more interested in and fun than his family who might need him?
Sorry, but I have to feel more compassion for your son right now than your H.
While you need to regain control in your home, in the order it's given by God to be,(God first, spouse, then children), it isn't going to just happen.
I hope they will both agree to counseling to understand each other and rebuild their relationship again.
If you need to cut off a hand for stealing, start with H!
While your son may not have voiced it, he felt a great weight and responsibility as the man of the house left worrying over his mother!
Way too much for a young man to have to deal with.
Son embarrassed "Proud" H? Son told the truth. Should he have lied? Do neighbors not realize and know the truth already?
I'm sure they saw you moving in minus H for while.
I know many may not agree with me. But I've seen the damage My H caused to our son and family. My daughter now has cut me out of her life, and also my precious grandchildren because she feels H hurt me too much and lied too many times. She wanted us to divorce, and we chose to rebuild.
I have lost way precious treasures due to H's lies and infidelity. But I cannot force her to do as I wish. It's her decision and she has no respect or love for stepfather now.
If you think this is just between you and H, you are far from right.
Praying that time, counseling and your H setting aside some of his pride will bring about the family you once had.
God bless, LouLou

Recovery reality bites!

H did a bad thing (reality) and lost his son's respect (reality).

Your job is NOT to "fix" this .... NO WAY .... resist fixing this. This problem does not belong to you.

Tell your husband you trust that both H and S will be able to work this through without female interference. Then, insist that you must butt out.

I strongly urge the 2 of them to go to a family therapist.

You son should NOT learn that deserting the family (to go off with slutty OW) deserves respect.

Your son needs a safe place to learn how to deal with his ambiguity of feelings for his father.

Your husband is feeling consequences .... and they bite. I told you, he's not going to like looking in the mirror for a long time. This is just the beginning. Don't protect your H. He earned this.

Pep

Dear Mimi,

I'm happy for you that your H is trying towork out your marriage problems and has moved back home. However, I'm here to weigh in on the side of your son. I see no point to being the Devil's Advocate, I am in agreement with the others here.

Your H set a bad example by being unfaithful to his family. He vowed to love, honor, and cherish you, forsaking all others. This meant he would love, honor cherish, support, and be faithful to the family - your children.

Your H broke his vows, abandoned both of you, and you decided to give him another chance, to work to restore your marriage.

Consequence of abandoning his son, who is nearly an adult, is that he offended the young man's values. He's not a young child nor an appendage of you. He has NOT agreed to reconcile. While he's living under your roof he's forced to tolerate the presence of the man who, of his own free will, abandoned him and his mother, who dealt with major crises on their own, fended for themselves.

He rejects the model of manhood that your H presents. He does not respect or trust his father. He's old enough to understand the long term effects of infidelity, he's not going to be intimidated by an older adult male - physically, he's in pretty good shape himself, mentally, he's nearly ready for college, emotionally, he's devastated.

Your H hurt two of you. You want to try again with your marriage. Your S is big enough and old enough to resist bullying by your H.

It would be flat out wrong, evil, wicked, to punish your son by not allowing him to play football. He needs it like food or oxygen.

You and your H are going to have to suck it up and live with it. If you son forgives his dad, it will be an act of charity, not an entitlement.

Don't allow further abuse of this boy by his father. If your son is lucky enough to have friends whose family is willing to let him live with them so he can finish high school, you owe it to the boy to help. (I know you didn't mention such people, but I hope he does have such a friend.) And if that should happen, you owe him all the financial support he needs while he works to get a football scholarship and succeed in school.

By the way, I'm no kid. I have a 14 year old son, a high schooler. So this isn't the perspective of one of your son's peers.

Good luck, and like the others said, don't let your H put you in the middle.

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

I talked to Steve H. about this on Fri. and he recommended that I work on the negotiation which has not worked. It has not worked because right now I am the only one that seems to want them to have a R. They do not want to work on anything with each other. Both want the other one to go away and want me for themselves. This is getting clearer to me as I type.

Both refuse to go to therapy. They feel they do not need help on the issue of each other.

Both in the meantime are not being loving to me.

Well, I'm fine with each one of them when alone. However, I'm left without a family.

Of course I'm not going to take him off the football team. I've made that clear. H says he's just going to "wait it out" until son goes to college. There's nowhere for son to move. He doesn't want to leave home. His goal is to be obnoxious enough to get his F unhappy enough to leave.

PS ....

I find your H's lack of sensitivity and understanding .... and, his apparent LACK of concern for his son's hurting heart ..... ALARMING!!!!!

Your H is still in a major "taker" mode.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Pep:

Steve H. refers to my H as being a PROUD man and not a CARING man. He says that is the way my H is. I know it is alarming how he is regarding son. It is giving me second thoughts about him. I have told him that I can't believe that he really feels this way. Steve says that it is frustration over not being able to get rid of his pain. H acknowledges pain and emptiness that he is feeling right now but has no compassion for his son's feelings. He wants me to have feelings of compassion for him but he does not have feelings for anyone else.

What do you think is going on?

He had this issue with OW. He says that she also would not demand respect of him by her daughter. He insists that he has no plans of going back to her. The story behind this is that her daughter is 13. At least in my H's viewpoint, my son is leaving in less than a year. My H wants a woman all to himself. He probably should have never had children. I have failed to mention that my H is estranged from his parents. This happened just prior to the beginning of his A. My H's mother has not contacted him in about 4 to 5 years and this remains heavy on his heart. It's like he wants his children to suffer like he is suffering. OW medicated regarding this when he was able to have her undivided attention but he found that he also had to share her. The more I think of it my H really has some deep psychological issues. It's supposed to be in sickness and in health. I'm supposed to be here for him in this, right?

I'm struggling here, guys. A lot is becoming clearer to me.

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Pep,

Explain more about what you are saying. No I won't allow him to control my feelings of compassion. In fact, I did not use the adjective ALARMING but I did express my dissatisfaction over his disregard for his son's feelings. Why do I keep wanting to type MY SON?

I added more to my post previous to yours.

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

H has expressed sincere remorse about what he has done TO ME. He has been very clear about coming home TO ME.

He has said that he is SORRY. He has said that he wants to MAKE IT UP TO ME. My sons have acknowledged this, too, Pep. My H is not good about expressing his compassion or feelings in words. He TAKES ACTION , like yesterday, it was important to him to dispose of the SECRET bank account. Today he wanted to change banks because that was the bank where he HID THINGS. He can show what he cannot say. He thought he was doing a big thing by going to my sons' football games. This was not openly appreciated by my son. He helped the older son with his car claim and in getting his car fixed, stuff like that.

I really feel that he is remorseful. I can openly tell him how hurt I am about the A and he shows remorse on his face. He is not a man of words, Pep. In fact, after talking about my pain last night, he had a different response about our son today. He is not pressing the football thing. Today he is saying that he will "wait him out" but is continuing to express "pain over not feeling like a man in his house". He says it makes him feel bad enough to shoot himself if he had a gun. That sounds like real pain to me. But he refuses to go to counseling. YUK!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mimi1254:
[QB]Pep:

Steve H. refers to my H as being a PROUD
"He had this issue with OW. He says that she also would not demand respect of him by her daughter. He insists that he has no plans of going back to her. The story behind this is that her daughter is 13. At least in my H's viewpoint, my son is leaving in less than a year."

Again, I'm taking the side of the child. The OW's 13 yr old D. Of course she didn't respect him. She was disgusted and affronted that a married man abandoned his family and was shacking up with her mother.

Did he leave the OW and come home to you because of the 13 year old's disrespect and the OW's inability to curb the child's attitude?

Or did he come home because he was repentant and wanted to repair his marriage?

"The more I think of it my H really has some deep psychological issues. It's supposed to be in sickness and in health. I'm supposed to be here for him in this, right? "

So, how can I support you? Do you want support to continue working on your marriage? Is the Sickness and Health thing a rationalization because you still want to be married?

Or are you mentioning Sickness and Health because you're in a moral quandary and want to do the moral thing? (In which case, I believe that infidelity is a matter of choice and not of mental illness. And also, if he's "sick", all the more reason to protect your son from his mental illness.)

Not every marriage SHOULD be reconciled.

You're struggling - that's growth. I am too. I wrestle with the same issues.

Good questions, Bellevue. I appreciate your POV.

I'm not sure who my H is anymore.

80% of the time he is the man I thought he was. Then he turns into this other person that I cannot accept. I don't know where this other person came from. Is this part of his withdrawal from the A? Or this really him? I know no one can answer these questions for me. It is confusing.

The good thing is that in the past I would have accepted anything about him just to have him back. That's the old codependent me. Now I am clearer about who I am and what I will and will not tolerate.

It is true, though, that I have not demanded respect from my children and I have overindulged them. That, however, is no excuse for my H to have an A.

Mimi,
IMVHO There is an order in a families structure.
- The husband is head or King (with some reservations to the queens authority)
- The wife is queen and weilds considerable authority.
- The kids are princes and princesses and should be respected but not given control but just groomed for it when they grow up and have their own households.

Seems to me that while the king is away, the queen should assume the position of head of the household. I think your son is not the head in his fathers absence, but you are. (It has worked in England for centuries)

You husband may not completely agree, but try to stress the importance of you being in control, instead of children, to your husband and hope that he understands the position you find yourself in.

I would give your son permission to play football, if that is what you think is right and then inform his father that while he is away, and being the only parent in the house, that it is your call and hopefully he understands, agrees and backs your decision in order to keep the respect of the kids. After all it is important that you do not appear powerless to your son. Just my 2 cents. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />