Pepper,

How about sounding genuinely confused when he says "we" and assume he is talking about the original "us"? Have a few moments of confused conversation before the misunderstanding is resolved? That would snag things enough for us to cut it out, wouldn't it?

For example, when he invites the kids to have dinner with "us", say, "Oh, sweetie, I'd never go over to her place, but maybe we could do it here...oh, you mean you want OW to come? Oh that's out of the question..."

can I just say, "I'd rather you didn't talk about these people. I think they are evil.

Calling them evil is a judgement & on the list of LBs. It may also be the truth, but if they are evil, so is he, and that's what you want to avoid implying.

"I'd rather you didn't talk about these people" is more of a request and I think acceptable.

As far as I know "confusion" isn't an LB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and also acceptable.

Most likely, Pepper, it would be over the phone. He's avoided face-to-face for months. That's why it's funny he asked me to hold his mail for him rather than put it in a neutral place.

Oh, Pepper, what on earth would I say to him? I am so angry this morning just thinking about him, and the evil, bloodsucking people he has fallen in with. I've been imagining all sorts of curses about their genitals drying up and falling off.

H is so insensitive, with his "us" talk, so utterly without shame, remorse, or conscience. And my tongue is so caustic, I can't imagine not letting loose with a zinger or two about the addled OW he is sucking on.

Let me think, let me think, I can't imagine doing this. I really am very, very angry. Perhaps more angry than I have been in my life. I think that is what blew H away after D-Day -- he was expecting me to be weepy and I was just angry beyond words. Still am.

What on earth would we talk about?

I'm just not sure, anymore. Having survived the public humiliation and disgrace -- what can he offer me now? Loyalty? That's a laugh. Security? That's a bigger laugh. Love? I'm not sure he can ever put someone's needs on par with his own. This sounds harsh, I know...but every time he mentions "us"...ugh.

I probably still love him deep down there somewhere -- but I have no evidence of any remorse towards me or the kids. I have no evidence he has experienced remorse ever, in his life, and he has treated many people badly.

Having him come back would mean me eating more s**t, publicly.

What can he offer as compensation for all this?

Pepper, I wonder why I keep fighting for this, and wonder if fighting has just become a way of life for me now.

Thanks, Pepper! You yourself said if Mr. Pepper had behaved like this, you would ... what was it?...make him crawl back to you over broken glass with a diamond tiara in his teeth?

And that was some months ago...

AMM, I just want you to know that you are in my thoughts though I do not know what to say here....
thinking of you

xoxo
Wangi

I am so jealous! Spoiled brat that I am, Pep has never said that she loves me. You must be the favored child. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

These are my thoughts.

There are some differences in my situation and yours. I did a long PLAN A which was an essential ingredient. This opened my WS up to me after he had been closed off for months prior to D-Day. I think he almost hated that I was changing because he did not feel as justified in continuing his A. The other essential ingredients in my case were the PLAN B LETTERS. I think my letters were strict MB and included all the recommended ingredients. I happen to be a good writer and my H happens to need to see things in BLACK and WHITE. He actually continues to quote back statements that I made in those letters. I think he is still anxious about me doing PLAN B again. PLAN B and the LETTER were essential. Important points in the letter were that I loved him and that I was not giving up on my marriage despite my lack of contact. I reminded him of the changes that I had made in Plan A, caused him to recollect about our life together and gave him a sense of what a future would be like with me.

It's all part of a PROCESS as I think Mel told me one time.

In regards to terms, Steve H. focused on me KEEPING IT SIMPLE. During that transition period, when I had contact, I was supposed to repeat over and over What is your plan for getting rid of her? I did not have many specific demands other than that and the NC letter. Steve recommended that I not meet with my WS face-to-face because he would try to sell my on continued cake-eating. However, I really failed and ended up having unforgettable "love in the afternoon " office visit. Those sexual encounters did end up adding to the PLAN A memories. I had a couple of more of those, right before he left the first time and right after he left the last time. My H has maintained his attraction to me throughout all of this. Now I know that OW was drunk a lot of the time when they were together.

I've also grown in my ACCEPTANCE of my H. He has many faults as a person. I've come to realize that these faults are not new. He was like this when I married him. My problem was thinking that I could change him or that he even needed to change for me. I have made a decision to accept that this is the man that I am married to at this time. I know that I have the option of leaving the marriage but I have decided to stay. As Steve H. put it, regardless of how ugly this gets and how messy it is, FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having him come back would mean me eating more s**t, publicly </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AM, I disagree with this statement. The way I look at it for myself is that it is such a miracle we've reconciled, recovered and reached happiness.

I don't recall eating ANY s**t. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Though I did have to rather strongly talk myself out of pushing the OW (and her long, long hair...) into the intake fan of the kids' jumping castle at a Xmas party. I overcame the urge...and she was standing so dang close to the fan at her head level.

Your anger at betrayal is normal. Anger is also a stage of grief and people may vary as they go through the stages.

I don't know if your H is capable of better behavior once he's unfaithful...if you had the opportunity to see if he's capable, would you want it?

I just don't know, Lor. He'd have a tough sell job, after promising me recovery in January and falling apart again. He looked pretty good in January/February -- better than he ever looked -- just before the second betrayal.

Now it looks like she's dumping him, because she can't work with his behavior either. So this is like coming in runner-up to a frog.

But I'm jumping ahead of myself. He hasn't offered anything. He may want a D to convince OW of his everlasting love. (Cough, cough)

Pepper, my "personal recovery," such as it is, is to continue to do the things that interest me, to carry on with my rather interesting professional career and my rather interesting interests. I have a lot more time now that I'm not babysitting a man with a problem. I don't know if I like WS anymore, though I love him. Kindness and respect? Don't make me laugh.

Mimi, The problem is, this is a man with a personal problem, and an inability to turn down free sex, and a tendency to fall in love with whoever offers it. I'm getting too old for playing whoopsy with his zipper. I know the Harleys call off bets when the problem is a personal one, as his seems to be.

Oh, forgive me everyone! I just feel fed up today!

Well, I feel Just Learning would do a far better job than me in giving this advice...but let me give it a shot.

AMM...Plan B!

How's that? Send the letter, shut down contact...not even being "neighborly." Completely leave himself to himself.

You have given so many reasons not to do anything. You have argued for your own limitations, as well as his. So, let's say everything is exactly as you say...that the husband avoids conflict, that he would love the NC from you, etc. Then going to Plan B would do what? Ruin your marriage? Make him want to go find an OW to be with? What exactly would happen? Because, if you are right about him, no amount of Plan Aing, Plan Bing, or Plan Zing is going to promote conditions for him to come back. And if he is all you say he is...then you are probably better off, because that sort of man never will do the tough stuff of marriage, the tough stuff that keeps it together and loving.

But I have a sneaky suspicion that you havent given us the whole truth. That your husband may be a more rounded human being than you have led on. If that is the case, then what will a full out Plan B do? It will leave him completely alone with the OW. It will make him wonder what is going on with you. Men love a challenge, and you are his wife. No man wants to think that his wife might be moving on and moving away from him. In the meantime, Plan B will protect you completely from him (due to the NC). You will get stronger.

Ultimately, the question about the path back is key. The Plan B letter (as well as Plan A) helped provide that. Even in the fog, although they didnt understand the letter at the time, they still committed it to memory for recognition at a later date. So, Plan B allows them to live with nothing but that message and memories.

AMM...you really have no choice here when it comes to him. As my good friend JL keeps reminding (even as recently as today)...the only person you can control here is you. What he does is not really your concern. You must do what is right for you, and your marriage. If he follows, then great. If he doesnt, there was nothing you could do anyway.

Once you get past all of this pessimism, I think you might have a chance here. My wife lived away with the OM for 6-7 months. She is home now. My wife is a conflict avoider...that is why the OM was there for her...a refuge from our problems. And she still came home.

Either give your husband some credit, and give him a chance by going to Plan B and leaving him in his pain (and the pain is a pre-requisite for them seeing the path out...they MUST have emmense emotional pain to motivate them). Or, continue to believe he is a lost cause...and go to Plan D...because that is where you are headed, no matter what the truth is about him.

You cannot control him...but you can control you. Take charge of this mess.

You have more power over this situation than you know.

In His arms.

Thanks, Mortarman. Let me think. Coming back from an evening out. H was there with OW. We were "in vicinity" without OW. Clinked glasses. That was all. I really get the feeling he's not happy.

Mortarman, I may have given you the idea that there is more contact than there is. There's hardly any at all. This is pretty much Plan B, with no Plan B letter.

I did get an email from him today, about a household matter, in reply to my own yesterday. A little unusual to get a reply this fast.

This is a man who thinks any expression of emotion is "extreme." Hence, I didn't send Plan B letter -- also, didn't want to give up freedom to contact, however infrequently. I don't want to put myself in a box. But contact is probably more infrequent and cooler than many Plan B couples who have children.

I hope, I hope, I hope you are right and I am selling him short. I would really LOVE to be selling him short. I would love to see some initiative from him.

He can file for D anytime he wants. I won't help him, that's all. He's been unilateral all the way along with this M, he can be unilateral on this, too. He can "do" the D without me.

I'm tired, it's been a long day. Let me think.

Y'all will write again, in the a.m., yes?

Again, Mortarman, he really is dependent on the ow. (Is the acronym significant -- ow!) He's getting zero ENs from me to date.

I do have inside information that the A is on the skids (see early posts). Was difficult from the beginning. I don't know, if this is so, why she continues to appear with him publicly -- but I understand she's about to split. May or may not be true.

He really does look unhappy -- or is it my imagination. Could be. Do I care? Maybe D is best.

If I send a Plan B letter -- I am also committing myself. I don't know how much I care anymore, after being beaten up like this. I no longer feel physically attracted to this man, though I love his family and I love his kids.

Oh well, it's late. Let me think. I really hope you're right, Mortarman, I really do hope I have been selling him short. Did you see the five mandatory conditions on P. 1 of this? That's what I would put in a letter. But I couldn't promise no contact. I could only explain why I will initiate no more contact than we already have. Which really is minimal.

My Mantra is Listen to Mortarman!!!

Also, Steve H. recommends a PLAN B LETTER and KEEP IT SIMPLE on the conditions.

Consider following the MB Principles to a T. Be a good student as Steve H. recommends. The principles really work even if they don't feel right or don't seem to fit your situation-like your WH thinking the PLAN B letter would be extreme. I would recommend that you disregard what he may think about it.

I also was encouraging you not to be pessimistic. It's almost like religion. I think part of the solution is becoming a believer in this stuff. Try to have faith and hope. I hear that a part of you wants to work on your marriage but you are afraid. Your fear is understandable. I live with that fear every minute of every day. However, I try to ignore it and to go on, knowing that the fear will hold me back from doing what I need to do.

Hope this helps. Hang in there!!

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>