Why can you not go to NC? Think about this question AMM. Why? Because I believe your marriage depends on the answer to this question.

What are you afraid of? Of losing him? He is already gone right now.

Are you missing him and dont want to box yourself in where you cant get your "fix" of him? Well, that will just continue this mess, AMM.

If what you are saying about your WH and the OW are true, then they have pretty much followed the usual path of affairs. It is burning out. The problem is that it is burning out, and your WH has nowhere to go. No path, no light out of the fog. He doesnt know how.

Steve Harley told me last week, when we were talking about my wife still having some effects of the fog, that he didnt want to call my wife an idiot, but she really has no clue. And neither does your husband. They lost all sense of reality. But reality is starting to come back. And they cannot make any sense of it. It is as if the real world is now the fantasy world that we couldnt understand. He looks at the real world and it doesnt make sense. How painful...how confusing and disorienting. So, he holds onto what he has, and works harder at it.

If left to his own devices now, he will not return. He will end things with OW (actually, she will most likely end them with him). But he wont come home. Why? Because he doesnt know how.

That is why a Plan B letter is so important. Your husband may get angry at it at first. My wife did. but guess what? She'll tell you today that it was that, and the memories of Plan A, that allowed her to believe there might be a way home.

Are you a Christian? Remember the Prodigal Son? While he was off, he ran out of money and finally was eating pig slop. He decided to go home. But he sat there wondering "how" he could do that, how he could go home after everything he had done. He eventually came up with a plan, one where he would become his father's servant. But what he didnt know was that his father had a different plan...one of reconciliation. So you see, in these types of cases, they must have a plan...but first off, they must have a clue about what is possible. And that is spelled out in the Plan B letter.

So, maybe you send it. But like you said, you wont put in the fact that you will have NC with him until OW is gone. AMM, the NC is what makes Plan B work. They are told what is possible, that you still love him, that you are willing to seek reconciliation under the 5 terms you provided on page 1 here. But, you are unable to maintain anymore contact with him as long as he is in contact with the OW.

Now, what does the NC actually do? You already said you have minimal contact. But remember, he is the one doing that. What if it was you that was going to NC, especially with the end of the A so near? What if he had a letter stating how he could extricate himself from his mess? What if he had the letter, but no longer had you to talk to during this?

What he would have is a crisis! You will have provided him hope thru the letter. But the crisis comes from the fact that the A is ending AND the fact that he doesnt have you to be there for him, to help ease him down. You see, it requires immense pain for a WS to want to come out of the fog. That emotional pain must happen. And you talking to him, or being there for him before the OW is gone only lessens his pain, and lengthens the time he will have it. And you as well.

Plan B also is about you...most importantly about you. If the A is ending, it will be a rollercoaster ride that YOU DO NOT WANT TO RIDE! He doesnt need a companion right now...he needs to be alone with himself, for the first time thru all of this...in order for him to decide what he is going to do. and you need to let him.

Maybe he never comes back. that is a possibility. But every BS that comes on here thinks their WH or WW is different, that they are so sure they will never come back, blah, blah, blah. I did! But a funny thing happened when I finally went to a full out Plan B...all the things I was so sure of, didnt happen. My wife showed up on my door. And the rest is history.

So, please do not make the mistake of dragging this on farther than need be. Your husband needs you right now. He needs you to use your head, because he has no ability right now to use his. Like I said above, you have more power than you know over this situation. And that power is best exercised thru a good Plan B and NC.

Think about it AMM.

In His arms.

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

I agree with MM. A Plan B letter is ESSENTIAL.

It was the turning point in our recovery. The letter that spelled out what I was not willing to put up with. It showed my FWH that I was at the point of throwing it all away and what he had to do to bring it back.

Right now he beleives he could come back...you've not given him any inclination that he wouldn't be welcome back. A Plan B letter does that...it says, you can come back if...

I understand you're not certain you want him back...he should know this. He feels he has left bread crumbs to come home with...he needs to know the birds are eating his crumbs. Will this alter his decision making? Darn-tootin it will, maybe not immediately, but it sure will.

AMM,

Mortarman is exactly right about Plan B. You don't know if it will or will not work, but you do know that your Plan A has *NOT* worked.

He can go on forever like this as long as he knows he has you to fall back if his affair doens't pan out. Don't let the little scraps of nothing you are getting in Plan A, prevent you from taking much needed steps to save your marriage.

I think there's a certain sense in what you all are saying. However, I really do want to correct a mis-impression. I don't get any "fix" from my minimal contact with H, Mortarman -- it really is too businesslike and minimal. And I don't think he thinks he has me to fall back on. I've given him no indication that he would be welcome here. As I say, I'm not sure he is.

This is one reservation: I wonder if H and I are not headed towards friendship. We've been friends for 25 years -- almost two decades before we were married. While I question now, after all this lies and betrayal stuff, whether he's even friendship material, it will be awkward living in this community without even a superficial friendship. It's hard to see how we make the transition to friendship (we may already be doing that) with NC.

Second reservation: My understanding of a PBL is that it's basically a love letter. I'm not sure I'm prepared to write one of those now. The birds did eat a lot of the crumbs. (I love your analysis of Prodigal Son, MM!)

Third reservation: Although stepkids are in college, I do intend to continue, as much as they will let me, being a stepmom. This new situation (their being in college) does reduce the necessary communication, but not all of it, I suppose. If we move to D, of course there will need to be some communication, won't there? I just don't see him pulling it together to file right now (though I could be surprised), and I won't.

Fourth reservation: I just don't know what I want anymore.

But I take your point seriously that he's confused and needs direction. Frankly, so do I...

He told a friend recently that he's at a point in his life where he has no idea what's going to happen. The friend thought this sounded very exciting. I thought it was kind of strange for a man who had just started a new relationship -- doesn't he want to settle down with her?

I think there's a certain sense in what you all are saying. However, I really do want to correct a mis-impression. I don't get any "fix" from my minimal contact with H, Mortarman -- it really is too businesslike and minimal. And I don't think he thinks he has me to fall back on. I've given him no indication that he would be welcome here. As I say, I'm not sure he is.

This is one reservation: I wonder if H and I are not headed towards friendship. We've been friends for 25 years -- almost two decades before we were married. While I question now, after all this lies and betrayal stuff, whether he's even friendship material, it will be awkward living in this community without even a superficial friendship. It's hard to see how we make the transition to friendship (we may already be doing that) with NC.

Second reservation: My understanding of a PBL is that it's basically a love letter. I'm not sure I'm prepared to write one of those now. The birds did eat a lot of the crumbs. (I love your analysis of Prodigal Son, MM!)

Third reservation: Although stepkids are in college, I do intend to continue, as much as they will let me, being a stepmom. This new situation (their being in college) does reduce the necessary communication, but not all of it, I suppose. If we move to D, of course there will need to be some communication, won't there? I just don't see him pulling it together to file right now (though I could be surprised), and I won't.

Fourth reservation: I just don't know what I want anymore.

But I take your point seriously that he's confused and needs direction. Frankly, so do I...

He told a friend recently that he's at a point in his life where he has no idea what's going to happen. The friend thought this sounded very exciting. I thought it was kind of strange for a man who had just started a new relationship -- doesn't he want to settle down with her?

Also, because we live in a small community with H in alpha-male status, a classic NC is virtually impossible. We have to have some minimal interaction, much as I have not wanted it at various points. Last night at dinner, someone broke into a long spiel about how wonderful my H was -- so that's part of my reality.

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

AMM:

My 2 cents worth is that it sounds like you do need to get clearer about whether or not you want your marriage back or not. I did and was able to make my PBL into a love letter.

Also my friendship with my H is one of the most important parts of our R. It is one of the things that I missed the most. I think our friendship is a key that keeps us going.

My WH told me that he did not make a commitment to the OW and never planned to make a commitment to her. He was taking it day by day, having fun with her. Part of what ended it was her demands for commitment. That's when the reality began to set in. In the fantasy world of the A, there is no commitment. It's all about keeping the high going, getting the fix. It's an addiction!

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

AM,
I get the feeling you think the Plan B letter is pointless in your situation, because "little" contact is already in place. And you don't want to initiate the contact. But, you also called it "gridlock".

I've probably told you I did a long Plan A, 18 months, including during separations, I was the one to call, to email, to drop in at his work, so I don't quite comprehend why the initiative seems so "gridlock" to you. I had no idea if my H would come home. After the second separation, I had no idea whether or not if he came home he'd stay home. But I wanted my marriage, I was sure of it and willing to do whatever seemed like would lead to the outcome of re-establishing my marriage.

You are not sure you want it anymore, and that makes it difficult for you to set a plan of action for your optimal outcome.

If you solely want the possibilities of being friends & co-parents rather than being married...that's ok...you can do that.

For some of us, Plan A was a powerful ingredient in reconciliation, for some Plan B. Plan B has the added attraction of keeping you out of the path of your spouse's destructive, lovebank draining behavior.

I had a long Plan A, failed at B, went ahead & served D papers because, after 2 years, I was through waiting on my H to do it as he kept saying he was going to. And we reconciled 3-4 months after that.

But I do think, in order to work toward marital reconciliation, you have to want to reconcile, you have to be willing to shoulder 100% effort--because at some point for recovery to commence, both of you have to put forth 100%, and you also have to love, appreciate & meet the needs of your spouse.

And, with all of that, you can only do what you can do, you can't control your spouse's part at all.

You don't at this point know if reconciliation is on the table, but part of your actions now are to decide how you would act if it was on the table, and then suit your actions to that decision.

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

AMM:

I also live in a small town. My H had lots of status, politically and business-wise. In fact, somehow a lot of people know where we live now, people that are not even my good friends have complimented me or him on our "beautiful new house" and have said how glad they are that we are "back together". It hasn't even been two weeks. We joke and say that we are like J. Lo and Ben.

Anyways, during my PLAN B, I would strategize to avoid my WS. It wasn't too hard for me, though, because he was isolating himself at that time.

My goal, as Mortarman would tell me, was to STAY DARK. I would go different routes than I thought he would drive, changed banks, went to the gym at a different time etc. He even tried to catch me at the gym by going at our usual time. I really didn't want to see him because when I did it would start me to longing for him again and I would have to start withdrawal all over again.

Well, Mimi, in this case it really is impossible to avoid all seeing each other publicly. My house is on the main drag, too -- he has to drive past it to go anywhere. I could work harder at it and reduce it -- but that's about all. I would pretty much have to cut off MY social life.

Geez, this is all confusing me so much ... I just see no real evidence that he wants his marriage back. He's so very hard to read, and I got so tired of throwing myself at him. The phone call the other day from him could easily be a huge hint. It would be like him. On the other hand, it could be nothing. It's hard to think about throwing conditions at him when he left saying he was tired of making efforts for the marriage. It's hard to list conditions for him when he doesn't show any emotion for me at all.

For all I know, he's bracing himself to talk about divorce. I'm not sure how much I would care -- but if so, how inappropriate a PBL would be!

bump! Orchid had some different thoughts...

P.S. One thought occurred while talking to a friend: a PBL letter could establish why I refuse to initiate MORE contact -- lunch, coffee, dinner, or even longer conversations (we've had maybe two 10-minute phone calls in six months, and that's about it). Somehow I get the feeling he might want me to take this the next step -- invite him, etc., make it easier for him. A pretext for a PBL might be that I won't do that till the A goes bang. It will stay pleasant, minimal and businesslike till then. Complete NC is just not possible, believe me, and I won't be setting myself up to break my own word. I don't want to say something I'm not going to do -- I'll leave that to him!

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Hi AM,

You are acting as if you are in Plan B without the letter. I wrote many a plan B type letter. I found one of them today while going through the OW 'folder'. I read that letter and felt the pain. Funny thing, the date of that letter was Jan 15, 2001. D/d was Nov 2000. See I was writing plan B info before I knew what it really was.

Now when I actually went to plan B, he was told on the phone backed up in an e-mail and then reminded when he would try to engage me into other conversations. It was hard. Now he was pursuing me. I am not sure if he remembers it that way but I do. I also was not good at plan B like some others here but I had a lot on my plate. In-laws still made me their focal point and I had to wean myself away from those unwanted responsibilities.

IMHO, the more you keep him wondering where you are, what you are up to, the less info you give him, the more he may want to know.

You say you feel he doesn't particularly care to see how you are doing. Maybe so or maybe not. Funny thing about the A. The WS often gets bored with the OW and then keeps looking for their spouse to fill their needs. Of course they are smart enough to know they can't ask for it right out so their techinque is to try and get the BS to feel guilty.

Phrases like:

1. "don't you love me?"
2. "Can you make my favorite meal?"
3. "Would you like me to rub your back?"
4. "I found some $$ for you. Why are you happy I am giving you this $$? U know I can spend it on the OP instead but I choose to give it to you."
5. "Did you see....did you see what I did in the yard? Just like what you said you wanted."
6. "I threw out the trash."
7. "I, I, I, ......"

When these types of phrases are thrown our way, is it time to jump for joy? No. A small smile and thanks is safer. Then watch to see what the WS does next. Remember most WS' are looking for a EN high. The A isn't cutting it anymore. Lost its fizz in the fog.

I think you ought to put on some shades and 'go dark.' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

AMM:

The point of PLAN B is for him to begin to feel a need for you like he is not doing now. That's why we are recommending PLAN B. You want to put the OW in the situation of having to meet ALL of his needs. She will ultimately fail. Before I did PLAN B, I felt the same way about my H that you are feeling now. I thought he did not want to reconcile so I made a decision to figure out how go on with my life without him. Once he believed I was serious about that and was not sitting around waiting for him, he began to want me. I sold my house and bought a new one. It freaked him out.

It might be helpful for you to read the Harley info. about PLAN B again. I'm such a good student. What helped me was really studying this stuff and following it to a T.

If you decide to do it, go AS DARK as possible given your limitations.

What are your real fears about this AMM?

Sometimes you sound as if you are completely finished with him and in the last post you sound as if you want to reconcile. I'm thinking that you want some type of guarantee about how exactly things will be. I used to engage in that type of thinking. I've realized that life is not that controllable or predictable. I can only make choices for MYSELF and do the best that
I can. I chose to work on reconciling my marriage. It was my H's choice to stay with her or to come back.

Well, I feel like I HAVE been dark, but I suppose I can go darker. I think none of you realize how little, and how cool, communication has been for six months.

Mimi, I guess I'm one of those people who wants to feel like I gave it my best shot. But perhaps nobody is meant to take it this far, he has been pretty awful. It would be like getting your car back after thieves have put 100,000 miles on it, smashed the front, and run the engine down. Really don't know what I "want" from all of this, except for it not to have happened, which is nonsensical. Other days I feel other ways.

Orchid, you sound like you've more or less changed your mind from yesterday. Are you saying I should send a letter now? I kind of half-drafted one, as you know. I know it's supposed to be a love letter, but right now I'm not in a love letter mood -- it's lacking a little oomph, to say the least.

Orchid, he never said any of that stuff, except maybe #4. But I think throwing money at me was his way of relieving his own guilt, so perhaps that doesn't count.

Must go now -- be back in the p.m.

P.S. to Mimi -- Again, I'm really not providing any of his needs. OW is doing it all. From appearances, she's doing a pretty crummy job. But H is still hanging on to her, probably justifying to himself that she's not as bad as all that. He has a clingy side, too, which tends to come to the fore in these circumstances. Certainly was clingy when I threw him out, finally.

AM,

I still feel you 'should not' send the letter .......yet. Write it up. Let it be a venting tool, you can always revise it later but the timing and your current emtional status where he is concerned doesn't IMHO, sound ready for a plan B letter. IMHO, going dark is safer for you. He knows where you live and how to contact you. He probably has been keeping distant tabs on you and doesn't want you to know. So if we are blowing his cover..... oh well.

U though, keep flashing that cute smile. Enjoy your friends and family. Make them your priority (which I know you already have). Take care of yourself.

I think him seeing the growing difference between you and the OW takes time. He did not step up in life, he went 5 floors down without an elevator.

He is still pretending he doesn't have any damage from his decision.

L.

Well I will throw 2 cents in here , even though your hangin with the pros. WE have chatted once or twice before and seemed to be on the same page with our thoughts.

Any way , JMVHO , I know that Plan B is very sucsessful (Selling sucks)

But I am one of those why does it have to be by the book . ?

I would not send letter , he sounds like the type who wouldn't pay mind to it (my H HATES letters)

I think I get the fact you have been PLAN B , with out letter ,Now why not just do PLAN give up in a sense . Go after the freindship , YOUR not sure if you tottaly want the M , Your still questioning yourself.

Do you want something ? start there .

You love him , at this point instead of a letter what about a 15 min convo .

Simple and to the point .

You know we been through alot and its been awhile since we really talked , so I figured I would take the bull by the horns and let you know some things .
I hope your happy , cause we are freinds for a long time and I would want that for you no matter what our differences are . I would like for us to continue to stay friends not just for the children but for the life we once shared . Well thats all I just don't want any thing left unsaid between us . I hope you know you can always come to me to talk I will not turn you away .

Just a thought , it may give him the impresion that you have come to terms with his being gone and it may make him wonder where YOU will go from there .

But also theres the door you are leaving for his path to you again . Possiably a Starting from scrach , witch is what it should be anyway .

Just my thoughts , sorry if not at all helpful .

some times no game is the best game .

Orchid, what do you mean by "blowing his cover"? Keeping tabs from a distance would be his style, exactly.

3isacrowd, Can't imagine having a convo like that with H. He doesn't have friends. He has tons of acquaintances. The "just friends," thing, now that I think about it, is probably a fantasy. And one thing Redhat told me that resonated -- don't say things you don't mean. I've stuck by that advice, so far. I don't want him to be happy with OW, I think she's an evil witch who is already proving to be his downfall. And anyone who wants my opinion on the subject can just ask for it. If there's anything we can do to be a "beacon," as one MBer put it, it's "Tell the truth and shame the devil."

I'm still uncertain about all this. If things get rockier with OW, a sweep-him-off-his-feet love letter might be just the ticket. Problem is, I just don't have the oomph for it anymore. Also, don't know how I'll find out about the status of the A, to make the timing appropriate. And I would also have to write one that has sufficient dignity that, if he shows it to OW, she is cowed.

Hard to know how to read H. With him, subtle, tiny things may mean an awful lot -- they may be huge hints. On the other hand, they could be nothing. And there's been nothing that's unequivocal. I suspect that, in his remote inaccessible heart, he will not do anything that might make him vulnerable to rejection.

A.M.Martin,

You know that A will end ! ... look at JLo (WS) & Ben (OM), they are officially broken up and called off the M. They try to beat the odd. Reading from your posts, A is dying ... now plan A actually suppose to make it safe for your WH to come home, however this is not a text book case. You have to do something ... you can't stay put since your LB$ is decreasing by day. I would really snoop or talk to freind of his that would know the state of A. If you really want your M back you should hang in there and talk R to him for the last time (watch out for LB) and get plan B letter ready. If you don't you still owe yourself plan B letter then go pitch dark for sometime then decide if you want to Dv.

In any case you should watch your D's feeling out since they are behind you all the way ...

-rh-

Thanks, Redhat! Good to hear from you. H has no friends, and doesn't let down his guard with anyone. So he won't talk. OW doesn't have friends, either, except her daughter. However, I have it on very good authority that OW has been unhappy from the beginning, and wants out.

However, she is a marginal person suddenly getting some limited recognition, and this R may be a big draw for her. If so, and if H is clinging, this could drag out for some time.

RH, if I talked R with H, I'm almost certain he would back off very fast. He's never been very good with that sort of thing. A real love letter, if the timing is right, he might lap up like a kitten with a bowl of milk.

Might be good to combine PBL with love letter, if the timing were right. My timing, too, because I'm kind of fed up right now.

But I feel very uncertain. I have received no overt encouragement from him at all.

Come to think of it, I really think he's got no feelings for me at all. There are zero indications he even thinks about me, or remembers he's not married.