You have to be willing to fill that bucket back up... one eye-dropperful at a time.
You don't just get to go the "love fountain" that you think you have with OW and fill the bucket up to overflowing.
That fountain may be pretty and enticing, but it contains tainted water, my friend.

nice analogy... tainted or no... one bucket is full... one is not. the rest is semantics. I know that no contact will leave both buckets empty... in time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the above reminded me so much of my WH, He too feels if he gives up the full bucket for the empty bucket he will end up with two empty buckets. He can't remember the good times and thus cannot believe the future could be good when he has no feelings for me. He is as I call it sitting on both sides of the fence. We have a friend who has had multiple affairs and filed for divorce, was walking out the door and then decided to commit to making her marriage work, she felt no love for her dh and now they have an amazing marriage she has walked in my WH shoes and he listens to her and her dh has walked in mine they are always on target with their advice. This is what she had to say on the subject empty/full bucket.

"Sorry, I am finding it hard to say "stand by your man", when he is not acting like your man. I tried to tell him, there is a time when you just have to jump in with all of your heart even when you don't feel it and hope and trust that the love will come. It sounds like he is afraid to do that. And it is especially hard to do that if you have no faith in God to speak of. So, I am asking him to have faith in doing the right thing, but he has probably never had the prospective of the other side of that and seeing the blessings that come when we do the right things. I just know it from this side. That is why I can honestly say, "I have no regrets", when he asked me."
I hope this helps.

LIR & TMD,

LIR, gotta agree with you. For us, d/d was Nov 2000. It is now Sept 2003, H has been home in body since April 2001 but his recovery if we can safely call it that is still in the probationary stage.

R U getting this TMD? My H ran a similar pattern than LIR's H but I think the time line was farther. Get this, my H is now a reformed XWS to the point that when speaking to several other BS' last night, I had to tone him down a bit. He can see their WS' acting like jerks. Then again he was one himself so he can recognize it earlier. U know if I thought it would help, I'd volunteer my H to talk with you. Not sure about that but have you read Trueheart's letter to the WS? That letter was written by Trueheart to my WS and others like him. At that time, my WS could not comprehend most of letter, he could read it and knew the words but not get the message. Ya know what I mean?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

LIR, I can see where you are reaching out to TMD and sure hopes he can get better with your efforts. Not all personalities can deal with agressive attitudes as such yet that is what most of the BS face when dealing with the A. Illogical justification, suppositions presented as facts, false charges/accusations with sentences passed by judge and jury (WS and OP), me 1st, etc. all put the BS at an unfair advantage.

Yet we are all here to help each other. TMD can see it. My H said he knew it but there was a difference between knowing and making proper application.

IMHO, that is where TMD is stuck. Where most WS' are stuck and where most BS' make the mistake of getting stuck. The BS must learn that the best way to help the WS sometimes is not to help....as much.

Patience is a virtue around here.

L.

TMD ~

Gonna smack ya around a bit. And dont expect me to apologize for it either. I wouldn't take the time and effort to respond if I didn't think it could help you. Unfortunately warm fuzzies never helped anyone grow.

Growth is painful. I know from experience!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my present state, anyone dealing 10 times my struggle would be dead... I know that for fact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? A fact, huh? You know factually what your wife can handle emotionally?

I was wondering what it would take to break through your fog to see your wife's agony. Now I don't have to wonder. She'd have to attempt (or God forbid succeed) suicide before you'd acknowledge, much less understand what she's feeling?

You know, I've always thought that if I had to deal with the death of one of my children, that I'd kill myself, unable to bear that agony. But really, I have no idea how I would bear it, because I have not been in the situation. And yet - I know many people, including my parents who lost not 1 but 3 children, who've survived it without killing themselves.

So don't dismiss your wife's feelings quite so cavalierly!

Your responses to everyone on this thread are consistantly dismissive of your wife's emotions and needs, and are immediately refocused back on YOU and YOUR emotions.

Do you see how selfish that is?

Do you think that perhaps your selfishness MIGHT have contributed to the environment of your marriage...the very environment that you use to justify betraying your wife?

While it is common for both marriage partners to need anti-depressants in coping with the aftermath of the affair, I have never read anywhere that the WS has to deal with post-traumatic stress disorder. Depression, yes. PSTD no. But I frequently read that in the list of affects of the affair on the BS.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you about who is hurting worse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get it though... The betrayal... the feelings of loss... the terror of the unknown with potentially no support... the wasted investment in so many years for seemingly nothing... a life that went from I'm going to grow old with this man to... How am I going to do this on my own... I could go on... and on... and on... But I get it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your post has made it clear. You are choosing to continue to betray your wife, with a clear understanding of the harm it does to your wife and your son.

You are choosing to please yourself at the expense of your wife - although maybe the fact that you are harming YOURSELF with your choices might cause you to reconsider?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you, in her shoes, make yourself vulnerable to more devastation and betrayal, considering your unwillingness to truely make the choice to put the enourmous effort into her that you are still choosing to put into the OW instead?

Nope. I would have let her go on D-Day... If that was what she wanted.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let her go? You don't have that kind of power; neither of you do. At any point, either of you has the power to walk out, and the other one can not hinder it. (I've pointed this out for a reason I'll get to in a minute.)

You've chosen to stay, but you've also chosen to continue to betray her. And somehow make her out to be the bad guy!

Did you tell your wife that you talked to the OW for 7 hours? Where was your wife during those 7 hours? Where was your son? Do you continue to withold information that keeps her from the facts that she needs to make choices?

Why would you devote 7 hours of your time and energy on something that harms your family members and harms you and harms your relationships?

Dr. Harley says that a MINIMUM of 15 hours has to be spent alone between spouses per week - in order for the feelings to return. Have you spent that with your wife?

YOUR choices are why your feelings are not returning for your wife.

Which gets me to the point that I alluded to earlier.

Let's talk about your beliefs about love.

Is love a feeling? Or is love an action?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've already demonstrated and vocalized and written that she is second choice... That went down months ago when I told her about all this... just a bit before I came onto MB... That's a tough one to reverse. I've already told her about 'the fog'... she retorts... "you wrote it to me in that letter..." "...Would you like me to get it for you so you can read it?..." I was pretty thorough in that particular excavation early on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh dear. I'm outraged for your wife.

Really.

I can't imagine what I'd do if my husband explained to me that he had to keep betraying me because he was in the fog.

Only a truely fogged WS could turn around and use the fog as justification.

But anyway, your wife's responses are becoming more and more understandable the more you respond to all of us.

Of course she flings it back in your face. There is no way you are going to be able to get her to believe or trust anything you say without enourmous effort - consistent repeated actions to prove the words. Its going to mean being accountable for every single second of your day, and its going to mean taking responsiblity for your own CHOICES about contact with the OW. (No more "Poor me, she called me, and somehow we talked for 7 hours.")

I'm 2 years into recovery with my husband. I STILL need to hear from him that I am his first choice, best choice, and that his OW was the biggest mistake of his life.

Now, let me assure you....he didn't feel that way when he first moved home. I also didn't expect him to express those things.

What I did expect was to see actions that demonstrated that I was his choice and that he did indeed want to repair our marriage.

What I did expect was to see him put our family first. And that meant many things, including quality time with our children - quality time that had been taken from them - because he had given it to the OW. His quality time with our children was his amends to them for betraying them.

My husband and I didn't feel love towards each other when we chose to recover instead of divorce (we reconciled the night before divorce court). We were both empty love banks when we chose to love each other again.

First we made a decision. Then we both followed through, regardless of whether or not we felt like it.

Honesty, accountability, consistency and time together doing what we should have been doing for each other all along before the affair happened was what brought our love banks back to full for each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So fighting for her comes across as a bit hollow and frankly unbelievable... even during the time that there was no contact and I fully believed there would be no contact. It was still difficult to make ME believe me... let alone her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you damn yourself further in her eyes every time she challenges you, and you shrink away. She's looking for a man to stand up to her and say: I made a mistake. I was wrong. I won't do it again, here's what I am going to do to prove it. I am choosing you. I am choosing us. I am choosing my marriage vows and my son. Yes, I was a stupid jerk in saying you were my second choice.

She won't believe it the first time. Or the second. You'll have to repeat it over and over while backing up your actions.

But right now, you are sitting at home sulking because you can't have the OW. And she knows it.

Of course she told you to find someone else to make you feel better. She sure isn't going to be able to - you already told her that she couldn't!

And really, expecting your wife to comfort you and your loss of the OW is a bit much...don't you think? (Yes, I know, you didn't say that, but that is in effect what you've expressed.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with all you've said... It just isn't so cut and dried for me emotionally.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To cut you some slack...I realize this. It wasn't for me either - I've had alot more emotional time and distance - and I can see it alot more clearly - because it IS that cut and dried, whether or not you can see right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's given you the roadmap back to her heart - does she have to hit you with it between the eyes?

Ummnnn... apparently so... I Fail to see a roadmap or anything remotely so salient as an invitation of that dimension. Must be that damned fog.... sorry... I'm tired... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am truely not saying this with a sarcastic tone, tho I'm afraid its going to sound like it in black and white type: Do you really think that using the 'fog' justification will work on us?

The fog does exist, and you are clearly in it. But it is NEVER an excuse. So stop using it!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For part two... My intentions during the worst of this mess couldn't have been more opposite from what you described of your support issues. And if the worst happens anyway.... and we split... an army cot suits me fine... my spoils go to my son and his mother first... which would... in truth.. be the very least I could do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah my husband said the same thing. His OW had other ideas. His intentions...and the reality were 2 different things. And that is the case for you also. Reality is that 2 households cost more than one. And that means that everyone loses out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you get it? Knowing that you will never ever put your son at risk by betraying his mother is a VERY BIG DEAL. When your wife says "Put our son first", I suspect it means more than "Spend quality time with our son."

It means taking steps to make sure that the integrity and security of your son's home life is NEVER put at risk again, by your selfishness.

So is that why she handed me a list of places to take my son and spend quality time with him? I'm not sure she has your depth of thought in that regard. But I'll give you the benefit of experience in knowing her thought better than I.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all - there you go again, judging your wife. How could you POSSIBLY know about her depth of thought? Your lack of respect is simply absolutely galling.

As I stated earlier....your time with OW was time not spent with son. Your wife gave you a list of concrete things you could do on a daily basis to start to repair that. It's called making amends.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The ball is in your court.

presently out of bounds and there's no ref to blow the whistle and restart the clock. I don't mean to be flippant. I'm working on this inside of ME right now... I AM moving some... I can feel it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listen, I know I'm really being hard on you. It's truely not a flame with the intention of hurting you. It's with the hope that it helps clear out some fog - but don't worry, I'm not holding my breath! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But - stop making excuses. Start taking responsiblity for your behavior. What you just wrote above is how you are rationalizing your choice to stay stuck.

Out of bounds? Need a ref? Call Steve Harley instead of crying about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I tried to push the envelope and look where that got me. Right back here. I tend to opt for the Terminator aproach. I'd rather slow down and deal with me and not force a fake emotional break from the OW. I'm a veritable magazine rack as you know... I have issues. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS. No, I didn't mean Betrayed Spouse. Yes you need to deal with you. But holy cow, "not force a fake emotional break from OW?!"

You can't deal with you while OW is in the picture. So don't give me that. If you are going to deal with you - do so without her in the picture. Because honestly, this whole affair IS about you, and not about your wife OR the OW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez... ya buncha pushers!! I'm on Day 5 of my Zoloft regimine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you. Zoloft worked wonders for me.

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: BrambleRose ]</small>

BrambleRose.... WOW... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Amazing post.

Shelle

TMD <---- Picking shards and splinters.

Orchid, LIR, Bramblerose - Thank You... You've given me much to ponder. You're cumulative tenacity in dealing with me and being appropriately brutal and compassionate is remarkable. I thank you.

And so you all know that I get it... I will summarize what the three of you have been telling me in the last several posts... and I will do it with one word.

---ACTIONS---

P.S. Orchid - I read the Trueheart letter over a month ago. At that time, I posted to him and asked if I could correspond with him privately. There may be value in the interaction with your H... I'm sure there would be...

Thank You,
-TMD