Well put, LowOrbit!

"I think you are condemning the wrong thing here. It seems you are saying the real sin here is harshly condemning adultery, instead of the adultery itself. That is sort of backwards, wouldn't you say? There is absolutely nothing wrong with condemning evil, silence only encourages it. "

You and I do not communicate well. I post something and you tell me what I'm saying, but it's not what I'm thinking or saying.

Well, this is my experience.

When my BF cheated and left me for OW, no amount of harsh judgement in the universe changed his desires or his actions or his mind. No amount of harsh criticism changed his heart. He left, he went with OW, he married her, and they are happy. No amount of finger pointing changes that.

When I was OW, I was not reached by harsh judgements. My own heart was not stirred by that.

I watch this happen with others as well. All the harsh judgement in the world doesn't seem to change anybody's wrongdoings. That's just my observation.

I absolutely believe that as a society we must define crimes and punishments. But in matters of the heart, I have yet to see someone have a change of heart in the face of harsh judgement.

I have seen people have a change of heart when THEY had a change of heart - when they reached the bottom of their own pain. When they couldn't live with themselves anymore. When they felt like trapped animals in the pain of their own actions.

I consider myself one of these people.

I have seen people have a change of heart when they were given love -either from other people or when they found God. I have seen hard people go soft and start transformations in 12 step groups when they experienced the love and acceptance the group provides them day after day.

So this is my experience. My own change of heart never came from someone else's fingerpointing or harsh critique of me. My changes have come from being reached by loving people and by my own spiritual experiences where I have felt God's presence in my life. That experience more than any other has helped me to change. No, I'm not a Christian, but I have God in my life very strongly.

LowOrbit - obviously your wife's love and mercy has had a GREAT impact on you. From your post, it seems to me that her love and God's love has had the most profound impact in your transformation. I understand what you are saying about judgement, but to me, you are an example of what I'm saying. Judgement may make someone aware, but transformations come from love, mercy, compassion, etc.

So while I others' needs to judge harshly, I don't do that anymore. I hold a set of standards for myself now that I hope not to waver from, but who knows what mistakes I will make?

Did harsh dictates of the Catholic Church prevent so many priests from molesting little boys? As far as I know, no amount of judgement can prevent a sex offender from repeating his crime.

It's a philosophical thing. I don't expect support for my views here, but I respect that you are discussing this with me. I'm going to let this thread die.

Thank you for the passages about children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
[QB]

You and I do not communicate well. I post something and you tell me what I'm saying, but it's not what I'm thinking or saying.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, we don't communicate well because I have LIVED the 12 Step philosophy of TRUTH and HONESTY for 18 years. Excuses and rationalizations are not a part of my life anymore. I have been in AA for 18 years and know that the 12 steps are not about adjusting the standards to accommodate our moral shortcomings, but changing OURSELVES to accommodate the standard. We don't excuse, we don't rationalize and we don't blameshift. We are scrupulously HONEST with ourselves.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have seen people have a change of heart when they were given love -either from other people or when they found God. I have seen hard people go soft and start transformations in 12 step groups when they experienced the love and acceptance the group provides them day after day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And having been IN a 12 step group for 18 years, I am here to tell you that part of love is being honest about bad behavior. Love is not about accepting excuses and rationalizations about abhorrent behavior. Folks who practice that kind of self deception don't last past the laugh meter in 12 step groups. It is not "love" to accept rationalizations or to pretend that bad is good.

People change and grow by taking an HONEST, appraisal of their wrongdoing, not by making excuses or silly rationalizations. People grow by facing the truth about themselves, good and bad. That is why the steps work. Excuses don't work, honesty DOES. 12 step groups condemn bad behavior with honest judgements and try to live up to a new set of standards. We don't dumb down the standards to accommodate our behavior.

You seem to be looking for avoidance of consequences through a pattern of blame shifting and rationalizations. That would never do in a 12 step setting.

Here are the 12 steps and nowhere does it condone acceptance of shortcomings or rationalizations, but strives to come to terms with them honestly and change OURSELVES. We change OURSELVES, not the standards that define our behavior.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

You see, in 12 step groups we clean up ourselves. We don't worry about the abusive mothers, the pedophile priests, etc. That is all a diversion. It is just smoke to avoid taking a look in the mirror. You can only fix you and no one else.

I am in a 12 step program. Have been for many years. So I thank you for your explanation, but I already know what it means to work a program.

Do you guys say - oh, you are a worthless piece of sh** alcoholic who messed up not only your life but everyone else's, you sinned, you are a horrible and now you have to sit here and repent and make amends for all of your horrible deeds? Is that how you treat each other?

No, we do not communicate well at all. That's OK. We'd probably not like each other very much in meetings either.

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

By the way, in the meetings I've attended over many years, people certainly are concerned with the abusive mothers and pedophile priests. Not as an excuse for today's behavior, but certainly in steps 4, 8,9 and 10.

Why? Because of the process of taking our own inventory, making amends where they are due, letting go of the past and....

FORGIVING.

My point is that it is the groups acceptance of the person that provides the safe space to change. I never, ever see harsh and judgemental behavior practiced as a group. There is much laughter, because, in my experience, people in the group are laughing in EMPATHY with the new person who is still unable to see how his/her words sound.

What's the motto? Keep coming back, you're worth it so work it. Not - you piece of crap, you've done bad and now you have to do good.

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>By the way, in the meetings I've attended over many years, people certainly are concerned with the abusive mothers and pedophile priests.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, no. People in 12 step groups are not concerned about pedophile priests or child abuse. We are there to take our OWN inventory, not everybody elses. We don't justify or rationalize or make excuses or try to divert attention away from our own wrongdoing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you guys say - oh, you are a worthless piece of sh** alcoholic who messed up not only your life but everyone else's, you sinned, you are a horrible and now you have to sit here and repent and make amends for all of your horrible deeds? Is that how you treat each other?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, if it's true. And often it is, so it's a good place to start. Admission of the truth is often half the battle. Denial will get you nowhere. Realizing that we have acted like worthless *******s is the often the first step to recovery. We didn't get into AA by singing too loud in church, after all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Without that admission, recovery and growth is impossible. Remember, it is supposed to be an honest inventory, not a reward for scummy, unacceptable behavior. And no healthy 12 step group will help its members avoid facing the harsh truth about themselves.

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 05:09 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Sorry Melody, but I've been in groups where the abusive mothers have shared about their own realizations of being abusive mothers etc., and no, there have been no pedophile priests, but there have been many people who have shared their pain at their own wrongdoings - ME INCLUDED - and who have never had the group react with - you piece of scum, how COULD you, you are BAD, HORRIBLE, WRONG.

My experience is that the group sits and listens and people say - keep coming back, you're worth it.

I've also heard that you are only as sick as your secrets, so I shared my secret, my being OW, and I was met with acceptance rather than recrimination. People rushed to me and directed me to Al-Anon and Coda. People gave me their numbers and told me to call them because they, too, had been in a relationship like that and they could help me work the program in terms of that relationship.

People told me to work on my 11th step and deepen my conscious contact with God. They guided me to 11th step meetings and told me of prayers they used to invite God's will into my life.

No, sorry, we must be in totally different programs, and I am so glad I am not in yours, because in the meetings I have attended, I have seen acceptance, guidance, love, and a belief that as long as I am honest with myself, my sponsor and my higher power, and pray to God for God's will to be done in my life, and refrain from drinking one day at a time, I will walk a path into the promises.

And thank God that has happened. And this thread has just allowed me to feel such gratitude that I have had the sponsor I've had, and the meetings I've experienced. SO thank you for giving me an opportunity to feel this gratitude. IT's a great way to start my day.

Oh, Sungirl,

I'm struggling to understand why you are having a hard time with what Melody is saying. Nothing that she has said implies that judging the sin is the same as judging the sinner.

Humans have the responsibility to make judgements about what is right and what is wrong and behave accordingly. Actually judging the worth of another person is reserved for God and God alone.

If I had continued in my affair and ended up happily married to the OW, would that have made my affair any less grievous? No, I don't think so. Could I have recognized and confessed my sin at that point? Sure I could've. But my steps to recovery would be very different.

We shouldn't judge the worth of another person, but all of us SHOULD judge the behaviors. When people rush to your side at your admission of guilt, it is with the assumption that you have recognized the error of your way and that you'll need their support to get back on the right track. Your own personal judgment and epiphany must come first. Do you think they would act the same way towards someone who wanted to continue in their sin?

It is not loving to tolerate self-destructive behavior in someone else. It is UNLOVING not to help them see their error.

If I were abusing my kids, would it be loving of you to say "He's not really a bad person, let's just love him anyway" without trying to make me see that abusing my kids is a bad thing. In this completely hypothetical instance, your most loving option towards me would be to have me arrested so the behavior could be stopped and help could be given to all involved, including me.

Judging sin harshly and acting in a loving way towards the sinner are NOT mutually exclusive.

Your observation that I was transformed by my wife's love and mercy is not entirely correct. I was truly transformed by the realization that what I did was wrong. I am truly amazed that my wife loved me enough to take me back. Without the prior, the latter could lead me to believe that what I did was ok, leading to repeat occurrences.

Low

Bringing a bit of MB concept-work in, here, it seems to me that perhaps y'all are talking about the same things, Melody and SunGirl, but focusing on different aspects of it. Melody is very strongly, and rightly, focused on the honest appraisal of one's own life, and on the standards that (this piece) of society sets.

Sungirl is focused on the part of MB that has to do with listening with respect, and making a conversation, and not heaping abuse on someone because of his or her life experiences and actions.

It seems to me that these are both extremely important things, and that any area of human interaction ought to include both. It's the essence of Plan A, isn't it? To be able to honestly say, "This is a behavior that hurts me badly. Please, will you stop it?"

Or, if you're the one who's been doing whatever it is, and you've finally come to a place (in your own time, certainly) where you can say, "This is a behavior that hurts you badly. I need to stop it, and I need some help. Will you help?"

Either one, it seems to me, takes a humility and compassion, for oneself and for the other, that is rare here, rare in society, rare in the world. It is, perhaps, the essence of what our greatest spiritual leaders talk about. Love the sinner, but not the sin. Treat the criminal with compassion as you set boundaries that protect you from additional crimes. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. All that jazz.

And it also seems to me that the ones who understand all of this the best are the ones who have been through the fire on both sides -- as sinner, and as the one sinned against. Would that we could all walk a mile in each other's shoes and feel the agony of the blisters.

I am, myself, learning a lot from both Melody and Sungirl. It gives me insight into ways to do work of my own that I have been struggling with. Each and every one of us, I think, could use to do that personal inventory. No matter who we are and how unblemished the life, we have surely caused pain that could be remedied.

For those who are Jewish, tonight begins Rosh Hashanah, the New Year. In eight days, Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonment) arrives. In the time in between, Jews are supposed to cleanse their souls for the new year and ask for forgiveness from anyone they may have wronged.

Now, probably there aren't many Jewish folks on this very Christian board, but nonetheless, wouldn't it be a good idea to do that personal inventory and see who each of us has that we've wronged and could perhaps put to right?

Like I said -- now I've got an assignment for myself. It won't be done in the next eight days, I don't think. But it's time to take some baby steps and de-clutter some more of the dark places in my soul.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
However, there are people, here and everywhere, who think that nothing they ever have done or could do is as bad as committing adultery. So on that score we will remain, uh, tainted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh ... tainted one ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My H commited adultery .... and I love and respect him very much. My next door neighbor committed adultery, however, she never made amends, and her REAL sin (to me) was her total absence of concern for the hurt she inflicted on others.....

The sin itself is not what taints us ... it's our attitude about our sin that might.

An absolutely undeniably regretful and repenting heart .... a heart that now feels with empathy the hurt inflicted on other(s) by his/her sin .... and vows to never hurt others in that way ever again .... now THAT'S a person I can trust.

A heart that says "I won't do that (sin) ever again because it caused *me* too much pain" ... but demonstrates little or no concern for the painful consequences others had to endure because of his/her sin .... why trust that person? That person only stops sinning when he/she is hurting, and not before.

"tainted" aren't we all?

Termi, I don't think you have worked out your inner conflict about your own actions yet. And the condemnation you think others may have for you, might be the whisperings of your own inner voice.

Termi ... I said you are a woman of parts, and that makes it more difficult for you to forgive yourself.

Have you begun reading "that" book yet?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

LowOrbit and Just J - what BEAUTIFUL POSTS!

LowOrbit, I don't think I'm having a hard time understanding Melody's posts. I read and re-read them. I don't see Melody mention the words love, compassion, or acceptance toward the sinner. The words aren't mentioned at all, except to say that "love" in the way I described it doesn't solve anything.

I have worked the steps and have admitted my WRONGdoings. I think infidelity is a horribly hurtful act. I was the betrayed and felt that pain, and when I was OW I was aware, deeply aware, of the pain his wife would feel if she found out.

My point in other threads is that knowledge of that pain was not enough to sever the emotional bond I had with MM 0- EVEN THOUGH I had experienced it myself. I was in 12 step, I was in therapy, I went to healers, I worked worked worked on myself to the point of exhaustion to gain the strength to leave him and nothing gave me that inner strength to cut him off while he still wanted me in his life so badly.

For me it took time. It took deepening my relationship with God. It took feeling the love and compassion of others and building a temple of SELF LOVE to be able to separate myself from him. It helped, of course, that I did not only see his good side, and seeing how he refused to take responsibility for his own actions aided me in convincing myself he'd be a terrible longterm partner. I employed any means necessary to get the will and the strength to leave that man, and make no bones about it. It was the hardest thing I have ever done. It was harder than getting over my betrayal because at least my X was with another woman and I could tell myself every day he didn't want me. MM wanted me every day, even up to and including when he found out he was getting divorced. I have no words here to describe just how hard that was.

I have not had contact with him for almost a year and I am happy for that. I am happy I am no longer in a relationship that causes so much pain to so many people.

But because I have been on both sides, and because of the spiritual teachings I have incorporated into my life, I simply do not join the crowd in passing judgement - to the infidel, the child beater, the pedophile. Yes, I believe hurtful acts should be stopped. I am simply saying that I personally am letting all the bandwagons of people gleeful in their condemnation pass me by. I'm happy that way. I like who I am at night. WHen the bandwagon goes by, maybe I'm standing there to offer that person a loving hand to try to help them get help.

edited to add: Melody, isnt' that the responsibility of the alcoholic?

Just J - I grew up Jewish but didn't practice after my Bat Mitzvah. I don't consider myself practicing the Jewish faith. In the past two years I have studied Kaballah as well as other spiritual teachings. I don't study Kaballah anymore, but Kaballah was soothing to the soul. It is not traditional judaism at all, but espouses the Spiritual Principles that are present in all faiths.

Sh'nah Tovah.

Peace to everyone.

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>LowOrbit and Just J - what BEAUTIFUL POSTS!

LowOrbit, I don't think I'm having a hard time understanding Melody's posts. I read and re-read them. I don't see Melody mention the words love, compassion, or acceptance toward the sinner. The words aren't mentioned at all, except to say that "love" in the way I described it doesn't solve anything.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is because you don't view condemnation of bad behavior as an act of love, I do. There is nothing "loving" or "compassionate" about letting others drown in their own self destruction by helping them perputuate their delusions.

A REAL FRIEND will help his friend recognize the gravity of his wrongs. That is the path to real healing, not in feel good futile talk that enables sick people to continue in their sickness.

In AA, we help each other get honest about our wrongdoing, we don't aide each other in deluding ourselves that wrong is right and vice versa. THAT is love. Love is not found in phony, nice sounding words, but in the truth. Talk is cheap.

LowOrbit, thank you doing for such a wonderful job of clarifying for me, you expressed it much better than I!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry Melody, but I've been in groups where the abusive mothers have shared about their own realizations of being abusive mothers etc., and no, there have been no pedophile priests, but there have been many people who have shared their pain at their own wrongdoings - ME INCLUDED - and who have never had the group react with - you piece of scum, how COULD you, you are BAD, HORRIBLE, WRONG.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But YOU are not an abusive mother or a pedophile priest, yet you brought it up here as a diversion - that is my point.

And while AA people don't point their finger at wrongdoing, they sure help people come to truthful realizations about their OWN scummy, horrible behavior. There is no healing until that takes place.

The beauty of 12 step groups [healthy ones, that is] is that they don't take very kindly to excuses and rationalizations from bull**** artists and don't hesitate to point it out when it occurs. They help others GET HONEST real quick if they are not honest about thier "BAD, HORRIBLE, WRONG" behavior. THAT IS LOVE, not hiding from that truth.

There is a favored saying in AA [the originator of the 12 steps, BTW] and that is:

"ya can't bullsh** a bullshi**er." That is why AA works.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>

But because I have been on both sides, and because of the spiritual teachings I have incorporated into my life, I simply do not join the crowd in passing judgement - to the infidel, the child beater, the pedophile. Yes, I believe hurtful acts should be stopped. I am simply saying that I personally am letting all the bandwagons of people gleeful in their condemnation pass me by. I'm happy that way. I like who I am at night. WHen the bandwagon goes by, maybe I'm standing there to offer that person a loving hand to try to help them get help.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are talking to someone who has also been on both sides and has been in recovery for 18 years. And I am here to tell you that there is nothing loving about ignoring destructive behavior. Honesty is the only path to recovery. All you do is enable the person to continue drowning in their own self destruction. There is nothing loving or compassionate about that.

People who really care will level with another about their self destructive behavior; people who don't care will blather nice words at them because they don't care enough to take a risk. Nothing loving about that.

Melody -
can you show me which of my posts espouses ignoring destructive behavior?

I noticed child abuse in two separte cases and posted about it. I talke about pedophile priests. Where am I espousing that this behavior is OK?

Can ya clue me in?

Also, where do I espouse allowing anyone engaging in destructive behavior to wallow? Can you show me where you got that from my posts?

Cause I'm noticing hurtful behavior - including my own - and am talking about the difference between harsh judgement and love in reaching people engaging in hurtful behavior.

Your reactions to my posts change each time. If I notice hurtful behavior I am diverting attention from myself. I spoke at lenght about myself and somehow I am still, according to you, not noticing hurtful behavior, taking responsibility for my own, or acting proactively to try to reach people to help them change.

So like I said before, we don't communicate well, cause till this moment, I have no idea what you want from me, or what inspires you to read my posts the way you do.

I hope you find it elsewhere.

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

P.S.

When you say level with people, do you mean telling them they are scum, horrible, rotton people who have behaved like [censored] and idiots?

Is that what you call leveling?

Because I'm saying it's totally possible to talk to someone about their hurtful behavior with love and still get the message across powerfully.

LowOrbit talks about the difference between the behavior and the person. If I read your posts correctly, you are disagreeing with me that compassion towards a person engaging in destructive behavior is desireable. Every time I say that you disagree, telling me that in your program you...

what?

What exactly do YOU, you personally, say to people who have hurt others in the past? Have you honestly sat next to someone in a meeting and said - you are a total #hit, you are worthless, horrible, mean and nasty and you deserve every ounce of pain you feel?
What do you say to your sponsees?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>
Have you honestly sat next to someone in a meeting and said - you are a total #hit, you are worthless, horrible, mean and nasty and you deserve every ounce of pain you feel?
What do you say to your sponsees?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sungirl, you did not respond to a single point I made above. I would like to hear your response to my point that it is no act of love to help someone in their own delusion. Where did I ever say that anyone tells anyone they are "you are a total #hit, you are worthless, horrible, mean and nasty and you deserve every ounce of pain you feel?" C'mon. You are exaggerating my comments here to distort my point. Being honest with someone is not the same as calling them names. I don't have to give you verbatim dialogue to convey this simple point.

As I stated above, it is certainly not LOVE to aide and abet someone in the rationalization of their own destructive behavior. People delude themselves enough without your help. Bad behavior should be condemned.

You seem to ignore this point and talk around it although I have made this statement numerous times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cause I'm noticing hurtful behavior - including my own - and am talking about the difference between harsh judgement and love in reaching people engaging in hurtful behavior.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the problem that I, and many others above, have with your posts is that you believe it's somehow BAD to "harshly condemn" bad behavior. Bad, destructive behavior SHOULD BE harshly judged. It is BAD. It helps noone to gloss over that point.

If *YOU* are being honest with yourself, then *YOU* should condemn your own bad behavior. That is the first step in recovery. As we saw with the steps I posted from AA, that is the POINT OF the 12 steps. For the user to get HONEST about thier own behavior. NOT to whitewash bad behavior that should be condemned.

Melody, we are talking in circles around each other.

I asked you to point out where I said it was OK to help people continue with their own hurtful behavior.

I can't find one place in any of my posts where I espoused that.

I have stated my point which is that in my own experience, myself and others I have seen, I have seen how compassion and love has reached people and helped them IN A CHANGE OF HEART. I, personally, have never seen a person engaging in hurtful behavior have a change of heart while standing in the spotlight of harsh judgement.

I also stated that people seem to have a change of heart when their own pain at their behavior becomes too great to bear.

When I say these things, you accuse me of stating that I believe it is wrong to harshly judge. Will you look at my posts and tell me where I said it was wrong to do that?

I have said I have not seen harsh judgement be EFFECTIVE IN REACHING PEOPLE. I have also said that for me personally, having experienced my own life, I feel better about myself and my ability to reach people when I act from compassion.

I have also said in my own life I have taken rigorous moral inventory and worked the steps, and that the people who reached out to me with love had a profound effect on my path to a different life.

In my own life, nobody who stood before me judging me harshly has reached me.

So, where in all of my posts do you see me use the words "it is wrong to judge" or where do you see me state that it is OK to help others wallow in their own hurtful behavior?

Honestly Melody, you are reading your own words into my posts. I am not stating the things you are reading.

Also, could you please show me in the steps or in the Big Book where it asks us to condemn our own behavior?

Honestly, I have never, ever heard that word used in any of my meetings, nor when I did my BB workshops, nor when I went through the steps with my sponsor. Never, ever, ever have I heard or seen the word condemn.

I have seen and heard admitting I was powerless, coming to believe that a Higher Power can restore me to sanity, turning my will and my life over to him......making a searching and fearless moral inventory, admitting my wrongs and apologizing promptly, making amends except when it hurts others, asking God to remove my character defects, praying for the strength to do his will, and having a spiritual transformation as a result of these and other steps, not necessarily in that order, LOL.

So if you care to show me the passages in the Big Book or the 12 and 12 that teach us to CONDEMN, it would be very helpful to put us both on the same page.

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
[QB]

When I say these things, you accuse me of stating that I believe it is wrong to harshly judge. Will you look at my posts and tell me where I said it was wrong to do that?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, here are just a few examples:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When my BF cheated and left me for OW, no amount of harsh judgement in the universe changed his desires or his actions or his mind. No amount of harsh criticism changed his heart. He left, he went with OW, he married her, and they are happy. No amount of finger pointing changes that.

When I was OW, I was not reached by harsh judgements. My own heart was not stirred by that.

I watch this happen with others as well. All the harsh judgement in the world doesn't seem to change anybody's wrongdoings. That's just my observation.

But in matters of the heart, I have yet to see someone have a change of heart in the face of harsh judgement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have said I have not seen harsh judgement be EFFECTIVE IN REACHING PEOPLE. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So are you saying that harsh judgements are RIGHT in those quotes?

I think you are confusing judgement of the person with judgement of the BEHAVIOR. And I would have to disagree vehemently about harsh judgement not reaching people. You don't "reach" people by blowing smoke up their [censored], you reach them by being HONEST with them and helping them become honest with themselves. There should always be harsh judgement of bad behavior and the first step to recovery is comdemning one's OWN bad behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have also said that for me personally, having experienced my own life, I feel better about myself and my ability to reach people when I act from compassion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But should you "feel better" about bad behavior? How is it "compassionate" to make someone feel good about bad behavior? I think that is crucial to my point here. No one should "feel good" about bad behavior. They should feel bad.

They should feel good about CHANGING THEIR BEHAVIOR and being good. And this is what I mean by changing oneself to reach the standard rather than dumbing down the standard to accommodate bad behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So, where in all of my posts do you see me use the words "it is wrong to judge" or where do you see me state that it is OK to help others wallow in their own hurtful behavior?
.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then we agree if you believe it's RIGHT to judge and WRONG to help others wallow in their own hurtful behaviors.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>Also, could you please show me in the steps or in the Big Book where it asks us to condemn our own behavior?

Honestly, I have never, ever heard that word used in any of my meetings, nor when I did my BB workshops, nor when I went through the steps with my sponsor. Never, ever, ever have I heard or seen the word condemn.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe I already showed you the steps. Although the word "condemn" is not there, obviously we don't accept or condone our defects of character or shortcomings; we come to terms with them and work to correct them. We humbly make amends for the wrongs we have committed against others.

That is the whole point of AA. I'm not sure what meetings you have been to or what a "BB workshop" is, but I assure you that AA does not condone alcoholic drinking or the resultant destruction.