ShelleBelle,

Thanks for your reply to my comments.

The reason I began by asking "does it matter" is simply that each of us is constrained to change himself only. You cannot change your H. So, what's the point of asking if what he's doing is "wrong"?

The better question, IMHO, is "How can I respond to him?"

I understand your frustration. My W does something similar.

But... what good does it do for me to dwell on this? I can't change my wife. What I can change is for me not to go along with things that I might resent later - and to drag my feet a bit on decisions that I suspect she might change her mind about - to avoid the thrash.

It is frustrating to repeatedly be told - how unhappy she is with me - how she wants somebody else - while at the same time saying that she doesn't want a divorce. There is nothing I can do about all that.

I didn't mean to say that your husband is not really unhappy, but rather that he may not know why he is unhappy - and thinks it is because of these choices (career, moving etc.) but might just as well have been unhappy if he had made different choices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Where is his responsibility in this?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he does have responsibility, but I don't know what you can do (if anything) to encourage him to take responsibility. I would have thought that that was part of military training, but I suppose "just following orders" might be the universal disavowal of responsibility.

The things you say about your H's background are similar to my W's.

In short, I don't know how to handle it. It is a constant struggle for me.

-AD

<small>[ October 01, 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>

Hi AD,

"The better question, IMHO, is "How can I respond to him?"
Definitely agree with you there, and was trying to get that question across.

"Even something she seemed enthusiastic about in the past, she may now be indifferent to at best. She seems to be like that in everything - including marriage and "choice" of husband. (She denies that she chose me, but says that her mother forced her to marry me.)"
It is painful to hear regrets like this, especially because even on our worst days I can't imagine my life better without him, but it seems he can imagine a better life without ME - and doesn't have a problem with voicing that.

"But... what good does it do for me to dwell on this? I can't change my wife. What I can change is for me not to go along with things that I might resent later - and to drag my feet a bit on decisions that I suspect she might change her mind about - to avoid the thrash."
It doesn't do any good to "dwell" on it, but how can you ignore it? Do you go into some kind of denial mode where you tell yourself "she really doesn't mean that"? I did that before the A - but post-A I have a really hard time convincing myself of it. And why should I have to? I married because I was in love, and I still AM in love. I question whether or not he IS or ever WAS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

"It is frustrating to be told over and over again - that she didn't want to marry me - that she wants somebody else - that she doesn't want to live a life without love - while at the same time saying that she doesn't want a divorce. There is nothing I can do about all that."
There is exactly the crux of this - what gives my H, your W, or anyone else the RIGHT to say those things, then refuse to use the option of divorce?
Aren't we, (as Dr.Phil says) "teaching them how to treat us"?? How can we expect them to treat us with respect if we don't respect ourselves enough to call them on the BS when the try that on us?
Are we that insecure as BS's?

"I didn't mean to say that your husband is not really unhappy, but rather that he may not know why he is unhappy - and thinks it is because of these choices (career, moving etc.) but might just as well have been unhappy if he had made different choices."
Oh, he's thoroughly convinced that his life would be absolutely fabulous had he lived it the way hes says he intended to. Funny how LIFE happens when you are making other plans.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

"Could you edit your post?"
Sure - will do after posting this one.

"I think he does have responsibility, but I don't know what you can do (if anything) to encourage him to take responsibility. I would have thought that that was part of military training, but I suppose "just following orders" might be the universal disavowal of responsibility"
Very good point... maybe the military appealed to him because they take most of the decision-making away from you right from the beginning. Interesting...

"Her Mom was also a tyrant. Actually, when we were engaged and W was thinking about breaking the engagment, her Mom told her "You are nothing without AD. I'll never speak to you again if you don't marry him." What kind of Mom would say such a thing to her daughter?!"
Never ceases to amaze me how many of them are out there... oh the damage they can inflict... if they only knew how deep and how long it goes...

"In short, I don't know how to handle it. It is a constant struggle for me."
Well, even if you don't have the answers I was seeking, it is comforting to hear of others facing the same challenges.

Thanks for taking the time to post.
Good luck to you.

Shelle

ShelleBelle,

I don't think I helped, but thanks for the opportunity to co-miserate.

Actually, I think you are in better shape than I am - since you say you still feel in love with your H. I'm so tired... I feel pity for my W. I feel responsibility for her and for our child. I would terribly miss our child if I were reduced to a weekend father. But... it would be a tremendous relief to be free of the daily conflicts and struggles of living with my W.

-AD

<small>[ October 01, 2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>

AD, I edited my earlier post and removed the info you asked me to. (Sorry - got distracted)

I guess you & I are in the same slow-sinking boat. (or at least that's how it feels to me)

Being a woman, I don't feel the same responsibility to stay in this situation as you do in yours. Unfair, yes - but I would probably have my son more often and I make as much money as my H, so I know I would be ok.

Maybe the real question is: "Why do I stay?"

I know it all comes down to us not being able to change another person, I just don't know at times like these how long I can accept that he won't attempt to change himself.

I want to be living a fully happy, loving, intimate life WITH him, but I feel destined to just living this half-life AROUND him.

Take Care,
Shelle

^^^ bump ^^^ ... last post didn't show on main list of recent posts...

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ShelleBelle66:
<strong>Being a woman, I don't feel the same responsibility to stay in this situation as you do in yours. Unfair, yes - but I would probably have my son more often and I make as much money as my H, so I know I would be ok.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife is a stay-at-home Mom. She hasn't finished her college degree and has relatively poor prospects for employment. OM is still around, but he is also (at 29) still a student, and is very unlikely to be able to support her in the style to which she has grown accustomed - at least not anytime soon. And neither I nor W knows if OM is able to live with her (a very difficult task in my experience).

Just the other night I was fantasizing about going to see her OM and making an "arrangement". In less than a year, several important things will be squared away: I need to sell my other house and settle my Mom's estate. W will become a citizen. Passing those milestones will put us in a better configuration to D - and meanwhile OM will be a year closer to graduation. Maybe we could sell the new house and divorce then - they would have a year to date (they never really have had much face-to-face time - was mostly internet and phone) and could marry upon his graduation. All very civilized...

If I knew for sure that OM was up to it and that she would genuinely be happy, I would go for it.

-AD

AD, wow. How sad, but how kind of you. It sounds like you are further disconnected from your W than I had guessed, but still your compassion is admirable given the situation.

Take Care,
Shelle

ShelleBelle,

Thanks for keeping up the thread.

I don't often think that way (about OM). It's just that my LB is well into the negative zone and I feel so helpless and lonely. Helpless to help my wife, not for myself. I could be happy living by myself. It would hurt, of course, to actually see it happen like that - that she would get together with OM - to see the realization of my failure as a husband.

It would be a relief to see her happy, however.

I don't know how it would affect our child.

I mentioned this idea to W tonight. She is still (and always) afraid. I don't think she really wants OM anymore. She is just certain that she can never love me - and that she will be miserable unless she can love her H.

It really reminds me of our 2-almost-3-year-old. W is in a way - in a slow-motion kind of way - kicking and screaming as if she is being made to do something against her will. She feels trapped, and she is determined not to allow me to be happy - determined not to allow herself to be happy with me.

She tells me (again tonight) that she wishes that part of her that wants romatic love would die and she could just be content taking care of the practical matters of life. I replied that she should fight against that thought. That's a kind of spiritual suicide.

Anyway, after our usual evening quarrel, we moved some furniture around - and W seemed to feel better about that - and is now sleeping.

You wrote that I was compassionate to my W. Perhaps that is all it ever was. I felt sorry for her, so I married her to "make it all better". Boy! Was that a mistake!

I'd better go.

Somewhere in here we're forgetting to talk about your situation. I'm sorry. This is your thread. I guess I'm so glad to have somebody to "talk" to that I forget my manners. Next post has to be about your situation.

-AD

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>