TMD:

"I've read a few Greg Bear novels.. EON and Blood Music are a couple off the top of my head. "

LOL! I've read some of those 2! Moving Mars is a good one.

But I was referring 2 Greg Baer, not Bear. Sorry I got the 2 mixed. Baer wrote "The Truth About Relationships" which is about unconditional love. Probably the clearest text on the subject that I've found.

"What do we have in life that's more important than the relationships with the people around us? But where do we learn how to develop those relationships? Who sits down with us and teaches us how to share ourselves with other people? We certainly don't learn it in school. We learn algebra, history, and English instead. With relationships, we learn by the painful process of trial and error. Is it then any wonder that we make so many mistakes? It is any surprise that our relationships fail so often?

Most relationships are doomed from the start. Two people who don't have what it takes to be happy come together and expect their partner to supply them with what they need. That's impossible -- two unhappy and incomplete people cannot make each other happy, nor can they create a fulfilling relationship. But they still have those unreasonable expectations, and when they don't get what they want from each other, they become frustrated and angry.

So what's missing? What do we need to be happy? From birth the thing we all want most is to feel loved. But not just any kind of love will do. We need Real Love -- unconditional love -- where people care about our happiness with no thought for what they might get for themselves. It's Real Love when people don't get disappointed or angry when we make our foolish mistakes, even when we inconvenience them personally. Very few of us ever got that kind of love. Instead, people loved us when we were "good," when we did what they wanted us to do. People smiled at us and praised us when we were clean, quiet, obedient, grateful, and didn't fight with our sister. But when we made mistakes, made messes, made too much noise in the car, fought with our sister, got bad grades, dragged dirt across the clean floor, and were otherwise inconvenient, we didn't hear the same kind words or see the same smiles that we did when we were good. Although no one meant to tell us this, we quickly learned that we were loved conditionally.

Unfortunately, conditional love leaves us feeling empty and alone. It feels worthless because we have to earn it. In effect, we have to buy conditional love with our behavior. Without Real Love, we never feel genuinely happy and complete. We then try to fill our emptiness with money, praise, approval, power, sex, and other pleasures, but those things never bring us the real happiness we're looking for. We also establish relationships with people, hoping that they will bring us the happiness we're missing, but if they don't have Real Love to offer, they can't help us, either. And we can't bring any genuine happiness into their lives."

- Introduction 2 "The Truth About Relationships" by Greg Baer.

-kid 2long.

No one leaves unconditional love?
The evening of D-day, after my WW had called from a hotel room to let me know she was with OM, I asked her to come home so that we could talk. That night I said to her, "I can not make you stay. But in all the world, in all of your life, you will never find another who loves you more than I do".
Her reply? "I know that is true. I doesn't matter."

Harley brought this up two weeks ago in his radio program. It really helped me because my H has talked about my being uncommitted.

Harley said that great marriage are very conditional. You work hard to meet each other's needs. People who expect unconditional love are really saying, "I want to do what I want to do without regard for your feelings." He classifies those people as freeloaders and, when they marry, their attitude is "You're committed. You're stuck with me. I can do whatever I want."

I think that, realistically, love is conditional. You think it is unconditional when your ENs have been met very well for a long period of time. But, one broken arm, one bashed in forehead, one affair, and about 50 incidents of violence later, and I would say that I finally learned to give up the concepts of commitment to a person no matter what he does and unconditional love no matter what he does. I realize that commitment and "for better or for worse" means you face difficult circumstances (like the death of a child) together with mutual care, not you put up with whatever your spouse does even if it is without regard for you.

Tough lesson to learn. I really clung to the concept of commitment. It took quite a lot for it to be given up.

23down:

"That night I said to her, "I can not make you stay. But in all the world, in all of your life, you will never find another who loves you more than I do"."

And this came from a position of realization that, whatever she does, you will love her. It doesn't mean you can live with her. This is such a common misconception about giving unconditional love that I'm totally baffled by it.

"Her reply? "I know that is true. I doesn't matter." "

And right now it clearly does not matter. She's wrapped up in her fantasy. The bubble has not burst. She has not realized that she's trashed her own integrity, as well as 2 families, by getting involved with this OM.

And, 23down, YOU know that, if plan A/B works, your W will realize how wrong that statement was. Right now, she simply can't.

-kid 2long

bhaa:

"Harley said that great marriage are very conditional."

I agree. Read my posts 2 Mark's December thread (as Qfwfq/T-zero). Marriage is a contract, and contracts are conditional. MARRIAGE is conditional. This says nothing about LOVE.

"You work hard to meet each other's needs. People who expect unconditional love are really saying, "I want to do what I want to do without regard for your feelings.""

This is ridiculous. You can tell Dr. Harley I said so. I suppose it may be misconstrued by manipulators, either consciously or unconsciously, as unconditional love so that they get what they want, but it's not only not unconditional love, it's not love at all. It's cruelty.

"He classifies those people as freeloaders and, when they marry, their attitude is "You're committed. You're stuck with me. I can do whatever I want.""

Yes, I would classify 'those people' as freeloaders or even mental abusers. Not "lovers", any kind of love, at all. This has nothing 2 do with what unconditional love is or isn't. It describes manipulators and abusers.

"I think that, realistically, love is conditional. You think it is unconditional when your ENs have been met very well for a long period of time."

I agree that many of us believe that we're being loved unconditionally when things are going well for a long time. And so, when we discover our S is unhappy and is having an A, we realize we weren't loved unconditionally at all, but conditionally (if you meet my needs, I'll love you back and remain faithful). But rather than "blame" my problems and 'mistreatment' on my belief that I was being unconditionally loved and now I'm not, I chose 2 figure out what it really means. What IS it? not "I'm miserable, so it's a crock".

"But, one broken arm, one bashed in forehead, one affair, and about 50 incidents of violence later, and I would say that I finally learned to give up the concepts of commitment to a person no matter what he does and unconditional love no matter what he does. I realize that commitment and "for better or for worse" means you face difficult circumstances (like the death of a child) together with mutual care, not you put up with whatever your spouse does even if it is without regard for you."

Unconditional love does NOT mean tolerating abuse!

From Guy Pettit:

"To truly love in this way could include:

·  To call forth a sense of responsibility, and a capacity to make wise choices.

·        To point out weaknesses people have, - but very caringly so that the best in the person is drawn forth in response, rather than resistance.

·        To challenge people to strive and attain, and discover their true selves..

·        To help people work on their habits and weaknesses so that they become stronger. To show them how to use their will correctly.

·        To help people learn to cooperate, and thus to overcome their little egos.

·        To engage people in working for humanity.

·        To teach people how to overcome their prejudices, resentments, separative tendencies, vanities, illusions, and other blocks to their own joy.

To truly love in this way does NOT mean:

·        To surrender to weakness.

·        To accept things that are harmful.

·        To encourage weakness or irresponsibility.

·        To accept dirt or ugliness in thought, feeling or action.

·        To exploit or use people.

·        To put people into sleep.

·        To tolerate laziness."

-kid 2long

Also from Guy Pettit:

"Unconditional love is enlarging the self, and an act of will. It is not a feeling or an emotional reaction. Think of the difference between falling in love, and growing in love through all difficulties and conflicts. Unconditional love is an act of mental and spiritual will, it cannot and does not take place upon the emotional level, which is where the problems first register. Unconditional love is extending oneself in the service of the spiritual growth of oneself and/or another, independently of reward or the behavior of others."

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's pretty clearly NOT the same thing as it's so often misconstrued 2 be on this forum.

When I'm successfully loving unconditionally, I'm doing it for my personal benefit. Now, don't misunderstand me, I don't mean gaining something at someone else's expense. When I love unconditionally, I am improving myself, maintaining my integrity, treating others fairly, POSTING 2 them thoughtfully... Maybe I'll get something good back from them, maybe I won't. It doesn't matter. It's my own spiri2al growth that it's for. ...and it's the right thing 2 do.

Am I always successful? Heckfire no! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-kid 2long

I'm diggin' it 2Long. You and ARK are both very convincing in your arguements.

-TMD

TMD:

Good! Now, figure out what it means 2 you!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-kid 2long