Hi WMWB...I did read your post and figured it was directed towards me. I'm tired out tonight and not feeling great...so I was going to respond tomorrow.

I will tell you this...I know it SEEMS like this is just what she wants...but understand she's trying to convince HERSELF of that as well.

I'll write more tomorrow, k?

Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK - I went in our van and was looking for a couple of kids tapes ( my children are always asking me to play a kids song when I have them) I found a hand held radio - so she can talk to OM with out using phone I assume.. Why can't she just be honest? Why does she have to do this to us ? Why can't she see the pain and hurt she is causing to me and the children? God I love this Woman.. but I'm getting tired of this. It is so hard being in love with someone that doesn't love you back or is in love with someone else.
We watched a movie last night again.. this time in the bedroom . She was laying on the bed and so was I .. she kept her distance the whole time and I touched her arm and she shruged me off. I asked her if it made her nervouse that I was lying in bed with her and she said yes sort of.. we've lied in bed together for ten years ..

L&C
It is almost scary how our situations parallel each other. My W and I used to lay in bed and watch Leno. Same sort of things happened. She'd keep a distance, I touch her and she'd recoil. The last weekend she was at home, we painted the bedroom together and watched a movie. We layed on the couch together, slept on the couch together. The next day she was freaked out by the closeness with me. That was the day she spen tthe whole day with friends and the OM, then spent the night with OM and lied about it.

I hate this. It seems like just 6 weeks ago we were so in love with each other. We had our problems, but at least we both were trying to work them out. Now this. Why did that son of a b*tch have to tell her he had feelings for her??? It has been a downward spiral since. I think that crossed some MAJOR "guy" boundries. You just don't go after another guys wife like that. I just can't believe this.

Okay guys...I need you to start thinking less emotionally and more logically.

The things you can't begin to fathom as to why your WS is acting this way or that...is because THEY are thinking emotionally. You're saying...well that's not logical. Well...duh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It doesn't make sense to you, because you aren't in a WS messy mindset right now. STAY THAT WAY!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why can't she just be honest? Why does she have to do this to us ? Why can't she see the pain and hurt she is causing to me and the children?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honest?!?! Are you kidding? Where exactly did you think honesty fit in to this??? IT DOESN'T! She's being an idiot, and in such will act accordingly. Duh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And she doesn't see the pain, because she's in justification and self-serving mode right now. AKA the fog. Trust me, I was there...it's ugly. Your mind is just a huge mess. I'm a very logical person...but with everything going on I was addictive and VINdictive. I was everything but me. And in the end...that's what pulls them out of the fog. Because you can't keep up the fasade of being someone else, especially someone you don't respect or even LIKE, for too long.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was laying on the bed and so was I .. she kept her distance the whole time and I touched her arm and she shruged me off. I asked her if it made her nervouse that I was lying in bed with her and she said yes sort of.. we've lied in bed together for ten years .. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">QUIT IT!!! Dammit man!!! You're just bound and determined to let your emotions control you, aren't you??? Ok...enough tongue lashing...I know it's terribly hard and painful.

But seriously, do NOT initiate things like that with her. She's in protection mode...it doesn't have to make sense to you, and although it IS a rejection, if you understand that SHE isn't HER right now and that it isn't the woman you married that's rejecting you...it's some creature who's taken over her body and who's visualizing you as the enemy who is rejecting you....well, then maybe you can take this less personally. THIS ISN'T PERSONAL!!

Give her space and don't touch her unless she initiates!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The next day she was freaked out by the closeness with me. That was the day she spen tthe whole day with friends and the OM, then spent the night with OM and lied about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's why it freaked her out. The guilt toys with your mind. The one side wants to be honest and good and do the right thing...but the other side says WHAT ABOUT ME, I don't feel good with H anymore and I hurt and I feel good when OM tells me nice things and we have fun together...so then side B tries to talk side A in to what they want. Side B tries to convince Side A that what they're doing IS the right thing...and then the justification begins. So yes...she freaked. Because either she was snuggling with the enemy, or she was doing the wrong thing by running around with OM.

I don't know how else to convince you guys. When we were going through it we read from the same script. I from the WS one, and my H from the BS one. But from where we are today, we can look at your situation and see it perfectly clearly.

If you can start to look at the situation as a project...and start to gain some understanding as to why they do what they do...and back away from the situation on a personal level...maybe you'll find some peace and GET THROUGH THIS!!!

Ok, so forgive the dumb question then, but I have to ask.

If this is a project, what exactly is my task to be undertaking right now? I understand that i need to detach emotionally and look at this objectivly. Fine, it sucks but I thin I can do that. But that isn't really a task, it is a frame of mind necessary to complete a task. What is the task at hand?

Forgive my persistance here, I'm the engineer type and need to look a things in terms of a process. The problem being, I seem to have lost my place in this process. What should I be DOING? I know how I should be ACTING, but what should I be doing? We are in plan B, we have no contact except for picking up and dropping off the kids. No small talk, no hanging out, nothing. Do I just detach and let this work for awhile? Is there something else I should be doing? I realize she is hurting as well, having a deep innerpersonal struggle of sorts. What can I do to tip the scales towards the family and away from the OM?

What should you be doing? Are you serious?

#1 Make a plan. You know the goal...RIGHT?!?! Then put together a plan of action to get you to that goal

#2 Stay sane. That means you need to detach, get informed, and keep yourself busy and as healthy and happy as possible.

#3 Your project is NOT to fiddle with the A. You can't tip the scales by doing anything in that area (on occassion, but not by general rule). So for now, your focus is not there. You tip the scales by being strong and happy and someone that other people want to be around. You tip the scales by being sane in the midst of insanity. You tip the scales by being PROACTIVE, and not REACTIVE.

Is that more explanitory???

brava! hope4future's last post was awesome. these are really BIG keys to success.

i looked at my plan a from a sales standpoint. who was going to make the sale? the strong, confident one who listened to his customer (the ws) and matched his solution to her need? or would it be the weak, emotional one who begs for the sale or pressures the customer? from whom would you buy?

the best sales people let customers sell themselves on the product. they develop trust and become the natural, more attractive choice.

it's exactly the same in your situation.

if the sales person example doesn't work, try to find one that helps you wrap your head around this. it will make it easier to implement because it's familiar.

Thank you **bows**

Thank you again **bows** hits head on table on the way down **OW**

and on the back of the head on the way up **OW!!**...

$*&(#(*&!!!!

Ok...nuff of that. Sheesh.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK, stay calm and bear with me here...please...

I understand that I need to remain sane, taking that one day at a time. Trying to eat, trying to sleep, trying to stay busy at work, on anti-d's, trying like hell to detach. Ok, I get that.

I also understand that I need to focus on me. Staying healthy, trying to move on with life a little while marriage is in flux. Taking on projects around the house, working out alot more, trying to stay socially active with friends and nieghbors. I get that as well.

Here is the part I don't get. What plan am I supposed to make? Yeah, I know the desired outcome...I want my wife back!!!! But what plan should I be forming? I'm sorry for not getting this, are you literally talking about making a plan to get her back, or are you reffering to following plan B and how I intend on doing that?

<cringing in fear of flames coming this way>

If you are intending for me to form a new plan, isn't that counter to plan B, where I have nothing to do with her? And if I have nothing to do with her, how would a new plan entice her back? Give it to me straight here, from a FWW's viewpoint. Please, at this point what would be the best thing for me to do?

Calm?? I'm never calm!! Does it hurt??

Ok..I'll be back soon...got to run out a bit. I'll think on it and see how clearly I can explain it (unless someone else comes to my aid in the meantime!!)

And hey...when did I ever have a flamethrower?? That's a...ummm...candle lighter behind my back...yea, that's it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hope4Future,
I don&#8217;t know if you know my story but I&#8217;ve got some questions. I&#8217;ve read about your story and you give us BS&#8217;s a better perspective of what a WS is thinking.

Right now my WH and I are in kind of a Plan b. I gave him the plan b letter but said he &#8220;misplaced&#8221; it and never read it. The reason I know this is b/c we sort of had a fight about OW being around my 8 month old daughter (we had previously agreed that OW would not be around children when he was visiting them). Well long story short, he &#8220;misplaced&#8221; it and never read it. Whether I believe him or not doesn&#8217;t matter. I&#8217;ve been told that he probably did read it but doesn&#8217;t want to acknowledge it. Wants thing to remain the way they are, him being with OW and us being friendly (plan a, cake eater). And never gave him another copy of it.

About a 1 ½ month ago, during my plan A (after 2 months into it) I started noticing him talking more and more about wanting to work things out. Wanting to reconcile, of course, it was all talk, no action behind those words. So I decided to go into plan b, had my letter written for a while and finally decided to give it to him. After our argument about our daughter, he said that it was over. He said that he tried but all we do is fight and he has no where else to go. WH was living with OW for 3 months and moved out for about 2 weeks but moved back into her parent&#8217;s house again, after our argument. He claimed that I got him kicked out of his parent&#8217;s house (because I let my MIL know how I felt about OW being around my daughter) after our argument and went back to OW house to live with her again.

Ok, this just blows my mind. He&#8217;s living with OW at her parent&#8217;s house!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Don&#8217;t know if he pays for rent or anything. But I KNOW, that he doesn&#8217;t do anything around the house, that I know for sure. B/C he never did anything around our house! Maybe an occasion, take out the trash, but that&#8217;s about it! WHAT IS HE THINKING? Living at her house with her parents! Kind of like a free loader. FREE LOADING! IS HE INSANE!?!?!?!?!!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I was so upset, kind of started doing the &#8220;BUT, I love you, I love you more than she will ever love you&#8221; thing, big mistake&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; yes I know, but after seeing a glimmer of hope I was crushed AGAIN. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

It&#8217;s been about 3 weeks since all of this. There hasn&#8217;t been much contact from him or from me. I&#8217;m trying to detach myself from him. The divorce is going through but, very SLOWLY. When he calls he tries to initiate small talk but I don&#8217;t bite, just try to discuss the kids and that&#8217;s it. I&#8217;m courteous and respectful but very short. I truly don&#8217;t think he knows what it&#8217;s like LOSING me.

I keep thinking to myself &#8220;THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME, AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH HIM&#8221;. He has major issues. His dad did the same thing to his mom, they divorced but latter remarried. And I&#8217;m thinking that he&#8217;s thinking the same thing too. In a way he thinks I&#8217;ll always be there for him.

Since this divorce is dragging, he hasn&#8217;t felt the effects of losing his marriage. And I believe this is a major trigger for him. The last time we were in court he was talking about reconciling while we were waiting in the courtroom, this was in June. And I feel he&#8217;ll do this again when we have to go back to court. Who knows!

How did you feel as the divorce was going and nearing the end?

Were you trying to convince yourself that this is what you wanted?

When you found out your H was dating, did you think that&#8217;s it, it&#8217;s over? Oh, well?

How were you feelings toward OM when you were &#8220;coming out of the fog&#8221;?

Thanks, I hope you don't feel like these are repetative questions! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Most of those questions can be answered in the thread where JR and I talk a lot about that. I'll bump it again, it's something to do with age.

"I understand that I need to remain sane, taking that one day at a time. Trying to eat, trying to sleep, trying to stay busy at work, on anti-d's, trying like hell to detach. Ok, I get that."

Grrrreat!

"I also understand that I need to focus on me. Staying healthy, trying to move on with life a little while marriage is in flux. Taking on projects around the house, working out alot more, trying to stay socially active with friends and nieghbors. I get that as well."

Wonnnnnerful!!

"Here is the part I don't get. What plan am I supposed to make? Yeah, I know the desired outcome...I want my wife back!!!! But what plan should I be forming? I'm sorry for not getting this, are you literally talking about making a plan to get her back, or are you reffering to following plan B and how I intend on doing that?"

Okay, I didn't realize you are in plan B. But that said...there is your plan. Now, for some, just knowing they are in Plan B is enough. They detach and go about their business as if they aren't married right now. It's kind of a trial divorce. I guess it's just a short term acceptance...because it may be the reality at some point so at some point you may just HAVE to accept it. But short term, it's a trial thing.

If understanding Plan B and understanding affairs isn't enough for you to know what to do...then yes, actually write out a plan. You already know it's Plan B...but you can write out specifically what you are going to do, when you are going to do it and what you are going to do next etc... Obviously any plan is subject to alteration if the situation changes drastically...but overall, it gives you a pretty clear roadmap.

You aren't DOING anything about the A or your wife in Plan B. But you can lay out specific tasks to try to accomplish, write out things NOT to do and why, write in some time to educate yourself even further on things that might help you in whatever future relationships you may have...etc... And if you have a deadline in mind...you can write that in too.

I started to read your long thread over on JFO, but I had a bunch of work to do today and didn't get it finished. I did notice that you haven't been in Plan B very long. And it does seem that your wife reacted pretty normally at the beginning. Plan B takes a while before the WS accepts your terms. And you have to be pretty strong about your boundries. And yes...she will test them. But keeping them strong is really important.

I walked in and out of my H's life like it was still mine to do so. I hung out and played family when I felt like it and other times demanded space and such. He gave me no boundries...and it didn't help me come to any conclusions very quickly. Because I didn't feel the reality of our impending divorce.

You need to keep the space so that she can feel it...and so that you can DETACH!! Which it doesn't currently sound like you're doing.

"If you are intending for me to form a new plan, isn't that counter to plan B, where I have nothing to do with her?"

Again, I didn't realize you were in Plan B...but that IS your plan...so what you can do, if it helps you, is to get specific and actually write it out like a business plan. Like whippit said...you're a salesman. Now how are you going to become a marketable product?

"And if I have nothing to do with her, how would a new plan entice her back? Give it to me straight here, from a FWW's viewpoint. Please, at this point what would be the best thing for me to do?"

Detaching is mysterious...it causes a WS to become curious. What are they really up to? Why did son or daughter say their daddy is dressing up nice to go somewhere? How come H isn't miserable without me...son or daughter said they had a great time and did all sorts of fun things. Etc etc... At some point they won't be able to stand it and they'll break contact just to get a peek. And what will she see? A man with a new set of clothes, a cheerful attitude and seemingly no interest in her. Ooooh, that'll gettim every time!

We pursue that which is puruable...we run from that which chases us. You're going to just be playing hard to get...you are going to BE hard to get.

And if she still never gets it....too bad for her. Because now you're detached...feeling better about yourself...doing fine, and looking finer...and thinking about how many ladies have been giving you the eye lately.

You see yet??

Got it!

Thanks.

Hope I'm double posting this so you don't have to read it on the other post .. I just wanted to get your opinion .. Thank you again for all your advice and support .. with out it I think I would go crazy. I know myself and WMWB really do appreciate you taking time out of your day to help us.

As I was leaving for work on friday my WW came up to me and said have fun at work tonight.. I said "yea" kind of sarcastically .. not meaning too. She looked at me and said " no I'm serious" Then she said " I am trying" I said are you? She said yes.. then she said I'm not promissing anything.. what does that mean? How am I supposed to interpet this? She wants to try and save our marriage? I told her that I think that it's great that she wants to try .. and left for work.
Saturday - I had to goto a wedding and asked her if she wanted to come with. She said she would think about it...then she actually came I didn't think she would .. I quess her sister talked her into going. It was great to have her and the children come. She was very distant and seemed cold towards me.. She left before the dance started. She was mad at me when she left because the mother of the bride was trying to keep her there. She thought that I had something to do with it. (I didn't) I do wish she would have stayed. I can understand though why she left, She was feeling uncomfortable because it was alot of my friends there and she thinks that they all know .. they don't .. I didn't tell any of them.

I did walk out to her vehicle and help her get the children in. We talked a little .. she said she was just tired. I told her thank you for coming and gave her a kiss on the cheek (after asking if I could) she held my hand for about a min. and said good night then left.

She has ED from me and I know I'm supposed to but it is SOOOO hard too. I am trying more and more .. I don't know what to think at this point. Should I ask her what she is thinking as far as the trying goes? Should I tell her I want a no contact letter sent to OM? She says she hasn't talked with him. I don't know if it is to early for that yet. She is still on the fence as far as even wanting to work things out.

The other problem is that his Child comes over to play with my children. I have to say I don't like it but it's not fair to my children if I say they can't play with OM child. He sends food over with her once and a while. Should I tell my WW that I don't like that ? It's only food but I think he does it to make me upset.
anyway I hope that everyones weekend went good for them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ October 19, 2003, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Lost&Confussed ]</small>

Ok, I've told this story now on two different threads, this will be no. 3. I'll keep it brief.

The WW spent the whole day, and spent the night at OM's house last night. If it wasn't a PA, I'm sure it is now. This morning she came over to get the kids. Now, I've stopped meeting any of her needs. No conversation, no money, not letting her hang out at the house, ect. I got the kids up and dressed. She was getting ready to leave and she opened the fridge and grabbed a Coke. It made me angry that she was so bold as to sleep at OM's house 2 doors away then walk into my house and start acting like she lives there and everything was A-OK. We bickered about the pop, I put it back in the fridge, she took it out again, I grabbed it from her and she hit me in the back. She grabbed it out of the fridge again and opened it. I took it from her and emptied it in the sink. She hauled off and slapped me and said he hated me. I was so angry at this point that I called the police to report the battery. Cop came and took a report, told me that there wasn't enough evidence to haul her off, since it was her word against mine. I said that was fine, I just wanted a report filed.

This just seems to be getting uglier and uglier. I don't know what to do about her. She will not respect any boundaries. She thinks plan B is a joke. What do I do here?

My work week has started again and this week looks ugly...so if I'm a long time between posts I apologize.

Briefly...L&C...I want you to keep something in mind. At this time you are not in Plan B...so I would assume you are in Plan A. You want to be someone she wants to be around. So when she tells you to have a nice day, BE CHEERFUL NOT SARCASTIC!! Keep up the smiling ESPECIALLY when she tries to rain some doom and gloom down on you. All in all I think you're doing well and if you can keep things light and progressive...you might be on your way! I know the continued contact is an issue...but if you're still scoring points in her love bank...it may peter out itself. And at some point...moving might be a good idea (I mean as a couple) so that the OM is no longer an issue.

WMWB - You have bigger problems. I understand your wife isn't taking Plan B seriously...that's pretty typical. I completely understand your feelings of complete and total disrespect when she helps herself to whatever you have that she feels she wants. Still...what happend is a huge LB and in the long run...was the pop worth all that fuss?? There needs to be a neutral party to transfer the kids so that she has no cause to enter your house or be in any contact with you. She seems to have a violent temper and is not likely to be rational any time soon. She's obviously not going to voluntarily respect your boundries, so something needs to happen to make it less possible for her to do.

Can you think of some way to prevent something like that from happening again??? Maybe someone else will chime in with some ideas too.

The problem with WMWB is that he is dealing with domestic violent W who has no qualms about physically attacking him. This is totally unacceptable and he should seek a RO against her ASAP.