Ok thanks Melody <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

To be honest I think I'm losing heart in wanting to save this marriage. Sometimes I find myself thinking that perhaps I should just let him go because I have grown weary and tired of it all. I feel that I should just give up and move on, if he wants her, he can have her. If it was his marriage he really wanted, me, his family, I don't feel that he would have remained away from home for so long ~ he's been gone several months, it's a long time. I just have this gut feeling that I've lost him and he's gone for good, a gut feeling I've had since day one of him walking.

I think that the only reason I've hung on for so long and never totally lost hope, is because of the fact that in the very early months he wavered between I and OW, said he still loved me, would say he were unhappy with OW ~ these days I just do not hear those things anymore. I havn't heard an *I still love you* since July, the month he apparantly got engaged to OW and told our daughter of his plans to marry her.

Seems to me now that in the early months he kept me on the backburner and as a *safety net* incase all did happen to fail with his OW, now he's more secure and stable in his relationship with her than he was way back then, he's basically thrown me by the wayside, he has no need for me anymore.

Guess I need to have a good hard long think about what it is I really want to do, because at this point I'm not sure anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Lianne, I think you are losing heart because you have been in Plan A too long and because you are realizing that he has gone too far. You have allowed him to trample over some boundaries in the well intentioned hope that it would help bring him home. Sometimes that is necessary to a certain extent, but not to the extent where it actually condones and enables the affair and all its consequences.

Well, you are seeing that now and taking steps to change your direction.

That doesn't mean you give up hope, Lianne! His wedding talk sounds like classic WS FOG TALK that we hear around here all the time. Please don't give up hope, just take the necessary steps to move forward in a productive direction, ala Plan B!

This is far from over, so don't give up before the miracle!

Hi Lianne,
I agree with Melody, he is giving the standard lines that are said most cases. We don't know what will happen yet, so don't give up yet.

You need plan B for your sanity no matter what happens with him.

I would recommend if he asks you again if you are OK with him divorcing you and marring OW you tell him: "NO, I AM NOT OK WITH IT!! You are married to me, we have a child and you are abandoning us. That's not good, and it's not right and I will never be OK with it."

Please don't tell him that you are OK with what he is doing. It is all right to be a strong peson, and to heal emotionally, and to get over him someday if needed, but what he is doing is not OK, and he needs to understand that.

Here is a story of hope for you. Marriages can be healed and you need to know that.

Lostva's story

Go about 6 down to Lostva's big post ( there is a small one only a few down, go past that.)

Lostva did not do plan B, but I agree with Melody that if you have done a good solid plan A, you ought to go to plan B. The more contact you have with him right now, the harder it will be for YOU to come back to the marriage if that is possible later on. Plan B should always follow a really good plan A, you need to look at that.

I recommend you call the Harleys for counseling. I believe a little professional help could really do you some good right now, and give you a solid plan to follow. It would do much for your peace of mind later on. If you can't do that, listen closely to Melodylane - she is a smart gal and a good friend.

I'll be praying for you and your dauhter. I hope you are as well as you can be during this very difficult time. I encourage you to have hope and to spend this time improving your life. Are there things you want to do? Do you have goals you can work on - things that you wanted to do if your marriage was strong right now? You don't have to put your life on hold for this, you and your daughter can still live and have some happy times.

SS

<small>[ October 28, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks much, SS! Those are excellent points and I think lostva's post is so appropos. I can't believe I have never read it before, but it really sums up what we see time and time again around here. So many seemingly hopeless situations make such dramatic turns.

Melody, you are so right, I have been in PlanA for way too long. Thing is, I was happy being in PlanA and would have most likely continued in PlanA for a long time to come, because things seemed to be going pretty well in PlanA and especially over this past couple of months in which I'd noticed some big improvements and changes.

I had noticed this past couple of months, how H had seemed to have drawn closer and communication between us was increasing, particularly by way of phone calls. We would talk, laugh and joke in these calls, I would recognise the old H in them.
He had really seemed to have softened towards me. Not that he's ever been nasty to me since he left, but in the beginning he had been a little cold towards me, we had been like strangers when in each others presence ~ this is now not the case.

When he first left me, we hardly ever had any contact other than when H would bring child support and call to collect our daughter. But of late he has even stopped by my home once or twice unnannounced too, something that he has never done throughout the several months we've been apart. We really did seem to be drawing closer and things were appearing to be looking up, then I go and hear that he plans on marrying her and suddenly I feel like the worlds biggest fool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

If I go into PlanB I just hope I'm doing the right thing and that it won't push him away or push him even closer to marrying her.

SS, Lostvas thread is very encouraging, thanks for sending it over <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lostva continued in PlanA though, even though her H was telling her he didn't love her and he was going to marry another woman.

I'm thinking now, should I have continued in PlanA even though I've heard my H is set to marry his OW, because I dunno, PlanA seemed to be working for me, at least I'd thought it was and I was happy while in it. Maybe I shouldn't have given up hope so easily and continued to PlanA my butt off?? Then again I'm not sure that I would have the heart to carry on PlanA'ing in the knowledge he may ask for a D at any moment. I'm soooo confused.

I do intend telling him that NO!! I am not happy with the fact he is thinking of marrying OW, when and if we have contact again. The only reason why I had said I didn't have a problem with it when he'd asked if there was a problem, was because I'd heard OW in the background talking, so she was there when I made that call. I know for a fact that as soon as I'd put down the phone, H would've told her what I was calling for, to ask if he was marrying her and that I had no problem with it. I didn't want to say yes I did have a problem with it, while she was there and give her any more reason to gloat, more than she probably already is.

And thanks for all your help and advice Melody and all....sure glad there is someone listening to me whine and whinge.....LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lianne, my vote is NO in continuing Plan A. It has served its purpose in your case and is now jeopardizing your progress.

Lostva continued Plan A for as long as she did because he had cut off contact so she had no chance to demonstrate her changes. You, on the other hand, have essentially been in such an active Plan A that it has enabled him to sit on the fence longer. You have already demonstrated your best side to him and need to go no further.

You are also in serious danger right now of losing your love for him because this has dragged on so long. And the longer it drags on, the closer he gets to the OW. Its time to pull him off the fence TOWARDS YOU.

The worst that can happen is that you get some much needed peace of mind from not having the affair rubbed in your nose every day. One can only tolerate that abuse for so long. And at best, he will FINALLY have a motivation to come off the fence when he no longer has you as an obstacle from seeing the flaws in his relationship with the OW.

There are two plans, and after doing a good plan A and seeing no results it is time for plan B. Used together these plans give the best chance I have seen to restore a marriage.

You say you are confused, but Melody is right, we worry about you. This may or may not help him RIGHT NOW, but it will help you and keep you from going a little while longer in plan A and burning out and giving up.

Make it hard for him to talk to you, and see you. Let him know for sure you are not OK with what he is doing. Leave him to think about it.

SS

Melody and SS, THANKS!! Your advice is great and I'm so thankful I have two of the best advisors here at MB on my thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know now that it would have been totally impossible for me to have continued in PlanA, I'd have ended up hating him.

I'm feeling a lot better now than I did when I first posted this thread btw. When I'm not seeing or hearing his voice, things are good, I feel fine ~ however if I were to see him, hear him, I'd backslide and so I intend to keep ignoring his phone calls to avoid this. I recieved one this morning and one yesterday morning from him, again they went ignored.

PlanB letter I intend sending by post. Sooner or later there will be our daughter to discuss and the fact that I am disallowing him to take her to OW's anymore, at least until a court order allows it. He won't be very happy!! I feel this is one way in which I've been enabling his affair, as you said Melody.

NC for nearly a week!! I'm proud of myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi Lianne, I have to say you sound calmer than usual today and it really comes through in your post. You are doing great! I would only suggest that you write the Plan B letter and get it out as soon as possible, in the "post." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think it's important that he understands that this isn't a hide and seek game, but a move to take back control of your life. Your life, up until now, has revolved around him. He needs to understand that you are now in charge and what the price will be if he wants to join *YOUR* parade.

The Plan B letter should also include the housekeeping arrangements for your D, namely where and when the transfer will take place for visitation exchanges, and the stipulation that she cannot be exposed to the OW because it is unseemly for a child. You might want to also throw in there that he can contact you only in the event of an emergency, otherwise any communication is to be limited to email and *only* about your daughter or financial matters.

Outside of that, you will only resume communication once he has rid himself of the OW and is living in seperate quarters. Those are the conditions to just RESUME talks with you.

Others here are much more experienced at Plan B letters than I, so I hope they will chime in here and give you some tips, especially about the basic OUTLINE of the letter. You might also want to do a search, Lianne, and read some of the other Plan B letters to get ideas. I do hope that you keep it fairly short and sweet, I think overly sentimental, long Plan B novels are a bit too much, especially to a detached WS.

Are you in the UK? Some of your words and terms sound English! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

LOL, yes I'm in England, UK, that is why I can't go and seek Steve Harley out for counselling ~ we have no MB over here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I've a feeling that things could get nasty once I tell H that he can't take our daughter to OW's anymore and that he will have to make alt arrangements as to where he sees her. He has been taking her there for several months and will wonder why all of a sudden I am up in arms against him doing so and will simply think I am being awkward and trying to make it difficult for him to see her, because I'm annoyed at hearing that he may be marrying her. He may also begin to withold child support from me, he has done this before when he hasn't seen our D. It seems that I have to dance to his tune, or else he will deprive me of support.

Easily remedied though because if he does get awkward, then I wil simply head for the CSA (Child Support Agency). This is something I don't particularly want to do, but he will leave me no option but to do this and he will have to pay double the amount of child support that I am recieving now.

There have been no calls from him for a couple of days now.

Lianne,
This is going to be a difficult thing. If you can think of a way for him to accept it more easily, then do that. If not, you need to go ahead the hard way. Divorce will be much more difficult if it comes to that.

You don't have to go into detail about why you feel daughter should no longer go to OW's. Just come up with a short statement as part of the letter.
"After thinking about it for quite some time, and feeling that it is too hard on D, I feel I must insist that she no longer go to OW's home with you beginning immeadatly. "

Here are links to plan B. I hope some of it is useful to you.

NSR's links to info about plan A and B

Please know that we understand the hard parts, and the painful parts. We know it is his fault, and that you have to deal with it, but we want you to succeed. It would be hard to council with the Harleys from the UK. Melody is good though, at least you have her help.

May you have a more pleasent weekend this time around.

SS

ok, I have a stupid question, but do 800 #s not work in the UK? I was not aware of that!

Lianne, I think stillseeking's suggestion is a good one in regards to mentioning your daughter in the letter. You want it to be as subtle as possible in your letter because that letter is what he will hang onto in the next few weeks.

However, if push comes to shove, you are right; you will have to go to CSA or do whatever it takes to protect your daughter. She should in no way be exposed to this unseemly, scandalous situation. Hopefully, it won't be ugly. But I am just amazed here at the lengths to which he has gone to make his sleazy affair seem like a good thing. Your daughter can't be exposed to that and since he doesn't know any better, its up to you to protect her.

Have you started on the letter? When do you plan on sending it?

I am just amazed here at the lengths to which he has gone to make his sleazy affair seem like a good thing.

And this is why I honestly think I'm wasting my time with him, I should just let him go. The man is totally and utterly besotted with this woman, likewise she appears to be with him. He just does not seem to think he has done anything wrong, has continued to justify this affair since leaving and has tried his hardest to get me to accept and give approval of this affair and I suspect that while perhaps the majority of affairs do end and die a natural death, my H's affair is unfortunately going to be a percentage of those that do not end, a percentage of those that do survive and lead to eventual marriage. Guess I was just one of unlucky ones <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

My marriage was probably dead and buried before he even left me, before he even met OW.

As you can see, I'm having second thoughts again over what to do ~ to PlanB or to just let him go.
I don't want to end up looking a fool by sending this PlanB letter and letting them both know that I still love H and would consider reconcilling, when H might be thinking that after several months it should be pretty obvious to me that he isn't coming home now and that he doesn't/has no intentions of reconcilling.....he will maybe think I'm a fool and OW knowing that I still love H, that I still after all this time would take him back.........well....she is only going to push further for marriage to ensure she gets her claws deeper into him. OW in my sitch is a vindictive piece of work....

I honestly think that all of H's sweet talking over this past several months, was due to his wanting to keep me as a *safety net*, incase all failed with OW. Now they are engaged to be married (with the exchange of watches <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ) and are talking of marriage, H no longer needs a *safety net*....

I also think that H has kept me sweet this past few months, so that I continue to allow our daughter to go to his and OW's. He has kept me sweet simply to ensure that things go according to his way of liking. None of it has had anything to do with the fact that he may be still confused as to what he really wants, it's pretty obvious what he wants ~ the OW along with my acceptance and approval. I'm of the impression that when H has seen me happy and sees me happy, he is happy also, happy in what he has done for his guilt is greatly eased. I PlanA'd for way too long I feel.
I no more than helped him through his transistion period from the life he shared with me to the life he now has with OW and I made that transistion easy for him by continuing to be there for him and remain his friend throughout it.


I think if anything, my PlanB will only serve to drive him further away and even further into the arms of OW. I doubt it is going to pull him towards me. If he has no love, no feelings left for me, which I honestly don't think he does anymore, then all PlanB is going to achieve is perhaps making the pain of going through the divorce easier for me. If H had had any ounce of feeling for me, he'd have been home long since.

But anyway, H has not arrived nor called in regard to child support, I have recieved nothing from him. Because I have been ignoring the phone when he's called, he will know that I am unhappy over hearing he is marrying her, (hence why OW will push further for marriage) and he will be thinking that I am playing awkward with him ~ so of course he has decided to withold child support and has distanced from me.

I think in my sitch it is going to be *out of sight, out of mind* for H and not *absence makes the heart grow fonder*

The only thing he will be missing is his daughter and he may try to get in contact merely for fear of losing her and to sweet talk me back into letting her go to OW's so that he still has contact with her and be allowed to play *happy families* at their shack up.

Sorry for babbling anyway, just sometimes like to get things off my chest and as I said, I'm not sure yet again what to do anymore. But I am still taking all advice in, as tomorrow morning I could have another change of heart again and decide to go ahead.

<small>[ November 01, 2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

Lianne~

You are assuming waaaaaaaaaaay too much about what your husband is feeling.

Everyone keeps telling you that he's feeding you the classic WS lines, and that those things do NOT mean its over and you keep responding by telling us that THIS case is special and different and you KNOW its over because of (insert any of 023840293842308 classic boring old WS antics and lines).

This is why plan B is good for YOU. Plan B means you don't have to be involved in what your WS is doing or not doing or feeling or whatever.

Sweetie, my husband was gone 18 months - and he left to start a new life over with his OW. They planned to get married - I read numerous emails about their search for a home, I read about all their vacations and cruises and all the details about sitting down with a bottle of wine after work to plan "their" finances. She even dragged him to a lawyer to file for divorce. During this time she was the most incredible wonderful woman and she made him feel alive....

That was in 2000. Here we are at the end of 2003 and my husband will tell you TODAY that he loves me, and that his OW was totally insane. He will readily admit that she was a HUGE stupid mistake. And that he was totally stupid to think that she was anything special.

Just stop making assumptions about ANYTHING to do with your husband. The ONLY thing you know about is inside your own heart and head. The rest of it is conjecture that is getting you into alot of trouble.

If my husband made it back to me and our family...so can yours.

Melodylane is totally right. Plan B is certainly called for. Plan A will just drag out the agony, AND (IMHO) probably ensure your divorce.

Lianne, you have thrown the towel in here for no good reason. This is FAR FROM OVER if you want my opinion. You have not lost your H. Plan A is only the FIRST STEP. He is just saying the things we have heard here a MILLION TIMES from a fogged out WS. And then they COME BACK when Plan B is initiated.

And sure, you don't want him as he is now, but wouldn't you consider taking him back if he woke up, ended the affair and showed some remorse? Why would you forfeit that chance? Do you really want to forfeit that chance or do you just feel hopeless?

A Plan B letter is not a surrender, it is a letter stating basically that you are IN CHARGE NOW. This is now Lianne's parade. And if he wants to march correctly, you love him enough to consider allowing him in your parade. It shows him the path back to the fold. And if he doesn't take that special path, then he doesn't come back.

But one way or the other, I would contact him and arrange visitations. Otherwise, he might contact an attorney and this situation will quickly escalate into a divorce scenario even though he hadn't planned such a thing.

Also while I'm around and to give you a bigger impression of the whole picture, I have to say that although I did a fairly good PlanA, it was far from being a brilliant PlanA. Here is why I feel I didn't do a good PlanA.....

Shortly after H left, he was in control of the situation as most WS's are. I gave into H's every whim, allowed him to take our daughter to OW's, gave him items from our home, borrowed him money if he asked, etc, etc....because back then I was afraid of losing him!!! I was afraid that if I didn't let our D go to OW's, if I stopped taking our daughter to see him, (he didn't come to the home to collect her in the first five months of him leaving)....then H would turn his back on our daughter. I was also afraid that he would not give me child support to support our daughter. I was afraid he would simply abandon us.

Over time I began to resent the fact that he held all of the cards and that I was dancing to his tune constantly and this resentment began to grow ~ until one day and a few months after he left, I decided that I wasn't going to take anymore of his crap and I began standing up to him......I grew a BACKBONE!!!!!

I first realised that I had grown this backbone, when I called him one day to let him know that if he wanted to see his daughter anymore, then he would now have to make an effort to come and collect her from my home, as opposed to my being his taxi and taking our daughter to see him. I'd also told him in this phonecall, that I didn't want anymore contact with him, that I wanted out of his sick life and this love triangle. I'd then put down the phone and it felt great that I had at last stood up to him!! Four hours after making this call, he called me back. He told me that he missed me, he still loved me, loved me more than OW, how he was afraid to come back to the home because he was afraid that he wouldn't want to leave me and our daughter again....blah, blah, blah....He also said that he didn't trust himself around me, didn't trust himself not to kiss me or hold me. It was after he'd said all this, that I'd told him I still loved him, that I hated the fact we were strangers....in short I was still giving him reassurances that I was still here for him. And so I caved, let H continue to have his own way and take our D to OW's, even though I had remained adamant that he still begin to collect our D from ny home, which three weeks later he began doing so.

It was after this episode though, where I had seemed to get H's attention in standing up to him, that I realised that I could turn this situation around to my advantage. Rather than have him control me, I could be in control.....and so I began doing more of what seemed to be grabbing H's attention, doing more of what seemly made him pursue him. And sometimes I would LB deliberately to get H's attention and to have him pursue me. Surprisingly, all of what I was doing was seemly bringing I and H closer, or so I'd thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Suddenly it seemed that if I expressed a dislike of something H said or did, if I slammed down the phone on him, he would go out of his way to make me happy again, he would pursue like crazy to get things back to his way of liking again and to see me happy. When I realised that H had seemed to have taken all the control again...BANG!! I would quickly turn it around by LB'ing again and I was in control again. By LB'ing I don't mean throwing temper tantrums or showing raging anger, I just used to merely and always hang up on him on the phone to show I was unhappy with something. That was enough to send him scurrying back in my direction again.

For instance, he'd been promising me for weeks that I could have his car because he was buying a new one and I had lost my transport. When he failed to show up with this car when he promised, I'd told him not to come back until he had the car with him and I hung up the phone. The very next day he arrived with the car.....this happened only two weeks ago.

There was also another occasion when he'd called and I'd told him that while he remain with OW, then he was no part of my life. Next day he was back on the phone, the chase was on again.

And so it is because of my turning the sitch around to my being in control, that I would kinda LB deliberately to have H dancing to my tune, that I feel my PlanA was not very good and the whole thing has now backfired on me.

I think that H has now grown tired of me and feeling like he has to give in to my every whim to keep me happy and so PlanB will more than likely come to him as a welcome relief <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sorry this is so long, but I just wanted to give readers an insight into the bigger picture and what exactly has been going on.

<small>[ November 01, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you can see, I'm having second thoughts again over what to do ~ to PlanB or to just let him go.
I don't want to end up looking a fool by sending this PlanB letter and letting them both know that I still love H and would consider reconcilling, when H might be thinking that after several months it should be pretty obvious to me that he isn't coming home now and that he doesn't/has no intentions of reconcilling.....he will maybe think I'm a fool and OW knowing that I still love H, that I still after all this time would take him back.........well....she is only going to push further for marriage to ensure she gets her claws deeper into him. OW in my sitch is a vindictive piece of work....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, here is just some food for thought. You might not want to take him back. Plan B does not preclude that option. With Plan B you have these possible results: reconcilation and your withdrawal from him. It will be much easier to move to D if you are detached from him. You will be thinking clearly and can move forward with a clear head.

This also leaves open the possibility of reconcilation. Who knows, we have seen seemingly impossible situations come to, not only, reconciliation but very fruitful marriages.

My point is that with Plan B you don't forfeit your option of divorce, you just give yourself a little more time to think about it. If you move to D now, you pretty much forfeit any chance of reconcilation. With Plan B, you forfeit nothing. See what I mean?

Lianne, those don't sound like major lovebusters to me. Most of it is just boundary setting, and if anything, it seemed to attract him and make him pursue you even more. You will have to decide what you want to do, but I strongly think that your marriage is ripe for Plan B, which leaves your options open. It lays down the conditions in which you will consider talking to him again. He needs to know your conditions.

Either way, I think it is dangerous to leave him hanging like this without doing anything. If you don't do anything, HE WILL. And if he does, it will be on his terms, not yours. The beauty of Plan B is that you set the terms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lianne37:
<strong>

There was also another occasion when he'd called and I'd told him that while he remain with OW, then he was no part of my life. Next day he was back on the phone, the chase was on again.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lianne, this makes it so clear to me that he is in no way finished with your marriage and continutes to need you. If you continue to talk to him he can maintain his affair because he has you in the wings. And if you move to D, you just make the decision for a previously undecided man. You essentially FORCE him to choose the OW by ending it all prematurely.