OK, I think I goofed, but can it be excused because he hasn't recieved the PlanB letter yet, so I'm not really considered to be in PlanB yet really? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

All over the weekend H didn't contact me, I recieved no child support. Not surprising because I had told him "Goodbye forever" on the phone the week before, so I'd left him wondering what the heck was going on, where did he go from here, etc, etc....while probably throwing him at the same time, further into OW's direction, when I should be pulling him toward mine.

So I decided to call him on the phone and enquire about the support ~ yeah, I know I shouldn't have, but I am dependant upon this money and he knows it, that is why he witholds it if we aren't playing by his rules, to spite me. I never as a rule initiate calls at all, but when he's witholding money it gives me no option <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

He said that he wasn't about to give me child support if he wasn't seeing his daughter and I took this opportunity to let him know that I had not stopped him from seeing our daughter, he could see his daughter, but under no circumstances was he to ever take her to OW's again as he has done the past several months. I let him know that it hurts both I and our daughter to have his sordid affair rubbed continuously in our faces and that I won't allow him to continue doing so. He agreed that he wouldn't take her to OW's anymore!! I nearly choked on the reciever..GREAT NEWS!!!

Then I asked of his forthcoming marriage, asked him if he was going to D me? There was silence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> and then he blurted out that marriage had been discussed between him and OW, but there was nothing definite. I asked him then, why did you tell our daughter, OUR CHILD, who sees us together as being husband and wife, that you were marrying this woman while still married to her mother and he said he was sorry for doing so, he should not have said anything. I told him EXACTLY!! she is your child, your daughter, not an adult......yes H you should have had more sense and this is the kinda crap that I want to protect our daughter from, someone has to protect her. I let him know that I was unhappy with his talk that marrying OW will mean divorce for us ~ again he'd said there was nothing definite.

I dunno, just felt like I had to put him straight on a few things before I go to a definite PlanB and Melody you did mention calling him in regard to our daughter before he headed off to a solicitors and did things his way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I ended in telling him that he will be recieving something very shortly in the post, which unbeknown to him until he recieves it, is PlanB letter.

I would not count on him to keep any promises. He's in the fog, remember? It's nice that he promised, but believing it will just set you up for more anger and disappointment.

Another thing: You keep saying that this or that action is going to throw him into OW's arms. Don't worry about it. Anything you do is going to throw him into OW's arms. Let it happen. Start looking at the long-term picture.

You can't let them tie your hands like that. I always say, try to thing of your WS like a psychiatric patient, not like a reasonable person. You don't expect them to be rational, to keep their word, to be reliable, etc. You deal with them very gently, firmly, with a larger picture in mind then you expect them to be able to hold. Treat them like children. While they are in the selfish grip of A, they might as well be.

<small>[ November 03, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

<small>[ November 03, 2003, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

Well he did say that rather than have our daughter on a Sunday as he always has done since leaving, he would now most likely collect her on a Saturday when OW was at work. But he had also said that because he now wasn't taking our daughter in OW's presence, he'd have to now fit visitation in with his schedule. WTF!!! In other words he was saying that time with OW, is more important than time spent with our daughter.

Now what disturbs me is, this man claims to love his daughter dearly. She is at the moment, his only child and he doted on her while at home and declares he still does. I've had him sobbing on the phone numerous times when he hasn't seen her for some reason or other and he says it kills him not to see her......

......yet here we have him saying that he will fit her in with his schedule !!! You'd think he would jump at the chance to have his daughter at every opportunity he got, if he loved her as much as he says he does.

This is a man who lives in the same town as we do also. Now if he missed his daughter and wanted to see her as badly as he claims, then why doesn't he pass by our house in the car in the hopes of seeing her? I know that is something I would do if I were desperate to see my child. Why does he never call her on her mobile phone to say "hi" to her? Why does he never ask how she is doing at school, or show any interest in our daughters events at school?

Does he sound a doting father? Far from it. So why does he make such a fuss about seeing her?

This all really puzzles me.

Anne Marie, I see what you mean about throwing him into OW's arms, if I keep up this kinda of contact......this is the last time though, it's now off to PlanB.

Lianne,

I am very proud of you for addressing the pertinent issues above but have a 2X4 with your name on it for all those lovebusters!! Holy Moly! I hope you didn't say all this stuff to your H, especially the stuff in your last post because it is chock full of lovebusters. The idea is to leave him with a GOOD impression when you go dark in Plan B, not a bad impression.

Please work out a schedule with him for your daughter and don't concern yourself how he arranges it.

You can't do a thing about it and saying it is HUGE LOVEBUSTER. Just help him work out the schedule and work out a system where you don't have to see or talk to him. Maybe communicate through email if necessary.

I would also stop making contact contingent on child support - BOTH WAYS. She needs to see her dad regardless of his payments and he needs to make payments regardless of whether he sees her or not. There seems to be a pay for visitation system going on here that is very manipulative and counterproductive.

There seems to be a pay for visitation system going on here that is very manipulative and counterproductive.

Exactly Melody, that is what is going on, or what was going on ~ a *pay for visitation* system. He will only pay child support if he knows for sure he will be seeing his daughter, if he isn't sure of seeing her/doesn't see her, then he witholds money.

In the beginning he knew that I was heavily dependant on this child support and because he knew I was, he used money as a means to call all of the shots and have his own way. So it left me with little option but to go along with everything he said and wanted, because I was dependant upon him for money. This is one of the reasons as to why our daughter ended up going to OW's. If I hadn't let her go, he'd have stopped the child support.

I suppose that I could easily have remedied this by simply going to CSA, ensuring he did have to pay and that our daughter wasn't being exposed to OW, but I didn't particularly want to go down that road. I thought it would be a huge LB on my part.

He'd mentioned that he wasn't sure if he could see our daughter this weekend because he was at work. So I'd said to H, "Does this mean that I will be recieving no child support this weekend"?
He'd said he didn't know but that he'd try his hardest to send something. To me that is not good enough. He should always pay, whether he sees her or not. I'd told him that Christmas was just around the corner and that there were things I would like to buy for our daughter. He'd told me not to worry, our daughter wouldn't be going without anything. So I guess we will have to see what happens from here.

I'm amazed that he has said that he will no longer take our daughter to OW's, but I do have a feeling that he will try to change my mind again and allow her around OW. I'm not backing down though.

As for things I said in my last post, no I didn't mention any of that to him, those are just thoughts I am thinking. However I did tell him everything I said in my first post and much more besides <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I was telling him home truths if anything......probably did LB a little when I was talking to him, but don't think I did any real harm. He seems to respect me more when I stand up to him anyway and telling him EXACTLY what I am thinking seems to have attracted him to me in the past. Well, it's either attracted him or he's simply felt that he had pursue me to sweeten me up in order to try and get his own way again. I had said to him ....

"While you are up there Christmas Day with OW, watching another mans child open his Christmas presents, I hope that you are reminded of your OWN CHILD sitting here Christmas Day with very little".

Was that an LB? I know it would have aroused guilt.

This is when he'd said our daughter would not go without and that he had Christmas presents for her that he would bring along.

<small>[ November 04, 2003, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

OK, visitation schedule. H will collect our daughter on Saturdays. He can still continue to collect her from my home however, but I will ensure that he knows he wait in the car for her coming out to him. I will not be present when he arrives, nor when he returns her.

H has a habit of breaking boundaries though, as I've told him to wait in the car before and he abides by this a couple of times, then he ends up knocking or just walking in, making up some excuse to see me. I will have to make it clear that he doesn't do this now.

In regard to child support. H has said that from now on, he will pass on child support to me through our daughter, which he will give to her to hand to me, when he returns her from visitation. In short that still means that if he doesn't see her, then I don't recieve child support.

Communication is impossible by email, he doesn't have a computer. So long as visitation and child support are worked out though, I see no reason at all to communicate with him, other than if it is an emergency.

Well....so much for PlanB, at least the PlanB I'm in anyway.

I have neither heard from H (I called him) since last Monday ~ I have had no face to face contact with him for three weeks ~ H hasn't seen his daughter for five weeks ~ I have recieved no child support for two weeks!! After telling me that he'd bring it along this week, he has failed to show up or even call me on the phone.

Since I heard of his plans to marry OW, he has totally and utterly withdrawn. He will have recieved PlanB letter by now, again no word.

It would seem that he doesn't miss me, doesn't miss his daughter and he is basically taking the pi** in regards to paying child support. In short, he appears not to give a damn, which I knew all along anyway...With PlanB and NC, I feel I've given him the ideal opportunity and excuse to act in the way he is doing and it's pushing him away further to OW obviously.

Sorry for venting, but if I don't vent here, then I will be tempted to call him and blast his [censored], or OW'S, or worse!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

oh dear, don't you dare call over there! You don't have the slightest idea what is going on with him. Did you send your Plan B lettter? What did you say in it?

Plan B does not guarantee an overnight return of your spouse! You have to cool your jets and start focusing on yourself. About missing his visitation, give it a few days and see if he calls. One of the reasons he hasn't seen her in 5 weeks is because you wouldn't talk to him in all that time. If he doesn't pay child support, you can go to CSA.

Either way, Lianne, Plan B was the right thing to do. Your Plan A didn't acheive anything and was leaving your H on the fence and exposing your daughter. Please try and remember the reasons we talked about before. That does not mean that your H is going to get the Plan B letter and overnight become a loving, remorseful H.

What did you say in your Plan B letter?

Melody, it's only been two weeks since I found out H was marrying OW that I went NC and stopped speaking to him. So the three weeks before this he could have easily still had visitation, likewise he could have taken the opportunity to see our D yesterday when he finished work at 12 noon ~ he did not. He more than likely went and sat in the local bar instead awaiting OW finishing work!! The trouble is, is that OW and he do not seem to like being out of each others sights unless they are at work, (I get the impression they just don't trust each other.....LOL), so he will more than likely be finding it hard now to fit in visitation where he can be alone with our daughter, without OW being present ~ she is always in his face!!. If he is genuinely concerned about seeing his D though, he would find a way of seeing her.

Anyway I didn't call him.....lol, thankfully!! I was just starting to feel a little wound up and hurt that he doesn't seem at all interested in seeing our daughter and over the fact that he hasn't paid child support again. Like you said, I don't know at all what H may be thinking at this present moment, but judging by what I know of him of the past ten years, he will basically be carrying on with his life, probably trying to put the past behind him and he probably doesn't even spare a thought to the family he left behind now.

He's been gone eight months, he long went through the withdrawal symptoms that come with not having anyone in your life anymore....so I doubt he will be suffering withdrawal from us now. He is over it....

PlanB letter ~ well I kept it short. Basically I said that I still loved him, that as long as he remain with OW then there is no chance of reconciliation and so I was moving on. Then I basically laid out instructions as to how he can contact me from now on along with visitation info.
I grabbed snippets from other PlanB letters to help me.

LOL!! Yeah, I know two weeks isn't a long time, but it seems a long time. Plus, in all the time H has been gone, (eight months), two weeks is the longest period that we've had NC at all, so I feel I'm doing well. I feel fine anyway and am getting on with my own life:)

I went NC three weeks ago, sent PlanB letter two weeks ago........in that time, there has been NC at all. I've heard zilch from him, he has heard zilch from me, although I was tempted to call him today because I feel he is deliberately witholding child support from me, because I am no longer allowing him to have visitation with our daughter at OW's home. But I didn't!!! Seems I will have no choice but to pay CSA a visit shortly, something I desperately wanted to avoid doing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

All in all:

Two weeks since last telephone conversation.
Three weeks since I recieved child support.
Four weeks since last face to face contact.
Seven weeks since he last saw daughter.

.....all this from a WS who wavered constantly between I and OW for the five months of him leaving and a WS who claimed all along that nothing and no one would ever stand between him and his child. Seems he's well and truly made his final choice, he even seems to have cut ties with his only child, since I instructed he take her to OW's no longer. I made it plain that he could still have visitation and take our daughter when and wherever he chose too, other than OW's ~ seems it isn't good enough for him, he chooses obviously not to see her himself.

Melody, are you around? Is this usual behaviour from a WS when the LBS decides to go into PlanB, or may I have to start and face the fact that he may just possibly be in love with this woman and we have been abandoned like last weeks trash?

Oh and I forgot to mention I had my hair done two days ago and have lost another half a stone since NC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> hahaha.

Am doing really well regardless <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ November 15, 2003, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

Hi Lianne! WS's are usually pretty angry at first when they realize the BS is refusing to let them have their cake and eat it too. You are now calling shots and he doesn't like that.

I would suspect he's playing a game, hoping you will cave into his wishes and call him up and relent in your resolve to protect D from this situation. It is too bad that he has chosen to not see your daughter if he can't see her with the OW, but that is his choice. Your responsibility is to protect her from his sleaze.

In the meantime, please do go to CSA and file for your child support. That will be a much needed wake up call for your H.

And don't worry about what is happening with him. There are no guarantees in Plan B, but he is now forced to get ALL his needs met in ONE place and it will become apparent that the OW is ill equipped to meet his needs. He will also have to realize now what he stands to lose. He is not seeing his daughter and no longer has you for his phone "friend." He's there all alone with the OW now. Most affairs die a quick death and this will only hasten its death.

The WORST thing that can happen, Lianne, is that you will be completely detached from him IF you have to move to divorce. So, Plan B is positive no matter what happens. Hopefully, that won't happen. But just hang in there and be patient, ok? You will be just fine!

<small>[ November 15, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Thanks so much Melody, I love your advice. This latest piece you wrote spurs me on to keep going !! Wish I was as clued up into the workings of a WS's mind as you are <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes, I suspect H is pretty angry right now because he sees that I am calling the shots and am the one in control. There was a time when he would have called me on the phone to sweet talk me in the hopes I'd lose my resolve (which I normally did), however now he is aware that I know he may D me and marry OW, he will be thinking it a waste of time to even try and sweet talk me.....LOL. He knows I won't back down ever again now because of this. He will know that PlanB letter is serious and no joke.

And so he has devised a game as a last attempt to regain control. A game in which he has decided to deliberately withold child support from me, (he knows how dependant upon this money I am), in the hopes that in my desperation for it and especially now that Christmas is around the corner, I am going to call him and enquire about why he is witholding it. This would then give him the perfect opportunity to ask again if he can take our D to the OW's and he would probably think I will cave and give in because I need this money. But it aint gonna happen, I refuse to play his game, I have no intentions of calling him ~ of going grovelling to him for money!

He is more than likely wondering why I have not called in regard to child support, for he will have been so sure that this is what I would do because it's something I've always done so before. He may be starting to worry that his game is not according to his plan. But this game could go on forever though because he is stubborn, however when he recieves CSA feedback, he will know the game is over.

Also there is something else. When H left, he left a number of outstanding debts behind at this address. Yep, he wasn't noted for paying bills on time, a big fault of his. These debt letters are still arriving.......should I forward them to H and OW's home address and make the companies he owes money too aware of his new address? I know he won't be too happy if I do this, but then what have I got to lose?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lianne37:
<strong>
Also there is something else. When H left, he left a number of outstanding debts behind at this address. Yep, he wasn't noted for paying bills on time, a big fault of his. These debt letters are still arriving.......should I forward them to H and OW's home address and make the companies he owes money too aware of his new address? I know he won't be too happy if I do this, but then what have I got to lose? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely! Not only should you forward them, but I would give any debt collection callers his new phone, address, etc. Let them start calling over there and puncture the balloon of his little fantasy. That will give him a much needed wake up call. Just don't send a nasty letter with his bills. Send a very nice note saying something like "hope you are doing well. i am forwarding your bills and have notified your creditors of your new address. Take care, XXX.

Lianne, I think many of the things you are doing right now are helping to alleviate the fantasy nature of his affair. Up until now, he has had it good: your friendship, his daughter, protection from all those ugly bills. This can only help in shining the light of day on his affair and helping it come to an end. You are doing great!

Thanks Melody <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He leaves me no choice but to go to CSA and I know that he should be made to be responsible for the debt he left behind....but I dunno, all of this will upset the applecart a lot and he may end up resenting and even hating me for what I'm about to do. No doubt I will be all of the names under the sun! Rather than this be a wake up call, it may all in fact backfire on me, which I think it will. I'm unlikely ever to see him again after I do all of this and D will be imminent. Isn't it likely that I'll push him further away? But then can he be pushed any further away than he already appears to be.

These debts don't amount to a lot anyway. There are around five of them and for small amounts of money.....but still, I doubt he will like these companies going knocking at his shack up.

He will look upon all of the good things he's done for me since he left for OW you see, like for instance when he gave me his car a few weeks back because he'd said I needed a new one and he will no more than look upon it all as being *dirty tricks* on my part and that I am being spiteful toward him now because I know he may be marrying her. I feel really guilty about doing all of this because he has been soooooo nice all along, used to promise he'd always be there for us, if we needed anything just call him. Even when we were last talking on the phone, he seemed fine and told me not to worry about Christmas, for our daughter he said, would not be going without anything she wasn't used to having. And then nothing......no calls, no visits.....no nothing ?? It just seems strange.

So I've been thinking. Perhaps I should give him a little more time to get in touch, say a week from today. If I don't hear anything by then, then it will be a month since I've recieved child support and three weeks since I heard from him. If no word, then I will go to CSA and prepare to have these debts sent onto him, Monday 24th November. I feel I ought to give him a chance as it has only been two weeks since we spoke and another week won't hurt I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lianne37:
<strong> Thanks Melody <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He leaves me no choice but to go to CSA and I know that he should be made to be responsible for the debt he left behind....but I dunno, all of this will upset the applecart a lot and he may end up resenting and even hating me for what I'm about to do. No doubt I will be all of the names under the sun! Rather than this be a wake up call, it may all in fact backfire on me, which I think it will. I'm unlikely ever to see him again after I do all of this and D will be imminent. Isn't it likely that I'll push him further away? But then can he be pushed any further away than he already appears to be.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lianne, no. What your actions do is shine some painful reality on his affair and hasten its death. It is a short term lovebuster for a long term gain.

Even so, your daughter's welfare comes FIRST and getting child support is your first priority despite how mad that makes him. He has to understand that he does have obligations and there are CONSEQUENCES to his actions. By NOT doing this, you are simply aiding and abetting him by protecting him from the consequences of his actions. Stop enabling him, Lianne!

If you think a week might make difference, I am all for it. However, you can't put this off much longer. I suspect he is holding out in the hopes you will cave to his wishes. He will not like it and you can't expect him to like it. You are taking away his cake. But again, facing the consequences of his actions often hastens the end of bad behavior.

Well see I'm thinking Melody, that despite his stubborness, he may be the one to cave first and phone in regard to child support/his daughter because he is not seeing her and I do think that he will be missing her a lot. His first words when I called him last were "I want to see my daughter", so he does care for her, even though his actions would seem to prove otherwise.

He has far more to lose than I do and he will know that. He's just hanging out in the hopes I will be the one to cave ~ but when he realises I aint going too, then he may feel he hasn't a choice but to get in touch, especially if he still wants to maintain contact with his daughter. I highly doubt and would be very surprised, if he let's the Christmas season pass without wanting to see her/give her presents. But Christmas is still 5/6 weeks away.

But then I'm looking at it this way. This would be 5/6 weeks, in which he has to live with the guilt of what he is doing. The guilt of deliberately witholding child support from me and that because of this, he is depriving his daughter ~ and NOT ME. I've told him umpteen times that when he witholds money, it is our daughter who suffers and goes without and not me, because every penny is always spent on HER.....and not me and he knows this.

So I'm wondering what would be best? To make him stew for 5/6 weeks longer in the guilt of what he is doing, or give it another week and go to CSA. In going to CSA and once he finds out I've been there, it may give him the perfect excuse to feel justified that he has witheld support.......at the moment he has no reason to feel justified in doing what he is doing, other than for his own selfish reasons.

What do you think?

Lianne, I think it only allows him to play cruel games like this with you and your daughter's lives. Maybe feels a little guilt, but he can probably live with that. And the guilt is easily eliminated by calling you and seeing his daughter. NO CONSEQUENCES.

There are no consequences to his actions. He is living in a fantasy world where there are no consequences to his actions because he is in a FOG. Having to face the CSA will wake him up.

He has also proved to be unreliable in paying his child support and is known for playing games with your daughter's well being. That has to stop.

Your daughter's well being comes before ANYTHING. It comes before the restoration of your marriage and all else. She cannot be the pawn in this marital game and needs a steady support regardless of what games her father is playing.

Lianne, I should add that he must not be feeling too guilty or he wouldn't have gone this long. He can't hardly blame YOU for contacting the CSA when it was HIS ACTIONS that pushed you there.