Lianne, good job of holding your ground on the OW's house.

Well.....I will admit to nearly having caved again over this, but I didn't. He will put on a whining and desperate voice, sometimes will shed tears when talking of D8 you see. I am a sucker for his tears, always have been and he knows it.

The trouble is, is that he will go on and on as to how it's sooooo convenient for him to take our D to his and OW's and he will say such things as how he won't be able to see our D as often if she doesn't go there. He knows that the last thing I want to see happen, is contact limited between the two of them....and so in his own warped way he is trying to make me take the blame, to feel guilty and responsible for the fact that he won't be seeing her as often as he would like too if he can't take our D there - when in fact it's through his own lack of effort and his own choice that he won't see D8 as much and it's nothing to do with me. He is a manipulative SOAB !!

It is REAL important that when you talk to him, you are FIRM but very kind. It will not do for you to belittle him, guilt him or lord over him with a sanctimonious tone.

Actually I was guilty of belittling him, angry outbursts, causing arguments for the slightest reason, not being appreciative of him and talking down to him throughout our marriage, so I've desperately tried to avoid such behaviours. I was not the perfect wife Melody, far from it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And I guess it is because I wasn't the perfect wife and that I know I didn't treat him right, that I have tended to give him so much of his own way since he left and be nicer with him, even after what he did. I felt an enormous amount of guilt when he left in regard to how I'd treated him......I still do and this is why I find it difficult to say NO to anything he asks. I feel I want to make it up to him for giving him so much undeserved grief at home.

It's sort of hard to be nice when being firm, especially when he doesn't seem to hear me and I have to keep on repeating myself, when he will go on and on and on and is persistent that things be done his way. I tend to raise my voice when I'm finding my temper is wearing short, however I do tend to try and keep my cool though and be as kind as I possibly can be.

Like you say it is unfortunate that I have to deal with him at all, for then I'm not being dragged into what so easily could turn into slanging matches...

About Christmas. Do you really think its a good idea for him to come over on Xmas?

Well, it was Boxing Day (day after Christmas) that I'd suggested he come over and see D8 for a couple of hours and not the Christmas Day itself. I won't be holding my breath though, he has a tendency to say one thing and go and do another.....he might decide not to even show up. I doubt OW will relish the idea that he is spending some of Christmas without her in tow!

I would imagine that Christmas Eve & Christmas Day he most likely will be sitting feeling sad and very guilty, while watching another mans child open his presents on Christmas Day, while thinking of his only child opening hers back home without him. He has said that Christmas is when this whole thing will hit him the most.

I'd mentioned Christmas Day a while back to him and he had said that he wouldn't be able to make it that day. I was disgusted and had told him I was. It was then that he'd mentioned he'd like to collect our daughter Christmas Day and take her out for Christmas lunch with he, OW and her 11 year old son. I'd refused this point blank!!

I'm not sure what to do, but I can't deprive him of seeing her over the Christmas period surely?

As for Christmas Eve, well I would imagine that he and OW will be sitting in the nearest bar both getting sloshed out of their brains, (yes, they both like pubs and their booze and are very alike in that respect), so again it is pointless to suggest what you said. H will want to see our D as and when it's convenient for him too and if it's not interfering with anything else he may be doing........which leads me to think that he aint the doting and loving father he would have everyone and me believe he is......else he would make more of an effort!

<small>[ November 24, 2003, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

Hiya Jazimom, thanks for dropping by <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

H doesn't have his own home, he hooked up with OW immediately after walking. In the spate of 2 minutes I was told of his affair and that he was leaving to be with her.....it was a lot to take in all at once back then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He has no family in this area and neither have I, we both live miles away from any of them, this is why it's so difficult for me to not have to deal with him directly.

LOL Melody, yeah correct. He doesn't seem to realise that he isn't seeing his daughter, because it is HIS ACTIONS that has brought all of this about. He is sooo stupid!!

Mind you saying that, we both took an IQ test a year ago on the web and he came back with an IQ 0f only 96, while mine was 147.....ROFL!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has said that Christmas is when this whole thing will hit him the most. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'd say let it hit him. He made this decision and that's the way the cookie (or English biscuit!) crumbles. If you do anything to mitigate his missing daughter, he will be spared the natural consequence of walking away.

I know he'll blame you but if he's like my WAH, he'll shift the blame to you no matter what. If it's not one thing, it's another when the fog is this murky. Don't defend yourself, just let it slide off you. Here's a phrase someone taught me to use when the WA is in blame mode: in a calm and nice voice, reply "You may be right" and add in your own mind ". . .but you may be wrong." It works because there's not too much he can say back when you're almost agreeing with the nuttiness. Once my WA reversed himself immediately when I used this reply and started arguing the other side. Fog brain at work!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not sure what to do, but I can't deprive him of seeing her over the Christmas period surely </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're not the one doing the depriving here. He's doing it to himself. Maybe he can visit D at your house while you happily leave for awhile. Bake cookies for them, dress up, and say see ya later! The rest of the time, let OW try to fill his needs which will be a hard task when he's missing D.

I know you're thinking about your D, though, and want him to see her for her sake. That's the hard part. I don't have any smart answers for this dilemma but no matter what you do, you can't fix this for her because you can't fix him. I remember a low point early on when my therapist said that my daughter's life would never be the same. It hurt so much to realize this was the reality. I tried to cover up for WAH many times and still would if there is something that would throw D for a big loop. But this is so much bigger than the boo-boos we used to kiss away when they were young. Taking good care of yourself is something you can do for her right now. Let Plan B serve as an emotional breather for you.

Now if I could only do better at this myself!

Did you read where I said my WAH is English? Maybe that's why our WAs seem to be so much alike! One of his silly comments since all this started was calling me a bourgeois American and implying that English folks have no problem at all with infidelity! Now I have proof that ain't so! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

hmmm, Jazimom, you could be right in that our H's are so much alike because they are both Englishmen. In fact you aren't probably right, you WILL be right - they are from the same mould after all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !! Funnily enough, I've noticed that most American male WS's seem to be very alike in the stories I have read here and on other boards. You know, things such as still hanging out with their kids an awful lot when they have left the family home, a lot still even seem to go out with their wives and kids for family days out together, take their wives to dinner, etc, etc.... that just doesn't happen here or verrrry rarely! Englishmen seem to walk out and only a small percentage of them remain in touch with the families they left behind. I have no explanation as to why that could be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He is talking a load of cobblers when he says that English folks have no problem with infidelity......LOL. Of course we have a problem with it, betrayal and infidelity hits us just as hard, we are human after all with emotions. However saying that, marriage guidance counselling just IS NOT the done thing over here, marriage vows DO NOT seem to mean anything anymore over here. If I'd suggested to my H that we went for marriage guidance, he'd have probably had me sectioned at the nearest loony hospital <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .....LOL!

Where in England is your H from? Will answer in your thread shortly because I have to dash out but will be back later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Right am back with latest update. It would seem that H is falling back into his old pattern of using me as a *comfort zone*, or whatever ?????......now he thinks the dust has settled in regard to my finding about his future marriage plans with OW. Yep, he has began calling me on the phone again and the call came yesterday afternoon (Monday). Mondays were always the days he called and without fail, before I found out about his plans. I had this strange feeling he would begin calling again after seeing me Sunday and things were OK between us and I was right!!

Anyway, he'd said hello and then asked me if I'd been to the CSA (Child Support Agency) because he'd recieved a letter from them that morning and they have asked him to go and see them this coming Friday with proof of his income!! I told him that I had not been to the CSA nor been in touch with them at all (at this point I havn't) and so he'd said that they must have traced his whereabouts via his national insurance number. Well, if people can be so easily traced via NI numbers, then why did I have the taxman at my door this morning looking for him?? LOL

Now, I don't think I believe him. I think he was either making up all of this as an excuse to call me, or because he is wondering whether or not I perhaps have been to CSA within this past three weeks and he was wanting to make sure I hadn't. Needless to say when I told him I hadn't been in touch with them, he more or less let the whole thing drop and told me that if I had been planning on going there, then I was wasting my time because they had already found him. I will know however if he is speaking truth, because very shortly I should recieve a letter saying they have him now.

He began babbling on about everyday stuff, is my car ok, talked about Christmas, talked about his workplace, how many hours he's working these days....blah, blah, blah......again he'd mentioned our D going to OW's, he didn't see why I wouldn't allow it - I didn't answer that and quickly changed the subject <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> He'd spoken to our daughter also for five minutes, then goodbye.

Now I know Melody is gonna say "What the bleeders are you doing talking to him Lianne" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Well.....the reason why I took this call is because I was kinda harsh to him in the last one and I don't want to leave him with a bad taste in his mouth about me - so I took this opportunity simply to leave him with a better impression of me before I go into proper PlanB.

You know, I'm wishing now that he had stayed away, disappeared for good and not returned, it would've been so much easier!! Yes I would've hurt for a while, but I would have got over it all. It's so much harder when the WS will call, be all nice and sweet, seem to still care about that which he/she left behind. I just wish I knew if all this niceness and concern on his part was for real and not a game he is merely playing to keep me sweet. But then if it was for real, what the heck is he still doing with her?

"What the bleeders??" You foreigners and your strange English! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lianne. It really is time to get serious. Your plan B has all but collapsed and you have inadvertantently given your H a new lease term on his affair. Not only that, but you are now focused back on him instead of on yourself and your daughter. You have allowed him to suck you back into his twisted little world. And in the bargain, you have essentially given back control to him. He feels so much better after your assurances. A big TEXAS 2X4 up side of your head, Lianne!! [yes, I am a Texan and we have a saying here: "Don't mess with Texas!"] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

He is now assured that you won't make him face his obligations by reassuring him that you haven't contacted the CSA.

Not only was that counterproductive and DISHONEST, but it pretty much undoes all the Plan B work you have done in the past. You said you WERE calling the CSA and I think you should. He is not consistent with his support and this must be done for your daughter. He MUST MUST MUST be forced to face some consequences here, Lianne. Bring the man out of la-la land, Lianne.

Please do this right. This is not something you can do halfway. Send him the Plan B letter again and make sure he gets it. Don't talk to him again. Contact the CSA and get your support. Don't tick me off, Lianne! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

He is now assured that you won't make him face his obligations by reassuring him that you haven't contacted the CSA.

Yes but there is the possibility he is telling the truth and CSA have actually contacted him. He jumped to the conclusion immediately that I'd been to CSA when he recieved this supposed letter and so he'd called and asked me if I'd been in touch with them and I truthfully told him 'no I hadn't'. It's not like I assured him that I would NEVER consider CSA as an option, but I'm sure he thinks I wouldn't.

What if he had been consistent with this child support? Would you have advised that I still go to CSA?

OK time for truth and the real reason as to why I am hesitant of going to CSA. It's nothing to do with wanting to spare H facing HIS responsibilties, I am hesitant because I am thinking of MYSELF & OUR DAUGHTER firstly and how the heck we are going to survive if I do go there!! The problem with this CSA in the UK is, is that if I do decide to go ahead and contact them, I would not be any better off financially in doing so - I would be worse off financially. At the moment you see, I am unemployed and am in receipt of government benefits. He left me no option but to go and scrounge benefit, which is degrading to say the least! Any extra income that I recieved, including child maintenance from H through CSA, would be DEDUCTED from my benefit - so I would gain nothing at all from going to CSA!! The only way I would be better off financially, is if I were actually in employment, for child maintenance then would be classed as an extra income for me! So the way things stand at the moment is, is I recieve benefits, but I also recieve extra cash on top of this when he decides to pay it...ie: child maintenance from H!! Now I know this is wrong and that I should not be doing this, I loathe doing this - but what else am I supposed to do? I'm now a single mother with an eight year old child trying desperately to survive! I need EVERY penny that I can get to put food on the table, pay bills, buy clothes for myself and D8 and my Lord, we now have Christmas around the corner - I cannot survive on government benefit alone, nobody can!! So you see I have held off going to CSA for so long because I am thinking of MYSELF & MY DAUGHTER and how the heck I am going to manage financially if I do go there. I know that H NEEDS to face HIS responsibilities, but in making him face those responsibilities I am cutting my own nose off to spite my face more or less. I've got be in employment to come out of this any better off. Once in employment (which I intend to find work asap!!)/if I were employed, then I would not hesitate to go to CSA!

If CSA have caught him though, then the above is over! H will more than likely declare to them a false income for he is self employed, he will have peanuts to pay, so he's gonna come out of this laughing, I will be the loser not him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Seems I am the one losing out all ways, no matter what I do.

He didn't actually seem that bothered when he told me they had caught him. He knows he's her dad and he was aware that one day he would have to face up to his responsibilties, I honestly don't think it bothers him!! H has always said that he preferred for me not to go to CSA, not because he doesn't want to face his responsibilities, but because he knows that I wouldn't be better off in doing so and he'd rather give me cash in hand than have them deduct every penny. He says he is thinking of me and D8, helping me out and he thinks I should be grateful......LOL!! I might have been led to believe he was doing what was best for me if he was consistent with child support, but he has used money as a means to blackmail, as a means to get his own way, which makes me believe that he is thinking of himself also! If I wasn't so dependant upon his money, he wouldn't be able to blackmail - which is why I now have him believe that his money does not matter to me, I no longer allow him now to blackmail me with it and I would now go without his god damn money, rather than give in to his whims.......and I proved this when I did not call him for those three weeks!

He has even told me not to worry that CSA have caught him. Even after they take child support from my benefit he will still come up with extra cash for me, he said. He doesn't intend declaring his *whole* income, he says and believe me this man is Houdini - he can get out of anything!!!!!!The more he thinks he's helping me you see, the more chance of me succombing to his whims, he will be thinking!!

The whole thing is a total and utter mess. I just feel like vanishing to be honest, I'm sick of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

CSA will not bring him out of la-la-land. He will only resurface from there if and when he wants too. H is acting upon the feelings he has for OW and they have got to be pretty strong ones for him to be away this long and to be talking of eventual marriage to her!! Nothing I do or say will bring him out of anywhere I don't think, while he's still so hung up on her. He's got to want to exit himself.

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

I haven't read this thread. It scares the bejeebees out of me! My husband is at 1 week NC. I'm praying that he will have the strength to keep it up! Even though he says the affair has nothing to do with our relationship. That he was having ambivalent feelings toward me for quite a while. He was not sure if we should be together, if he really loved me. Now he says he does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Today he has to go to the city where OW lives. Even the mention of the city makes me antsy. I think it makes him antsy too. He seemed preoccupied this morning before he left. Oh please, let him be strong!

It scares the bejeebees out of me!

LOL!! Me too and it's my sitch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick as to what it's about though. It ain't about my WS trying to go NC with his OW as yours seems to be. It was me and him, LBS & WS having the NC, while he's still off playing house with his OW.

Good Luck anyway, hope it works out for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Lianne, thanks for explaining the situation so well. Your hesitance makes sense. But that still leaves you with the problem of getting child support out of him. Any ideas on that one?

Do you think he got the PBL? Are you resending it?

I will be away for a few days for Thanksgiving, so take care while I am gone. See ya Sunday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

But that still leaves you with the problem of getting child support out of him. Any ideas on that one?

Not sure what will happen from here Melody. I guess it depends upon whether or not he is lying or if he is telling the truth. If CSA have caught him, then they will let me know. Seeking and worrying about whether I am receiving child support from him will no longer be a problem for me - they will hold him accountable for paying it. He will have to pay this every week without fail whether it be £10 or £100. Nothing much I can do now other than to seek employment so that I am benefiting from his support. Once in employment and if I disagree with the amount they are making him pay, I can take him back to court to try and claim more support from him. Not a great lot I can do while still on benefits because the law will only allow me to live on a fixed income, so the more H had to pay, the more they'd deduct from me.

If on the other hand he is lying, if I have heard nothing at all from CSA and he is still failing to be consistant with support, there is still not a great lot I can do other than to accept his handouts when he feels fit to give them. A little something extra is better than nothing at all at this point, but as I said once I am in full employment there will be nothing stopping me from going full steam ahead to the CSA!

Not sure if he got the PlanB letter, but he says he's recieved nothing from me - could be lying I guess. Yes, I will be giving him another when I see him again, this time in the hand so that I know he's recieved it.

Have a happy Thanksgiving anyway!! See you when you return <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> hmmm, Jazimom, you could be right in that our H's are so much alike because they are both Englishmen . . .I've noticed that most American male WS's seem to be very alike in Englishmen seem to walk out and only a small percentage of them remain in touch with the families they left behind. I have no explanation as to why that could be </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know, I've read some real doozies from both sides of the pond about WAS shirking their responsibilities. But I know you're right about counseling being less accepted in the UK which says to me that there may also be less introspection or emphasis on emotional growth. More stiff upper lip and an attitude of get on with it, ya know. I've always thought of my particular WA Englishman as being an exception to the stereotype but maybe it's coming out now. What has bothered me is the fact that his mum and a couple of friends there seemed to just accept it (and OW) and the hell with me and our D. That really hurts, especially in the case of my MIL. It's like we just don't matter anymore.

Running away whether it's to the OW or the garage is just my WAH's standard way of coping with disappointments in himself. Easier to find a distraction, whether it's OW or excessive work than to look at himself. Makes me feel sorry for him but also damn mad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is talking a load of cobblers when he says that English folks have no problem with infidelity......LOL. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I know it's rubbish - that was one of his more ridiculous statements. Now if he was French, well, maybe I'd believe it, but I still can't imagine an A not causing tremendous pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Where in England is your H from? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He grew up in Devon, but lived most of his adult life in Sussex. We lived there for a couple years when we first married. I'll answer your "how we met" question on my other thread. It's a real love story. Or was, anyway. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Just updating.

Delivered the PlanB letter to H by hand two weeks ago. He took it away with him and has passed no comment about it, he's still obviously deep in LaLaLand from which I am doubtful he will return!

Good news is though, is that for the past four weeks he has turned up to pay child support EVERY WEEKEND. He has also kept up regular visitation and has seen our daughter EVERY WEEKEND for four weeks also. He has also abided by my boundary of NC between our daughter and his OW!! This is an improvement on what he was doing, will see if it lasts. When he's been calling at the home for our daughter I've remained out of sight, although he will tend to ask our daughter if mum is around sometimes.

I havn't recieved any phone calls from him, in which he would call just to chat, those seem to have stopped. I'm glad though because when he doesn't call it makes it far easier to stick to the plan. When they call it's tempting to answer.

I'm now unsure about what is happening over the Christmas period as nothing more has been mentioned between us, as to whether he will be coming to my home to see our daughter on Boxing Day (26th Dec). The plan was and it was my idea, that H would come to the home Boxing Day, spend a couple of hours with our daughter and I disappear to a friends home during that time so that they can be alone together.

He did however tell our D that he would be dropping off her small presents on the 21st Dec, so I figure that he perhaps wants to bring the more expensive and larger pressies on Boxing Day.
Could be wrong though as he may have absolutely no intentions of looking near over Christmas and may bring all of her pressies on 21st Dec. Admittedly that will hurt me a lot because I know it will upset our daughter if he fails to show up and I am the one witnessing her upset. And so when he calls in the morning to collect our daughter, I am going to ask him if he still has plans to call on Boxing Day and spend some time with her. It will mean seeing him, but I'll keep it short and to the point, then disappear indoors again. Not sure how I will react if he says 'no' he won't be coming over. I might say 'see you after the New Year then' and then close the door in his face. He can then experience his Christmas totally in the life and with the woman and child he chose over his own wife and his own child.

Not sure if I'm doing right or wrong here, but I've a feeling that when he brings our daughters presents, they will have H's, the OW's name and her sons on the gift tag! I was going to warn him that if any presents arrive with any names other than DAD appear on them, they will be rejected. To accept them is validating his affair, his OW isn't it?

Hi Lianne! I am glad to hear from you, I wonder every day how you are doing. It sounds like you are doing very good.

I would suggest NOT asking him his plans for Boxing Day. Let him make the move, not you.

I agree that its totally inappropriate, if not CRUEL, to put the OW's name on your daughter's packages. I would either remove the tags [return them to him with a note saying that you didn't think it appropriate for daughter to see these tags] or return the presents if he does that. I wouldn't let him get away with a hateful attempt to legitimize his sleazy affair, especially via your child. She should not be dragged into this. Hopefully, he won't do that though.

Is everything else going well?

Why do you call it Boxing Day? Are there boxing matches on that day?

Hi Melody,

Things are fine at my end and I've been keeping busy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The Christmas decorations have been up since mid November....lol, (I bought new ones and the place looks a whole lot more Christmasey than when H was here) and I completed all of my Christmas shopping around two weeks back. Christmas is my most favourite time of year, no way was I going to let what happened a few months ago spoil it. I guess that if H had just recently left I'd have still been in the doldrums, but it's nine months since he walked now, time is a great healer.

I wasn't sure why we have a Boxing Day over here....LOL, so I went and did a search on the web and it seems that Canada, Australia and New Zealand celebrate it too. I found this piece anyway...

Servants were required to work on Christmas. They were responsible for making the holiday run smoothly for wealthy landowners. They were allowed to take leave on December 26th and visit their families. The employers gave each servant a box containing gifts and bonuses. In addition, around the 800s' churches opened their alms boxes (boxes where people place monetary donations) and distributed the contents to poor.

Unsure of whether the above is the actual origin of the holiday though.

Latest update at my end anyway.

H had called last Sunday to drop off child support and collect our daughter. I'd taken the opportunity when he arrived to let him know that if any presents arrived with anybodys name other than his own on them, they would be rejected. Something about the way he'd looked when I said that, gave me the impression that OW's name was indeed already written on the presents along with H's.....LOL. If it was, he will have to remove it, else they will be returned to him!!

He then went off with our daughter and returned her an hour later. Seems he can only spare her an hour of his time once a week these days, because he can no longer take her to OW's. Our daughter did return with a shopping bag full of new clothes though - seems that H had decided to splash out a little extra money on her for a change and buy her something! He asked if he could collect her again this Sunday (21st December) and I'd said yes. I decided to take your advice and not ask him about Boxing Day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Seems however that our daughter had asked him about Boxing Day. H had told her that yes, he would be calling Boxing Day to see her playing on the Playstation 2 he has bought her! So I take it that he isn't interested in seeing her open the presents he has for her, now our daughter won't be opening them at OW's. If he turns up, which I couldn't care less if he does or not, he will probably hang around for ten minutes and then rush off back to his OW.

I did actually think a few months ago, that Christmastime might have been the time of year when I saw some of H's fog lifted. However this hasn't been the case. He seems deeper in it than he's ever been, although as I said in my previous posting, he does seem to have been making more of an effort to pay child support/see our daughter, than he has done of previous months, which I am content with. He could be doing this though, merely because it is near Christmas. After Christmas he may fall back into his old ways again......not seeing our daughter/not paying child support. Time will tell.

Lianne, thanks for the update, I am glad you are doing ok. I wouldn't worry too much about Christmas yet, he hasn't yet had to spend the day without his own family. Its no guarantee, but it may make a dent in him. '

And you can't be sure that things aren't starting to wear thin over there. Time will tell, just be patient, patient, patient!

I also sense that you are not as distraught as you were initially, which is good. That is one of the benefits of Plan B, in that it removes the BS from the daily torture of an affair.

Thank ya for the great explanation of Boxing Day, I thought maybe you guys sat around and watched Muhammed Ali or something on TV! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did actually think a few months ago, that Christmastime might have been the time of year when I saw some of H's fog lifted. However this hasn't been the case. He seems deeper in it than he's ever been, although as I said in my previous posting, he does seem to have been making more of an effort to pay child support/see our daughter, than he has done of previous months, which I am content with. He could be doing this though, merely because it is near Christmas. After Christmas he may fall back into his old ways again......not seeing our daughter/not paying child support. Time will tell. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Christmas last year was when my WAH seemed to go deeper into fog than ever which surprised me--innocent me, I hoped the memories of family times might clear his fog. He appears to be doing it again this year. I suspect that this is a rough time for him, too, only he can't admit it, therefore, he uses withdrawal and denial to cope.

Having been through a couple of episodes where WAH seemed to be "defogging" only to withdraw again, I don't blame your questioning his motives. I think in the past I've tended to grab onto any bone of hope he tossed too easily and probably pushed him in the other direction. So IF your WAH is showing positive signs, I'd suggest you continue to focus on yourself, accept the child support and visits with your d but don't push for answers from him. Use those opportunities to be pleasant and demonstrate that you are prepared to accept his decision and get on with your life.

One thing for sure, I'm in a much better place myself this year. It's encouraging to remember a year ago and see just how far I've come.

Boxing Day is a great tradition! Sure wish we had one over here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So IF your WAH is showing positive signs, I'd suggest you continue to focus on yourself, accept the child support and visits with your d but don't push for answers from him. Use those opportunities to be pleasant and demonstrate that you are prepared to accept his decision and get on with your life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah your right Jazmom and that is exactly what I am doing and will continue doing. That is, focusing on myself, my daughter, accepting the child support and his visitation with our daughter. These are positive changes he's made, (will they be lasting ones though??), but I am not interpreting them that they could be signs that his R with OW is wearing thin or anything like that. If he were having problems with OW, or if things were not going too well between them, I'd know!! He'd be calling me on the phone looking for the reassurances that I was still here for him, which he used to do in the first few months of him leaving. However, these calls no longer arrive, he no longer seeks assurances and so I figure that his and OW's relationship is still rosy, possibly even rosier now than it was in the beginning.

While in PlanA I would be pleasant with him, be all nicey, nicey and smiley, however now I am in PlanB I try to avoid him like the plague, but I know what you mean anyway. It's important we still remain civil and polite if we do happen to come into contact with them. I am now finding this hard to do though when I know that Divorce papers may arrive anyday soon!! It was easy for me to be pleasant and be his friend before I became aware he was planning on marrying his OW........now it's a whole lot harder, hence it's better I try to avoid contact with him as I did today when he called to collect our daughter.

I didn't answer the door, our daughter did. They went off together in his car and he had his version of Christmas with her at his friends home. He had brought his Christmas presents along with our daughter and she had opened them in front of him at this friends home. He'd then returned her two hours later, complete with her opened Christmas presents and he told her he'd see her Boxing Day. I remained out of sight the whole time....he didn't ask for me today.

Yesterday when he'd called with child support though, he'd asked for me. I went to the door and he'd asked was it ok if he called for our daughter the next morning, I'd just shook my head in agreement. He said he'd call at 10'o clock and asked if it was ok, again I'd merely nodded my head in agreement......then I closed the door. Kinda cold of me I know, but that's the way I feel in regard to him these days. I can't be bothered with him anymore to be honest.

Well, stupid dork me broke my PlanB, so it's back to square one I guess and H gets another lease on his affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Tuesday 23rd Dec

H called to speak to our daughter in regard to seeing if her Playstation was working ok. I hadn't realised it was him on the phone and so I'd picked up the downstairs phone, while our daughter was on the upstairs one to see who it was. Apparantly he'd rang our daughters mobile phone firstly, got no answer so he'd called the landline to speak to her. Strange that he had decided to call the mobile phone rather than the landline, because he never, ever calls the mobile and it must be way back in June when he last did. I figure that because he'd decided to call the mobile, he was wanting to avoid me/not speak to me. I also figure that he is interpreting my PlanB, my aloofness of late and my avoiding contact with him, as my being spiteful, mean and that I can't stand him any longer and so he is acting likewise and being cold with me. I think he is also angry at me because I'd insisted he not put OW's name on our daughters Christmas presents, because prior to my telling him this, he had been going to buy me a Christmas present from our daughter. Because I was being what he percieved as 'awkward', he'd decided not to bother - our daughter told me all of this.

Christmas Day

H called on the phone and I let our daughter answer because I had a feeling it was him. She said he was crying and he'd wished her a Merry Christmas. No mention of me......LOL. I didn't speak to him.

Boxing Day

H turns up at 10am. He's standing on the doorstep in the pouring down rain and I invite him in because I'd thought that he'd turned up to spend some time with our daughter in the home. He walks into the living room, looks nervous, comments that our daughter has a lot of gifts and toys and then he mentions taking her out for a couple of hours. I said that I'd thought he was spending time with her here, he said that he'd like to take her into town.......fair enough. I was secretly pleased that he didn't want to hang around.

He was having a good look around, commented on things that were not there the last time he was in the home (which was in October), then our daughter gave him his Christmas pressie from her. He thanked her, then thanked me.

He then mentioned our daughters birthday (Jan 12th) and told me he was buying her a bike. He then went on to say that he didn't feel that he was seeing our daughter enough and that he wanted to see more of her. The reason why he's not seeing her as often as he claims he'd like to, is because he makes no effort too....LOL!! It's by his choice that he only sees her two hours a week every Sunday, nobody at all is stopping him from spending extra hours with her, or even seeing her on a weekday night after she finishes school. I reckon what he is really saying is, is that he wants to start taking our daughter to OW's again and keep our daughter from 10am until 4pm as he did before. This would then make up extra hours with her. Aint happening! I am not giving in! If he GENUINELY isn't happy with the way things stand at the moment and he GENUINELY wants to see his daughter more, he'd do so regardless of the fact he can't take her to OW's.

He walked into the kitchen, commented on the fish pond he'd been building a week prior to leaving and asks me what I plan on doing with it? He told me it needed an electric water pump and then says I should ask my dad to fit one for me. No mention of him doing it and I didn't ask him too.

Off he went anyway with our daughter and he returns two hours later. He walks in the home, (appears to be more comfortable this time around) and says he wants to see our daughter on Sunday. He will call at 10am, says goodbye, then off he goes.

So I've kinda broken PlanB, but intend to resume it again. Only reason why I'd invited him in was because I'd thought he was staying an hour...if I'd known otherwise I'd have made him remain outside. I had to be ok because our daughter was present and I didn't want her to witness any bad feeling between me and her dad at Christmas.

Had a good Christmas anyway. I prefer Christmas at home and always have, so it was the norm for me, although it was just me and our daughter this year, minus H. I spent the day making Christmas dinner, watching our D playing with toys, watching Christmas dvds and then it was all over.
I got through it anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hope you had a good one Melody or anyone else reading this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, stupid dork me broke my PlanB, so it's back to square one I guess and H gets another lease on his affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't be too hard on yourself, Lianne. Sounds like you didn't initiate seeing/talking with him and were just being cordial.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also figure that he is interpreting my PlanB, my aloofness of late and my avoiding contact with him, as my being spiteful, mean and that I can't stand him any longer and so he is acting likewise and being cold with me. I think he is also angry at me because I'd insisted he not put OW's name on our daughters
Christmas presents </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sure my WAH is thinking the same thing about my plan B even though my B letter made it very clear this isn't so. This is something that worries me as I think it's a bad sign.

He wanted to put OW's name on your D's gifts?! What purpose would that serve but to make your D uncomfortable? Methinks he is just seeking to legitimize their A and make it all okay with D.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He then went on to say that he didn't feel that he was seeing our daughter enough and that he wanted to see more of her. The reason why he's not seeing her as often as he claims he'd like to, is because he makes no effort too....LOL!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did you respond to him? Do you think he's feeling a little guilty over his choices?