23 Down:

I hope this helps. Obviously, I wasn't exactly clear in some of my comments.

My comment about some marriages not worth repairing -- while that certainly isn't the case with me, I think we realistically realize that there are some marriages that (1) either should have never have happened or (2) because of verbal, physical or emotional abuse are certainly jeopardizing the health and safety of one person, perhaps more, unless some major help is found.

The gripped with fear comment -- it was based in forgiveness, one of those truly unique qualities that humans have. The fear of not being forgiven is frightening, nearly to the point of paralysis. I can certainly understand NOT being forgiven because of the pain that the A caused. While I accept that as a possibility, the thought of it is devastating nonetheless. Do I want the same marriage -- no. I want a better one with the same foundation we had only reinforced with more openess, emotional and mental disclosure -- weaknesses on my part in the past.

Like any addiction, an A poisons a part of us. It damages one's soul, moral character and self esteem. That doesn't include the mental and emotional anguish of knowing what you have done to your spouse. You can walk away from anything and anyone, but you can't walk away from yourself.

I hope this clarified things. But chances are, it created more confusion.

meandgctbe,
Yes, you will need to make a decision. Do not put your H, or yourself, through the hell of him finding out on his own. He is already suspicious. If you wish to stay in your M then you have to tell that to OM and go NC. Then tell your H. He will be hurt and angry, but he will be there for you if you are willing to work on the M.
If you decide that you cannot stay in you M and that your future is with OM then, please, speak to your H about a disillusion or divorce soon.
It is awful, it is pure torture? Obviously you are not happy right not, especially not with yourself. You know that your H, or the OM, deserves a full commitment from you. Either choice will be heartbreaking, but you have to know that you cannot have them both for long.
I do appreciate your coming forward to post here. I know it is not easy. Thank you.

Foolish Bird, thank you for coming back.
Your comments are not unclear, they simply lead to more in depth discussion.
Your fear of not being forgiven, while certainly understandable, may be unfounded. Most BSs on this board want to forgive their WS. Were my WW to return home and express a true willingness to work on restoring our M I would forgive her for the past because it would be my best possible way of showing her my own willingness to do the same as well as how much I still love her.
Everyone is hurt in an A. Your last paragraph was, IMHO, the most concise explanation I have seen of how an A hurts the WS:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Like any addiction, an A poisons a part of us. It damages one's soul, moral character and self esteem. That doesn't include the mental and emotional anguish of knowing what you have done to your spouse. You can walk away from anything and anyone, but you can't walk away from yourself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent stuff, FB! I hope that every FWS can take that wisdom back into their M. If it could only be seen before the A.
Please, keep posting.

<small>[ October 30, 2003, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: 23down ]</small>

It seems that many BS are caught by surprise by the A because they think they are in a "good" M. For the WS/FWS, how far detached from the BS did you feel you were when the A began? Did you feel that you were in a "good" M that lacked something (passion, excitement, intimacy) or that the M was basically dying, or dead?

This is a great thread for BS. Thanks for all the input you have given. I will be giving this information lots of thought.

23down, your question regarding whether FWS/WS think they're in a "good" marriage is provacative. Can we hear from y'all on that, please?

I, the BS, definately thought I had a "good" marriage. Oh, there were definatley issues, the major one being our living apart during the week due to WH's job. I was burnt out w/the kids, job and home...missed him terribly... thought he missed us...thought the end was in sight as far as his being away!
Huh, the end was in sight alright! The end of our M!
But I really thought that we had a solid foundation, and that WH was connected enough to his kids, me, our home, that he would never decide to give it all up.
That has been so hard to accept, never realizing that WH could have been that unhappy and I was unaware of it? Sure, I wanted the situation to change, but NEVER considered an end to our M.
I believed it when he said, "you are the best thing to ever happen to me" and "if I lost you, it would be the biggest mistake of my life"(this after A#1,3 week A, 3 yrs. ago, when he worked a 4 wk long out of state job)
I believe he meant those things and that he did,does love me. I believe his regrets are huge already.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It seems that many BS are caught by surprise by the A because they think they are in a "good" M. For the WS/FWS, how far detached from the BS did you feel you were when the A began? Did you feel that you were in a "good" M that lacked something (passion, excitement, intimacy) or that the M was basically dying, or dead?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife claimed to have been "blindsided", but I remember expressing my concerns for our marriage repeatedly over the two years prior to my affair. For whatever reason, she just wasn't hearing me. Yes, I detached from our relationship with no hope of recovering it, but I continued to play the part of husband and father because I believed I owed them that. The intimate part of our marriage was dead and I had resigned myself to the fact that this was how it was going to be.

In short, she believed things were great and I believed we were dead.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My wife claimed to have been "blindsided", but I remember expressing my concerns for our marriage repeatedly over the two years prior to my affair. For whatever reason, she just wasn't hearing me. Yes, I detached from our relationship with no hope of recovering it, but I continued to play the part of husband and father because I believed I owed them that. The intimate part of our marriage was dead and I had resigned myself to the fact that this was how it was going to be.

In short, she believed things were great and I believed we were dead.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel very similar to the way your W felt. I knew things weren't "perfect," but never dreamed they were as bad as he thought. H had told me a few times that he didn't think we connected. I guess I didn't ask enough questions and we didn't talk about it enough because I just didn't get it. NOW I GET IT!!! I have heard loud and clear the message he is sending me! I have woken up and I am trying my best to be his best friend, really communicating my feelings which I had a tendency to hide.

...just sharing.

good info and anxious to read more, so

^bump^

Stung...

I can appreciate the hiding your feelings problem. It has been a problem for me too, partly because of a deep sense of fear of failure. I was one that felt any "problems" (real or imagined) were my fault and admitting to faults has been a life-long struggle.

So rather than dealing with these issues, I sought refuge somewhere else, i.e. the A. It was a simple and comfortable way out. I imagined things were worse than they actually were, probably in part, to justify my actions. In reflecting over my past, I realize it wasn't any serious lacking on the part of my spouse, it was my own short-comings.

Sure there were things I wanted and needed more. But I was too darn weak to communicate that to my spouse. But the things I "needed" from my spouse in no way justified my actions and the damage I did to our relationship.

Working through those obstacles has been a long and slow process for me. I trust my spouse fully. But I'm learning to trust myself. I'm learning to be accountable. I'm learning to speak openly.

Like some ego-crazed bond trader, I sacrificed my fortune on ill-advised, short term and poorly thought out "investments." In essence, I walked away from my strength.

I desperately want to find my way back. I guess sometimes you can't appreciate clarity until you've experienced the fog at this level.

Wow, what an interesting combination of answers!
Each of you seems to be saying that there was a real lack of communication between you and your S on the state of your M.

Shugah: You, a BS, apparently had no idea that your M was in such trouble. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That has been so hard to accept, never realizing that WH could have been that unhappy and I was unaware of it? Sure, I wanted the situation to change, but NEVER considered an end to our M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Low Orbit: A WS, you feel that you had been obvious about your feelings. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My wife claimed to have been "blindsided", but I remember expressing my concerns for our marriage repeatedly over the two years prior to my affair. For whatever reason, she just wasn't hearing me.
In short, she believed things were great and I believed we were dead.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stung: A BS, your H had indicated that things were going wrong but had not, in your mind, said enough to cause concern. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> H had told me a few times that he didn't think we connected. I guess I didn't ask enough questions and we didn't talk about it enough because I just didn't get it. NOW I GET IT!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Foolish Bird: A WS who, on the contrary, was unable to express to his BS his feelings and EN. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So rather than dealing with these issues, I sought refuge somewhere else, i.e. the A. It was a simple and comfortable way out. I imagined things were worse than they actually were, probably in part, to justify my actions.
Sure there were things I wanted and needed more. But I was too darn weak to communicate that to my spouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In each case it seems that there was a real break-down in communication in the M, and this seems to be the major factor contributing to the A.

Whether it was a long-time thought process or a sudden impulse, at some point every WS made a conscious decision that they were going have an A. Once that decision was made was there anything that the soon to be BS could have said or done that would have made the WS change their mind?

23 Down:

Your question -- was there anything my spouse could have done or said....? Heavens knows, she tried getting me to open up and always said I could talk to her about anything.

My problem -- note: my problem -- was that I didn't own that feeling. For reasons that were entirely mine, I felt threatened and felt as though I would be judged on what I said. I'm sure there is some deep pyschological reason for reason for it, but that's the core of the problem.

The A didn't solve that problem. In some respects, it made it worse. Understanding the problem is progress.

When my spouse encouraged me to open up, sometimes I felt pressured. Perhaps a gentler approach would have helped. But I guess this is the classic chicken and egg theory. What comes first?

What my spouse did or said wasn't really threatening, but it was my interpretation of those actions. Opening up and revealing my wants and needs, in some twisted sense, I assumed was a admission of weakness or failure on my part.

HI 23,

I'm late coming aboard, but wanted to add here.

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For the WS/FWS, how far detached from the BS did you feel you were when the A began? Did you feel that you were in a "good" M that lacked something (passion, excitement, intimacy) or that the M was basically dying, or dead?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember with great sadness the good times we (H and I) were sharing after I met ExOM on the internet and not yet in person, before it all began. Even in the beginning of the A there was still a bond between us as the A was mostly long distance, foolish fantasy.

Sorry to veer off here, but it still all seems like a nightmare, the way I messed up my life.

My A started via the internet, on emails and private messages. I wasn't detached from my exH when it all began. He showed more of a state of amusement that I would talk on the internet w/other men and women- just chit chat, nothing personal. When it got narrowed down to the exOM, he said he was worried but I kept telling him it was 'nothing'.

I think if he had acted more proactive and concerned , it would have helped. His passivity was something I misread for not caring. He once told me, "Go ahead and meet him in person, I just don't want to know about it." That made me feel very unimportant and not treasured.

After DDay, he never once wanted to work on the marriage. If he had told me he wanted to, I would have come out of the fog, I'm certain of it.

In some ways I've wondered if in my case the affair was about 'testing' his love for me. He never reacted much at all in an emotional way, but he did file for D five months after DDay. That told me, "See, he doesn't love you. He'd rather lose you than try and work on things."

Finally, he didn't expose the affair. I think if he had I would have ended it much, much sooner. I'm so ashamed that I stooped so low.

Just my thoughts. How are things going for you at this point?

Take care,
HP

As always, thanks for replying.

Foolish Bird, what you said in your last post really struck a personal note with me. It may indeed be that you were afraid to speak openly with your S even when she asked you to reveal your wants and needs because you feared being judged, but not because it was an admission of weakness. If you have read Harley then you know that Disrespectful Judgements is one of the three LBs. My IC has suggested that one of the major issues in my M was that I was far too judgemental. I now know that there were times when I would ask my WW to open up to me, because I truly wanted to know her wants and needs, only to then dismiss or ignore them because they were not the same as my wants and needs. By doing this I unintentionally implied that I did not feel her needs were legitimate or important, and she became afraid to express herself openly for fear of my Disrespectful Judgements. Eventually WW looked outside our M for someone who would listen to, and fulfill, those needs.
I am certainly not saying that this was true in your case, but the reasons you felt threatened and felt as though you would be judged by what you said may not be entirely yours.
BTW, you have indicated that you wish to return to your BS and your M. Are you currently a WS or a FWS in NC (Letter?) with the OP?

Another interesting answer.

H-P, good to hear from you. You, a WS, still felt a connection with the BS even while in the A. But did the BS feel that it was a "good" M?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He once told me, "Go ahead and meet him in person, I just don't want to know about it." That made me feel very unimportant and not treasured.
After DDay, he never once wanted to work on the marriage. If he had told me he wanted to, I would have come out of the fog, I'm certain of it

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H-P, you know I care, so please don't take this the wrong way. But instead of you having an A and your H feeling forced to file for Dv do you think it's possible that your H let you have an Exit Affair? Was he so devastated by the A he felt he had no choice but to Dv? Or did he feel that he was not in a "good" M and basically allowed you to enter into the A in order to leave without looking like the bad guy?

I recently talked to my FWH about this communication issue.

He is just beginning to try to open up to me. I wondered why it is so scary. I asked him why could he open up to her and not to me.

He said that he really didn't open up to her. The relationship with her was an ESCAPE from his bad feelings. With her, he would have FUN . So, in opening up to me, he has to deal with the pain.

Make sense?

There are 2 answers to this question, one would be specific to the individual ws/bs and their marriage.

The other (as others have noted) pretty much applies to all. A short plan A, followed by plan B and no LB seems to fit the bill. But not a doormat plan A, or a lot of needines/clinging/begging etc, (all people are universally repelled by such weakness, and even if one successfully guilts a ws thusly it is a pyrhic (sp?) victory).

There is a certain comfort IMO by understanding this process, it relieves one of the anxiety over what to do, or feeling they "blew" it somehow. I know of no marriage that ends by accident, or over a single misstep, or cause someone blew it, they end cause the people in them don't wish to remain married, and folks pretty accurately assess that (that doesn't mean they aren't screwed up, or change later, but they know what they want at the time, and there is little anyone can do to change a persons mind much).

The important issue, which keeps coming up over and over, is a bs cannot indefinitely accomodate the affair, a short time period, no more than a few months, and less if physical contact is involved, must be enforced. Otherwise you have the chronic cake-eating behaviour, and nothing gets resolved, while the bs takes a beating. So the single most important thing a bs can do to end the fog, is seperate, start legal proceedings, and divorce if no ws won't give up the op, this usually works quite well. The marriage may still end, even though the affair stops, but at least then it is straightforward....and no LB is a given, and very powerful.... but sadly, not practiced as much as it should be, driving the ws away.

Is there anything a BS can do?

Yes, follow MB.

Not because it is going to restore every marriage, but it will but a definite end to the pain for everyone involved. A quick Plan A, which MUST include exposing the affair, followed by a STRONG Plan B with good healthy boundries.

Following this Plan would have eased the pain for my BH instead of floundering around waiting for me to make up my mind.

Some things that particularly harmed the situation were clinging, neediness. I have so much more respect for someone that doesn't depend on me. If he had shown me that he would be ok with or without me, I would have respected that more.

I was particularly fearful of being exposed. It eventually all came out, but in little bits and pieces and I was "allowed" to control and manipulate that process too much. I never felt the pain of being exposed. Because BH never hit me with exposure -- I got to play spin-doctor with everyone that mattered to me.

I got to do everything on my own terms. He never told me "get out" and he never Plan B'd me. I was more a follower of MB than he was. I read about how the WS should be the one to leave and though "hmmmm thats fair, thats right" so I slowly made my plans to move out. It would have shook up my world considerably to be told to do things on HIS terms rather than my own.

So MB is VERY powerful, and would most definitely had an impact on me as a WS if my husband would have used it. It would not have brought me back to the marriage (mine was very much an exit affair) but using these principles would have saved my ex a huge amount of time and pain.

23 Down:

Sorry for the delay in responding to you question -- where am I now. I am in purgatory it seems -- still technically classified as a WS but making certain the addiction is broken before another attempt at reconciliation with my spouse. We had a false start late last summer when we came out of Plan B. At that time, I lived in fear of many things -- failing to meet my spouse's expectations, over-riding guilt, etc. I moved out again.

I can't put my spouse through something like that again. She is too special and quite honestly, I have more respect for her than that. I respect her more than any person in the world.

As I wrote earlier, I trust my spouse fully but am learning to trust myself. Climbing out of this pit of addiction isn't easy, but I will do it and as a result, be a better person for it.

I see progress in how I relate to people and problems and that's important to me. There are still some obstacles, but with each success, the resulting confidence inspires me.

Failures and set backs are a part of life. I've finally realized that as well as knowing that you are not judged by these alone, but how you respond to them. That's a huge step for someone like me, a life-long perfectionist

The best fog cutter I found was realizing that the best part of my day, was seeing or spending time with my spouse.

I'm glad to be back reading posts on this board. I got away from it for awhile. Sadly, knowing that you are not the only person who has screwed up their life is, in a twisted way, is a bit reassuring. But sharing these experiences here does offer insight in solving the problem and repairing one's marriage.

Sorry for the long, rambling post. But thanks for the information you provided.