FF:
Have to agree with Faith here, I think, that while it may have been good for you to be home to accept the phone call, I also think it's okay that you weren't. Might make him miss you even more..... and that's what it's all about right?

Just another thought here, but have you done anything about a Christmas gift from your kids to their dad? What about making him up a scrapbook of pics of the kids for him to have at his house? You could take the pics now, they wouldn't have to be old ones you already have, that way it won't be too emotional of a project for you. Just a thought along the picture line.

And quit beating yourself up for not letting him babysit last night! He had his chance and blew it. You made other arrangements - that's how life is going to be if he continues this path he's chosen. He needs to realize it. I'm proud of you for not backing down on this!
DB

Faith1960,

You are right, and I knew in some way that I was right in not jumping the gun with the wedding video and pics. I will eventually send the pics of kids. Dazed blonde had a great idea for a small scrapbook of current photos for a Christmas present from kids to dad. Including mostly current pics of kids and ones of their new kitten which looks just like a former cat that WH and I had.

I did email WH just now informing him of our DD's dental apt. and asked if he wished to be present for it. Not a whole lot more said other than asked how he is. Hopefully not too forward, I don't believe so.

Dazed Blonde,

Great idea on the scrapbook. I have already decided to put together 3 frames w/3 slots in each consisting of each kids 1,2,3 year pics and give it also to him from each kid. I am letting the kids decorate the matting on inside of frame. I think I posted this idea before.
I thought of taking current pics of kids and their cat. I do realize I need to stop beating myself up. My heart beats me up, but my logic and common sense picks me back up.

You guys are both right about missing the phone call. Faith, I thought it was God's work possibly too and a lesson to WH from me or God or both. You are right about this is what it's all about, missing me and wondering if I have gotten on with my life. Time will only tell. Hopefully soon.

I would like to mention that member Stung By a Bee could use your advice. Her recovery took a fall and she is very upset. If you get time, please read my thread to her titled "Stung By a Bee..ARE you out there?"

I'll update probably late tonight again or tomorrow.

Thanks
FF

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dazed blonde had a great idea for a small scrapbook of current photos for a Christmas present from kids to dad. Including mostly current pics of kids and ones of their new kitten which looks just like a former cat that WH and I had.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Perhaps this would make a great Xmas present. Be very subtle however about placing pics of you in there. With the kids, ok, but none with H. Your situation is a bit more complex with OW and you don't want to tip her off as to your feelings about WH, or else...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did email WH just now informing him of our DD's dental apt. and asked if he wished to be present for it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry, maybe it's just me, but this seems odd. Is this DD's first appointment or is this something he normally would have wanted to be present for? Try and make a note if you try and bring about a situation that is not something that is normal, it has the potential of making you appear manipulative.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Faith, I thought it was God's work possibly too and a lesson to WH from me or God or both. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's uncanny and there is a reason. We just don't know what it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would like to mention that member Stung By a Bee could use your advice. Her recovery took a fall and she is very upset. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did and I was hoping to try and respond. I'm still digressing. I noticed one of the posters advised her not to do anything in haste. To calm down and give it a few days as any kind of action at this point is an emotional reaction. Excellent advice and I second that.

Are your kids with you or WH this weekend. Just curious, how do they feel about OW? Is there any kind of a connection there?

Peace.

Faith,

Be very subtle however about placing pics of you in there. With the kids, ok, but none with H.

I didn't think it would be good after you mentioned it. I just don't get the vibe that WH is close enough to edge of fog yet.

Is this DD's first appointment or is this something he normally would have wanted to be present for?

No, it is not her first apt., but this apt. is to get her front permanent tooth fixed from when she chipped it 2 weeks ago. WH chipped same tooth as a kid and since it was not a regular cleaning apt., and he's been through the procedure before, I thought he might want to be there. He replied he doesn't believe he needs to be there. I also, asked since he seems to be very particular about me informing him of every little decision re: the kids.

Are your kids with you or WH this weekend. Just curious, how do they feel about OW? Is there any kind of a connection there?

Kids are with me for the weekend. Our oldest D seems to be not as open towards me as she was in the beginning of when WH moved out. Her teacher said to me today that D seems to be more withdrawn in class lately, more so than in beginning. This concerns her and me a bit. I may mention this to WH or may not. D and I have a talk each night before bed. For a while now, I have not probed her mind with ?'s re: WH and OW even though I would love to know what she observes while at WH house.

Our S seems to be angry with WH and possibly with me. He doesn't seem to want to talk to WH on phone lately, just sometimes though, and same with me over Thanksgiving when he was with WH. He doesn't seem to think anything either way about OW and kid.

Our youngest D, who's 3 seems to have more of a connection to OW. I just mean, when D is with me, and she is talking to WH on phone, she will ask to speak with OW and OW's D. This hurts me, and especially whenever I can hear OW voice loud enough from a distance away. It makes my blood boil to know she is talking to her dad's mistress/girlfriend, and I could name a few more titles, but won't.

I'm having a tough day, and week. I have a few feelings of defeat in me. I'm just getting so tired and impatient at times. Although I am trying to hang in there to see what emotions the holidays bring for WH.

Thanks and Take care,
FF

I forget if I asked you all this question or not. I believe so, but here it goes anyway:

If/when I ask WH if he would like to babysit kids the next time I need one, since he had previously removed SEVERAL items (financial records, computer, weapons, safe) from our house during my arrest, would it be too much of a trust risk to allow him to watch kids here at my (his former) house? I would love to have him watch them here in the comforts of the kids home (easier to put them to bed on time) and the memories of WH old house, but would be nervous about him snooping in my office.

I looked things over, and I could spend about $35 (a bit of sheetrock and a door lock) to make my office lockable w/a keyed door lock.

What do you all think? Thanks,

FF

Hi all.


I am getting fed up with WH, especially after not acknowledging our wedding anniversary last week, and whenever I answer the phone when he calls for the kids, he doesn't say a word to me and doesn't seem to be bothered by the fact that I didn't acknowledge (anniversary) it either. I also was not expecting him to acknowledge it, just hopeful.

I may give him until the holidays are over and my anger management class is over Jan. 9, because he may be asked to attend my final anger mgmt. exit interview, and if he does attend and he does not express or show the least bit of respect, interest, regret, care, emotion or feeling for our me and/or our M, and/or proud of my accomplishment for completing the 3 month class then I WILL go to the full Plan B; no ifs ands buts or excuses about it; PLAN B IT WILL BE!!!!

I guess this will be considered as my final deadline for Plan A to end and B to begin. What are your thoughts on this approach and timeline/deadline?

The only times he currently initiates ANY communication with me in any way are when we see one another during kid exchanges. Otherwise he just answers any emails I send VERY BRIEF and to the point. I know how I will handle those in future Plan b when I do it so we do not end up seeing one another. It is this coldness/calousness of his that I am fed up with, and rightfully so I might add.

I know, Jan. is a long ways off, but it is only 1 more month from today. After that I think I will be ready fully to implement the Plan B to the max.

I am also getting on with my life in the meantime, getting out with others and meeting new people, like my first Christmas party this weekend, so I am not just sitting around house moping anymore. However, I just implemented this over the last week or so.

Will let you know how things progress. Thanks again.

FF

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am getting fed up with WH, especially after not acknowledging our wedding anniversary last week, and whenever I answer the phone when he calls for the kids, he doesn't say a word to me and doesn't seem to be bothered by the fact that I didn't acknowledge (anniversary) it either. I also was not expecting him to acknowledge it, just hopeful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hang in there FF. Try and remember that WH is in the fog. When men are in the fog they do not react the way we normally would expect them when they are connected to us. Please don't be disappointed. This is normal behavior for someone who is in the fog. Even though you're disappointed, accept it and move on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am also getting on with my life in the meantime, getting out with others and meeting new people, like my first Christmas party this weekend, so I am not just sitting around house moping anymore. However, I just implemented this over the last week or so.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great idea. This will help you move forward with your recovery. Try and focus on yourself and your kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her teacher said to me today that D seems to be more withdrawn in class lately, more so than in beginning. Our S seems to be angry with WH and possibly with me. Our youngest D, who's 3 seems to have more of a connection to OW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No doubt you're starting to recognize some of the fallout from your separation. Regardless of what people/experts say, kids are affected. Some handle it better than others and alot depends on how you guys handle it. Fortunately your H has elected to remain in your children's life, unlike my son's father. (H is stepdad). Son experienced feelings of abandonment which no doubt has manifested itself as low self-esteem. When kids behavior starts changing, chances are they're expressing their feelings of fear of the situation. They know you're separated but what next? Often they're thinking what if I lose mommy(daddy) now?

This is where you really need to validate their feelings and let them know it's ok to be sad, angry or whatever. And don't discount the three year old's feelings for OW and child regardless of your feelings. It could push her further away from you and it could be always be worse.


Peace.

Faith,

Thanks, I will keep the FOG in mind. I know it is true, but also hard to deal with.

FF

Faith,

Hi, WH emailed me late last Friday asking if I received some WORD files he forwarded which were on our old computer that he removed from house. For some reason, I just received the email this morning asking if I got them.

I didn't respond until later today, and kept it brief. He just emailed some additional ones today, but probably only cuz I said don't delete any files and/or any emails to/from me.

Do you think I should ask WH to forward all of the emails that he wrote to me from his work computer while we were working on M and during Plan A? I only ask cuz it may cause him to sneek peek at them once again before he sends them and he may get a wiff of fresh air or sentimental air from a few of them. What do you think?

Also, here is a copy of the love prayer letter I have been working on for WH but am not sure when to give it to him yet. Please give me your honest opinions on it and your advice as to when you feel it should be given; Christmas? Before then, or just before my anger management class ends.

Dear WH,

Since you left ___ months ago, I have experienced undoubtedly the most difficult time of my life. It has been difficult facing the possibility of life without you. Today, December 4th, of all days, I suddenly found the tape of our wedding day in my hands and before I knew it the tape was playing in the VCR. I’ve watched this same tape before, but for many reasons, this time meant something different. Instead of joyous emotions, it brought a pool of tears to my eyes and a 100lb. weight on my heart. As I reflect on our first few years together, I’m reminded that you asked me to marry you of your own free will and I did not blackmail you or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made on your own which I joyfully accepted. I remember a commonality between us when we first met at the Hoist that cold January day. It was the small fact that both of us had recently given up on looking for that special person in our life. I also find it very powerful in knowing that from among all of the boy/girlfriend relationships we both had prior to us meeting each other, the friendship/courtship we developed first before becoming fully physical is the one union for both of us that developed into the strong emotional bond that brings a man and a woman to want to marry and spend the rest of their lives loving each other. Over the years, it is certainly normal that we both have evolved into different people than we were when we married. However, this is all part of growing up, changing and growing together. I had no idea of the profound effect and change that becoming a mother would have on me until it occurred. Just as I understand that you may not have had any idea of how much you would dislike business management until you found yourself knee deep in it if this is still the way you feel about it today. I am aware that I can no more expect you to come back into this relationship than I could have made you marry me. As I expressed a few weeks ago, I now know that filing for the divorce was a mistake simply because that is not what I want – then, now or ever. Rather than consulting with my conscience and God, I got both scared and angry in response to your telling me we are getting a divorce and along with my arrest that I hastily made a decision that at the time I believed was for the best. So, as far as that end goes you should know that I will no longer initiate anything in that direction. If our marriage is to follow that fatal path the decision rests solely on your shoulders and is between you and God. In these past few months as my relationship has grown with him, I know that I can walk away having a sense of peace just knowing that I am fighting/fought for us and our marriage even against all odds, under life’s most unbearable circumstances and with such unconditional love for you that no man or woman could have ever asked for more in a spouse. I admit that this entire experience has been a very painful lesson for me. It is often said that God sometimes takes extreme measures to get your attention. There’s no doubt in my mind that he’s been trying to get my attention for a long time now. I strongly believe that this attempt to get my attention goes way back to February 27th, the day I woke up telling you of the dream I had only to find out minutes later it was no dream, but actually a nightmare which was just beginning. I only wish that I had discovered Marriagebuilders.com back in February. I truly believe with all of my heart that it would have saved us both from a lot of the additional pain we are now experiencing. I remain open to reconciliation and to the restoration of our love, as I have discussed, because I believe this time is meant to be a healing time for both of us. If you choose not to seek reconciliation however, I will understand that it is your choice and I will contact you only on issues regarding the kids. In the meantime I will continue to pray for you daily and trust that God will also guide all of us in what we do.


I really liked a few segments from the letter you provided me that you wrote to your WH. Sorry if I used too much of it, but I think you hit the nail on the head in those spots for me.

I'm not quite done with it yet and have been taking my time with it. Let me know what you think. THank you so much.

Also, I discovered today that WH has kept a 2nd piece of mail from me which was yes, addressed to him, but meant for me. (long story) Do you think I should approach him on this subject of handing over any mail that is meant for me?


FF

Forever:

My situation was a lot like yours. My H had a longterm A-about 2 years. He eventually moved in with the OW and her daughter.

PLAN B was essential. As much as I hated it and struggled with it, I know now that he had to have that period of being with her and her daughter 24/7 without contact with me. He has said that he learned that she was JUST LIKE ANY OTHER WOMAN. Previous to moving in and playing house with her, he had an idealized, fantasized image of her. He soon learned that he could not make her into the me that I was before having children.

Also like you I became too much of a parent rather than a girlfriend to my H. He wants both. He wants to share parenting and romance with me. He found that, although he could romance the OW, she failed as a parent and a housemate. Does this make sense? Once he realized that I could do the whole picture and she could not, he found his way back home. She will not be the parent of HIS CHILDREN that you are. He probably has a fantasy of THE BRADY BUNCH which, of course, was a TV show.

Bottom line, looks like a need for PLAN B. GO AS DARK as possible. Let him see what a life with her would REALLY be like.

Also give him the picture that you can go on without him while he's over there in that MESS OF A HELL HOLE with the OW.

Dear FF:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m reminded that you asked me to marry you of your own free will and I did not blackmail you or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made on your own which I joyfully accepted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMVHO, this is the only sentences I would remove. There's something about it that smacks of some kind of an LB but I'm not sure which one it would be.

Also, as I'm no expert, I think Mimi does give good advice about going dark. Maybe now, around Christmas would be a good time to implement Plan B. It might save you from any hurt he's about to pile upon you during the next few weeks and it also might make him miss you during the Christmas season.

If you are using this as a PBL though, you might need to make a stronger point of it instead of leaving it up to him to decide.

Take care,
DB

Thanks Mimi and Dazed,

Both of you feel that Plan B is necessary. Even though Christmas is the time I would most hate to start it, I do think Dazed has a point about it possibly saving me the hurts he will pile on and maybe even make him miss me. I guess I certainly do NOT have ANYTHING else to lose by starting it now.

I have already given WH a PBL back in mid August which was not strictly adhered to by me or him; and then it was back to just talking with each other. Therefore, is it necessary to give WH a 2nd PBL or copy of same PBL or at least let him know that I'm going DARK before doing so? I mean does it really matter since we are still in middle of the divorce? Please let me know on this issue since I think I will do it starting this coming weekend when he comes to pick up the kids for his weekend visitation.

I think I am ready to do it. Octobergirl would be proud. She has been trying to get me and another member to go Plan B for a while, but knows it's a tough thing to do.

I will give an update once I have been in Plan B for a few weeks. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the 2nd PBL or not.

FF

I think you'll have to do a simple PBL that you mean this time. And then do it!!!!

I can't even begin to imagine how hard it would be to do this but I think you need to concentrate on saving whatever love is in the bank.

I think the letter you have going is good but the last part needs to be stronger...it's too wishy washy.

Strongly state that you will no longer communicate with him unless it is about the kids.

And that means - don't ask him to babysit for you. He gets the nights he gets and that's it!!!!!!

You can do this!!!
DB

Thanks Dazed,

I will change those parts of the letter you suggested and work on it more over the next 2 days. Then do you think I should give it to him or mail it to his work address? I do not want to mail it to his house just in case OW opens all mail and throws it away. I will post my final draft here before giving it to him though.

Thanks again.
FF

FF:

I think the letter is a great start. I'm glad the one I previously provided you helped. Couple of things.....remove any reference to how 'we felt', 'our thoughts', 'us' etc. Keep the letter in the first person as much as possible. Don't assume that you know how he felt back then or how he feels now. Best to just keep the letter all about you and your feelings.

I agree, that once you send this letter, you have to be prepared to do a strong plan B? Are you?

All in all, take it one day at a time. Time is the biggest healer and you'll know in your mind and feel in your heart when it's time to move on.

Peace.

Thanks Faith,

The only reluctance I have left before going to Plan B is the thought of when I did the Plan B the first time, I felt it did exactly the opposite of what I intended it to do. Instead of missing me, WH went straight into OW's arms all the way as if that was what was intended. WH who was not speaking too much about the A to his side of family in turn had no one else he would talk to so he turned further toward OW.

I certainly don't want this, but if I remember in SAA, that the character Greg eventually got sick of hearing Sue's crying and seeing her depression from not seeing Jon or mostly her kids. So hopefully this is what it does for me this time.

I will probably post the final draft tomorrow, get one last bit of feedback and then email it to WH work and possibly mail a copy of it to his work.

Thanks and I will keep you posted.

FF

I understand how you feel about the plan B. Personally, I don't think you need to tell him you are doing a plan 'B'. I think you just need to just show him and set your boundaries appropriately.

For example, don't call him to babysit, or if he calls you for anything other than having to do with the kids than you can deploy the appropriate plan B response. Personally, one of the risks that I see with Plan B is when the WS opens the door, the BS continues to plan B and ends up slamming the door shut. While I'm not an expert on plan B, I believe it was primarily designed for a BS who is having an affair but not necessarily in a committed relationship/living with OW. You may have to modify it somewhat.

Cerri has been able to help several individuals on this board with both plan B and 180 turnaround. Have you thought about asking her?

As far as sending the letter, I would just e-mail it. You know he is getting your e-mails since he's responding to them. Mailing it seems like overkill, plus you never know who's going to open/read that kind of thing.

Good Luck.

Faith1960,

Thanks, especially for your personal opinions. I know this will surprise you and others, and may open me up to a 2x4, but after talking this morning with the women in my bible study group, I do not plan to go through with incorporating a full Plan B or telling WH so. The women felt this Plan B just sounds like too much game playing and manipulating WH into coming back. To some degree I agree, and especially since it backfired for me the last time.

My reasons are just knowing how weak I was the last time in August; I can't say for sure w/o doubt that I would be strong enough to carry it out over a long period of time. I would rather do as you just suggested and just implement it along the way. You asked if I was prepared to go full Plan B. I honestly don't think my heart is in it for the long haul, and I definitely do not want to alienate him further; especially since he has opened that door a crack (for kids to start with; hopefully not just to reduce child support payments). My gut and heart are telling me to not implement Plan B at this time, but rather just wait things out for a bit, work on me and the kids and be patient.

My oldest daughter said last nights visit w/WH, she didn't get to spend much time w/him cuz OW's DD wanted my DD to play with her all night. My DD said things w/ OW's DD were fun/good at first, but things are different now; she's bossy, pinching and hitting still (spoiled little brat). I strongly encouraged my DD to talk w/her dad and let him know she does not want to spend all her time during his visits w/OW's DD, but rather w/him more. Hopefully this weekend she talks w/her dad. I will again encourage her too, and will ask her on Sunday if she did. Either way, if things don't improve w/my DD on this, I may ask DD if she would like me to talk to WH about this issue for her. Probably not good idea, but someone has to let WH know what/how DD is feeling.

I am painfully at that crossroad in this mess, and I just feel that I should follow my heart which says not to go NC, but rather be patient and strong and faithful and trusting in God to heal both our hearts.

I hope you understand my struggle even though you have helped me tremendously come this far.

I still plan to give WH the prayer/love letter, but maybe for Christmas or maybe just hold onto it for a while longer until I see a thin spot in the FOG if/when that happens. This is what my gut and heart are telling me to do even though it may seem illogical according to SAA.

Thanks again, I will still continue to post.

FF

I trusted in God too. My faith was a big part of my FWH coming home. I fougnt it too. I sounded just like you but I had to do PLAN B. It was the only way for him to see how much he wanted and needed me. I think PLAN B as well as PLAN A is keeping him home now. It is not about manipulation. It is about giving the OW chance to meet all of his ENs. He has to see that she will fail. I did not believe it then but now I agree with the others that both PLANS are probably essential. For another Christian viewpoint which really helped me, read LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by JAMES DOBSON. I also followed his principles which are sort of like PLAN B. I would quote DOBSON almost verbatim to my FWH. Of course he did not know that.

Try to follow the MB principles as closely possible. They really work.

Originally posted by mimi1254:
read LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by JAMES DOBSON.

One of the best books to help BS decide what is the best tactic to take when the WS won't give up the OP.

I love this book because it emphasizes RESPECT as a key turning point to marriage recovery!!!!

YES Mimi .... this book is soooooooo great.

Pep