Positive stories like this are so encouraging, yet going through hell like this makes one think it is impossible. WH's cousin told me that they went out shopping together yesterday. The cousin was going and when WH heard, he also wanted to go with them. Cousin told me that he bought himself a trenchcoat and then asked the salesgirl to show him anything they had in size petite. Size petite is myself. OW is large size. Cousin said he wanted to buy something but unfortunately they were out of small sizes. I can't understand what he is trying to do, one day he asks me to choose a new telephone, he wants to buy me one. The next day he is out shopping and also wants to get me something. But meanwhile as I invite him over to dinner, he eats and goes and does not say a word or express any interest in me. I don't really want to plan B, but I also do not want to be taken for granted. In 5 days it is new years and we have nothing planned. If he doesn't make a positive move I will spend it with my kids and my parents. It's just that New Years is such a perfect opportunity to patch up things and start a New Year on a more positive step. I don't feel like he is going to do anything about it. Yet there is not much more I can do at this point. I already invited him over for dinner last night, if he wants to be together on New Years he will have to make that move. Really horrible times.

Hi again, yay - glad to see you got some other input.

Remember what I said way above - expect more mood swings. He is terribly conflicted right now. The very best thing you can do is - keep doing what you're doing. The family home evening/dinner was perfect. In contrast, the worst you can do right now is to love bust. Please avoid it like the plague.

Please accept this: time is on your side. Right, mimi? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> No need to rush anything right now.

I suggest you ride this out through the new year. When was the last time you discussed him coming back? If not recently, perhaps it's time to remind him you're interested in restoring your marriage?

Another strategy is to write him a Plan A letter. It's sorta like a Plan B letter, but without the isolation punchline. A writtten letter allows you to get your thoughts straight on paper and provides him something to re-read over and over. Please give us your thoughts on this.

WAT

Hi again worthatry,

I plan to do exactly as you said throughout New Years. I sense that he seems to be becoming more confused as we Plan A. He is even acting depressive around us. My MIL invited us for lunch today. I was thinking whether I should go or not, but I think I will go. My D said I should go so that he definitely gets the message that we don't intend to let him go off to OW. Besides I have nothing against my MIL at this point and she invited me. He has not mentioned any plans for New Years though. Only four days left to go and I don't know what he is thinking about it. His alternatives are to be with us or be alone without his kids. I think I will wait and see what move he will make this time since I initiated the dinner. He just seems so incapacitated right now.

Keep posting, its really helping my morale. thanks

I took the kids to m&#305;l for lunch but at the spur of the moment decided not to stay. I was polite and cordial and told them I would stay for coffee when I came to pick up the kids. I didn't see WH,since he had not yet arrived. I woke up with a very sore throat and my voice is almost completely gone. MIL noticed this and commented at lunch to the family that I was not well. apparently WH became very concerned. The kids said he was worried and inquiring about me.( He never was that way when he was at home). He even sent me a text message expressing his concern over my illness. Weird!!!! What is going through this mans mind? Is most of it show? I went there in the afternoon, he greeted me with concern. I stayed for tea, waited for the kids to finish watching a special music program on tv and then left. Of course no talk or indication to anything about us took place. It's like the situation doesn't exist and nobody wants to even mention it. I can't understand it at all. Will keep the events posted.

Stayed in all day on sunday. I came down with a real sore-throat and cough. Won't be going in to work today either. WH called in the morning briefly to inquire about plans. Told him we weren't going anywhere and said he was welcome to come over. He has he had work to do and would probably stay and do that if he felt well. He didn't call the kids at all for the rest of the day. D said she wanted to write him and e-mail prior to New Years telling him her feelings and wishes. I think she did that. I don't know what effect that will have on him.
He came by in the morning. Said he couldn't do anything yesterday. Appeared very disturbed. Didn't talk to me at all. He only asked how I was feeling and told me I should go see a doctor. He was completely silent, staring at the ceilings. Apparently was crying when he went to S's room to wake him up. Didn't talk to kids either. What is going through this man's mind?

GUILT? I sure hope so.

L.

WH received e-mail from D. he is even in a deeper depression. He called me as soon as he received it and asked if I knew of it. I said no. I asked him to read it to me. He did. It was very honest and straight from the heart. She was telling him how important this family is to her and she loves both parents and doesn't want to see family break up. she wrote she wants a happy reunited family for New Years and nothing else. His first comment was 'see how hard it is to be a father! They always blame the father and never the mother.'So egotistical. I told him being a mother and a father were equally difficult. He called again about half an hour ago to inquire how my throat was. It seemed he wanted to talk about something but was hesitating. He didn't manage to say what it was and we hung up after talk about the kids schedule. He said he was not well at all. I have been hearing this for a week now. He accepts the A, but he is still trying to justify it by coming up with BS***.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by yay:
<strong>What is going through this mans mind? Is most of it show?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Confusion. Competing priorities. Self doubt.

Show? Not likely. If anything, he's holding back and only revealing that which he cannot suppress.

The "woe is me" stuff - always the "father's fault" - is typical blame shifting. BUT! I believe you HAVE to offer him some humbleness and accept some blame for the poor state of the mariage that pre-dated the affair. You HAVE to! Otherwise, his pride may prevent him from ever letting down his guard and being humble himself. He needs an admission from you, perhaps, so he can feel comfortable admitting HIS failings. Perhaps you've already done this - please describe what you've communicated.

Once again, please consider a Plan A letter. In it you can set your boundaries, make it clear you want to restore your marriage - and acknowledge the role you played in creating the poor marital environment that gave him his excuses to have an affair.

WAT

We had these long talks about the state of the marriage just after he had moved out. During those conversations I told him we were both in need of making an effort to make the marriage better and I also told him I was ready to make my share of the effort provided all third parties were eliminated. This is when he said he wasn't ready and he was afraid of making a try on the marriage.At this time his affair was continuing. It probably still is. I have tried very hard to be the way he wants me to be, however he wants someone who will without question obey and aggree to everything he says. One must never ever ever disagree with him on any issue. It brings his ego crushing down and he punishes you by sulking and not talking to you for days. And as I have learned going off and having A's.

Apparently he was a zombie all day at the office after he received his D's mail message. He went crying to his assistant and told him about it. His assistant told him he had to bear the consequences of his actions and if he couldn't he should consider returning home and fixing his marriage. I saw him in the evening he didn't seem so bad. He had something to eat and left.

His mother came over today. She was all upset. I think they had an argument with WH yesterday. She was mumbling about how he was going on about his unhappiness for years.(Since he strayed). I told her I loved her son and didnt want to divorce or separate but I didnt know how long this could last. I know that she genuinly doesn't want this family to break up. She knows deep down her son wont be able to find someone like me who can put up with his capricious behaviour and provide him like me.

WH told his assistant he hadn't made up his mind about anything yet. I'm not sure of the state of his A. He seems to be talking to more people around him nowadays. Maybe its because he isn't talking so much with OW? or is this wishful thinking? I suppose I need to wait some more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by yay:
<strong>I have tried very hard to be the way he wants me to be, however he wants someone who will without question obey and aggree to everything he says. One must never ever ever disagree with him on any issue. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yay - I'm not sure how to incorporate this need of his into guidance for you. It's completely unreasonable.

What's your view on this? Can you live with somebody so selfish? MB concepts require a Policy of Joint Agreement. Only third world cultures harbor such dominance.

Hopefully, you're exaggerating a bit. If he is as conflicted as you describe, I bet he has it within him to second guess his whims. If he didn't, he wouldn't be confused right now. Instead, he'd be sure.

I suggest you be the way he NEEDS you to be, not the way he wants you to be. Just like being a parent. Tough love. Perhaps he'll respect you.

WAT

Tomorrow is New Years eve, and the completely incapacitated (purposefully?) WH is not even acknowledging it. He will not ask us our plans or make any for the family. He has disregarded his childrens wishes to spend it as a family and is avoiding any talk about it. He is going to be at his mothers house alone with them. MIL invited me to their house today. I told her it was very kind of her but we would not be able to come because this invitation had to come from WH. Since he was not interested in spending it with his kids and he was ignoring his D's deepest sincerest wishes then he would have to be alone. WH has not even written back to D or mentioned her letter. He has been showering her with affection in the hope that the topic will never come up and he will win her sympathy. He will probably drink enough booze to fall asleep at 9:00 pm and slip further into a depression. I am really upset that he can be so insensitive and inconsiderate and manipulative. I am keeping away so that I do not say anything I'll regret later on. I hope this is just a mood swing and he may become more sensible after New Years, but I worry if it is all calculated and he is sending us negative messages(!) by ignoring New Years. Showing with his moves what he cannot say? i.e; I do not want to consider reconciliation, I'd rather be away with OW. What a way to enter a New Year?

Well, the holiday is finally over and tomorrow is a new work day. I was all worked up about new years eve and really believed WH would just let it pass by <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The morning of new Years eve he called and said he wanted to come over at lunch and spend the day with us. He came over with gifts and a letter for each one of us. The kids letters were about how he loved them and wished them success in the new year. Mine was odd. I couldn't tell whether he was wishing a reconciliation or a divorce. He mentioned his love and respect and that he would always be aware of his responsibilities. He also said that he wished an aggreement to end our feelings becoming further deteriorated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I took this opportunity to tell him that we(me and the kids) looked forward to a year where we would take positive steps towards restoring our family. I told him we loved him and wanted to leave the distressing events in 2003 and make a fresh new start. WH was negative. He said, 'no, no, no, I can't. Too much damage has been done. I don't have faith it can be fixed.' So I stepped back and said, 'well let's leave it at that, but if you are not thinking positively, the arrangements here with us and the kids are going to have to change. I will have to put different rules because your behaviour now is giving the kids and myself false hope and I will not allow them being disillusioned once more'. Lunch was completely silent. After lunch I let him watch tv with D while I took my coffee and went upstairs. He wanted me to sit with them. I said later. He was following me with his eyes. He sent D up and she asked me to come downstairs. When I came, he sent D away and started to talk. We talked for at least 4-5 hours. It was exhausting. By the time the conversation was over, he had told me that he had decided to come back home several times but changed his mind the next day because he was scared of reconciliation. He said he was also scared to divorce. I said he didn't know anything. Basically he has no idea what he is doing or is a very good actor. He has these fantasies about utopic divorce arrangements without court and with constant family activities. I told him these would not be expected if he was thinking negatively. I was very consistent. I told him we were thinking positively and would be happy if he decided he wanted to come back and we could start talking this through and take one step at a time to restore the family. He said he was ashamed of A and acknowledged it was wrong. I didn't at this point ask what the status the A was at because I wasn't sure I'd be getting the correct answer and plus we hadn't yet decided on reconciliation. We had some dinner and he left at about 10pm. As he was leaving, I told him to think positively. It wasn't a pessimistic evening,though no steps towards reconciliation were taken either. He has been around and doing things with the us since as well though this topic hasn't been brought up again. He has gone on one of his business trips again till Wednesday. This bothers me a lot, but I realize I am in no position to say anything right now. I have to just let it pass at face value and not brood on it. That evening he complained a lot about how he hated being at his mothers house and that he frequently argued with his parents about the status quo. He seems genuinly confused. Do I carry on for a while more with this plan A, being nice and trying to get him to want to come back, or do I change tactics now? I don't want to instigate a negative response if he is really considering coming back? But then again I'm not sure I understand what he is considering. Positive or negative?
Help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

You're doing a good job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Basically he has no idea what he is doing or is a very good actor.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I vote for the "no idea" explanation.

Very, very typical.

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A.

But, Plan A is a LOT more than "being nice." In fact, "being nice" is secondary. Being nice can also be enabling. Sometimes you have to invoke boundaries and take a stand. Yes, you're walking a tight-rope and it's real scarry. You frequently question what's the right thing to do? Right?

You're normal.

Please read all you can about Plan A - especially posts from others.

WAT

Hi yay,

I went back and read your story.It is similar to mine but I am surprised at how long this all has been going on for you.Why would you still be in Plan A after all this time? That is a long time for that stage and I personally wouldn't have waited that long.I am in Plan B now and it has helped tremendously.Your WH still sounds just as confused as EVER and maybe,just maybe ,it is because you haven't shut off the enabling system at home?

He hasn't had any feeling that he may lose you and the kids if you are still open and talking with him frequently.Judging by your posts,my feeling is that I would get that Plan B letter composed.You have done a great job of being there in Plan A and talking all this time but I say enough of that.

Just a thought.

O

yay - I agree with Octobergirl that Plan B may be what is needed - once we're convinced your Plan A is complete. Remember this was brought up in your earlier post?

What about the Plan A letter I recommended? I strongly recommend you write one - this can tie in a bow your existing Plan A. After that, the Plan B letter will be easy - if it's needed. After this length of time, and the apparent good influence your Plan A has had so far, your Plan A letter could very effectively set the stage for Plan B - assuming a relatively short period of time would transpire between them.

I understand you're located someplace other than North America - right? - so counseling with the Harley's may not be ideal for you, but it could also very well save your marriage. But for today, please read the recent post by mimi1254 here on GQ II. Your husband is doing the same things her husband was - sitting squarely on top of the fence for a loooong time.

WAT

I did think about Plan B'ing but it just doesn't feel right yet. Maybe I am scared of pushing him away. I have a feeling and also get the impression that A is also going sour. OW seems to be experiencing problems about A with her bosses. If this is the case maybe I should carry on Plan A a bit more. I got very ill just after New Years. the emotional stress took its toll and I was in bed for about a week with a bad cold and asthmatic cough triggered by stress. WH happened to be away for 2 days. However he called me 3 times a day to ask how I was and was I feeling better. Another interesting thing is he showed his mother the letter D wrote him just prior to New Years. Why would he show it to his mother when he knows how much she wants reconciliation if he is not planning to reconcile? The letter does not help his argument at all. He has been insisting he buy me a new telephone for the past ten days. The kids go on the net and we choose the top of the range model. Apparently he has bought it! Comments plse!

Do not think of PLAN B as pushing him away. Think of PLAN B as being the next step in the process of working towards marital reconciliation.

I know exactly how you feel, though. I've been there. However, it seems like my FWH had to realize that I might really be gone before he got scared enough to fight to get me back. Also, he had to really see what it was like to only have the OW. Looking back I probably enabled his A by hanging on with PLAN A too long.

The OW was getting the full buffet and while I was only getting the crumbs. Think of your new phone as being the crumbs. You deserve more than a new phone.

Hang in there.

Thanks mimi,
I read your post about your success. It is truly inspiring. How I wish it could be true for me as well. When do I know it is right to Plan B? I am in Plan A but WH does know the boundaries and conditions for coming back. It's not like we are all over him. We are just showing him the way back, he knows the door is open and he also knows that we love him and would be very happy if he decided to come back. Should I wait some more before going completely NC with him because we live in a different country, very different culture and it would be very difficult with the kids and all to go completely dark around here. It is a tiny,tiny,tiny society. I am trying my best to let him know our true feelings without being pushy or appearing that i will let him trample all over us. He won't really talk to anyone. He won't tell his mother anything, this is why I can't understand his showing the letter from D to her. That letter was very emotional and very effective coming from a 13 year old D to her father. If he didn't want to come back, he wouldn't show it to his mother would he? Is he so in a fog that nothing he says or does can be taken as indication for true motives? I don't know, now I am in a fog too!!!! I just wish I knew what he wanted to do. Is his pride just so strong that he can't come back. His alternative is a divorcee living in a different country with problematic kids. Here his whole status, image, house, home, kids everything! He said on New Years that me insisting we stay separate for a while made it very difficult for him to come back. Does this sound like pride?

Why are you insisting that he stay separate for awhile? If you are in PLAN A (I'm a strong believer in sticking to THE PLAN), it's OK for him to come home to live with you. The more he is with you, the more opportunity you have to do YOUR PLAN. Then once you can't take it any longer and your love bank for him is running dry, then do PLAN B. PLAN B is also encouraged as a next step when it becomes too painful for you because he is not getting rid of the OW, PLAN B is also for when he is trying to choose between you and her. The OW will typically loose.

I wouldn't make too much of anything your WH does while he is in the fog. Who knows what showing the letter means?

I insisted he stay away for awhile when &#305; found out his A had been going on despite the fact that he said it had been over a year ago. I was very angry and hurt and I knew that by using his charm he would cover up the incidence as quickly as possible and carry on with his ways. i.e. stay on the fence. In a way I tried to push him to make a real choice not just a pretend choice where he could carry on manipulating all. It has been two months and I have made it clear to him that I do not wish for a divorce and this separation was not meant to lead to divorce in any way, however the A had to come to and end. I have also made it clear we expect him to end A and come back to where he belongs and is loved. Circumstances led it to this. WH had been lying too much and for too long. I suppose every case is different in its own way. WH has been staying at his mothers house for 2 mos. He can afford a place but will not do it on the grounds that it will not go down well with his kids. He carries on living in a condition which according to him is very very uncomfortable. OW is physically unavailable while he is here. That means he only gets to see her if he still is (or she still is for that matter?)about twice a month. The remaining contact (&#305; do not know to what extent) is via e-mail or telephone. It seems like he is trying to decide between W or OW. The trouble is, she is no replacement to us at all! and I'm pretty sure he knows this already.