Ol' 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You know, I'm not really sure. What I want right now is to get control of my life. To get my life untangled from this mess. I just can't stand being mixed up with my wife right now while she's going through all of this garbage.

So my focus tonight and tomorrow is on deciding what it is I have to do to accomplish that. I have to figure out what I can and cannot tolerate right now. If I will only find peace through total separation, instead of this "just not living together or talking to each other, but still putting faith and trust in my wife that she won't cause more hurt" situation, then how do I get from here to there?

Can I really get there while she now has $6000 of credit cards being sent to her new address, where I'll never see how much of my money she might be throwing away?

Can I still get there while trusting her to take care of her part of our financial responsibilities?

Can I still get there as long as it depends her keeping promises?

Can I still get there when she has herself convinced that she doesn't want to put any work into our marriage?

I don't know right now. It sure seems like a heck of an obstacle course though. Especially when it's on top of a minefield full of betrayals and lies. It's really hard to trust that she'll do the right things. It's really hard to feel safe, and confident, and whole, when I'm continuing to leave so much control of those feelings in the hands of a woman that seems to be completely out of control.

So who do I want to be? I want to be a man with a good job, a 4 bedroom house, a nice car, 2 cuddly cats, and a wonderful Chocolate Lab (DONE!). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I want to be a man who is responsible and stable, both financially and emotionally. I want to be a man that is fun to be around, who has energy and spirit, who is thoughtful and caring, and who is respected by friends, family, and co-workers.

I'm just not sure how much of that I can be as long as I'm still tangled up with this person that my wife has turned into.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Uncomfortably Numb:
It's really hard to feel safe, and confident, and whole, when I'm continuing to leave so much control of those feelings in the hands of a woman that seems to be completely out of control.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is always in your hands. not just now. but when things are working well in your marriage, too. always accept responsibility for your own feelings. you can be a victim or not. which do you prefer?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So who do I want to be? I want to be a man with a good job, a 4 bedroom house, a nice car, 2 cuddly cats, and a wonderful Chocolate Lab (DONE!). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I want to be a man who is responsible and stable, both financially and emotionally. I want to be a man that is fun to be around, who has energy and spirit, who is thoughtful and caring, and who is respected by friends, family, and co-workers.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you're further ahead in this dumb game than you realize. these are powerful statements. now what will you do about them? the thing is, whether or not you marriage survives it's good to be these things. in either case, you're defining your own success here. stay along these lines and you will do well. i suggest you look up the really long thread by a member named 'a lost soul.' he doesn't post much now, but his marriage didn't survive and i consider him to be one mb's greatest success stories.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm just not sure how much of that I can be as long as I'm still tangled up with this person that my wife has turned into. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">one of the things that helped me was realizing that i am not defined by my marriage nor by my relationship with my wife. it's the other way around. you'll be amazed what you can do while you're tangled in a mess ... as long as you choose to do so. living a principled life takes practice.

Well, it just feels like she's pulling me down with her.

Do I really have control of my emotions when I'm still hoping for reconciliation?

Do I really have control of my finances when I have to depend on someone I don't even trust?

Maybe the first question is what Plan B is all about. Put those hopes out of my mind, they aren't real anymore. Move on with my life without her, and don't even worry about if she'll come back or not. Somehow, I seem to see that as "acting single", which I don't feel like doing anyway. I don't know...

And I know this doesn't matter, but it seems ridiculous to me anyway. Between 9pm last night and 8am this morning, another 500 minutes of use went onto the cell phone. That's over 8 hours of use in an 11 hour period! LOL! Yes, that'll be the last time I worry about it, unless I find out that she never changed the account over to her name.

Anyway, that last thing about me, respect, that's why I'm having so many problems with this whole thing. Above all else, I try to treat people with respect. Respect for their feelings, their ideas, their opinions, their property, their space, you name it. Thus, I prefer to be treated with respect as well, and I get increasingly upset when I feel like I'm being disrespected, especially if it's the same person doing the same things.

So it's very difficult for me to tolerate all of this stuff when I feel that it's prolonged, repeated, massively disrespectful towards me. Plus I find it increasingly difficult to maintain respect for myself when I feel like I'm just sitting her taking it, or even worse, appearing to condone it.

I've made my feelings known, both about my emotions and my boundaries. Yet...it just doesn't feel like I've done much of anything to "stand up for myself".

Still struggling with an active brain and powerful emotions...

OH! I FORGOT!

In a way, she actually DID answer the question about what she was waiting for. It's just that she didn't answer it while we talked about our M. Instead, she answered it when the topic of finances came up. Once we'd pretty much wrapped up the M talk, I asked her "So how do you feel about our finances then?" and she replied with...

"Well, I guess we could wait a while until we get some stuff paid off..."

Hmmm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

------------------------

Then there's the other disturbing information. Sorry, I'm just recalling some of these things.

I asked how the kids were doing. She said that the oldest has really calmed down a lot, losing a lot of her "attitude", except what's more normal for a 15 year old girl. Then she said that the youngest seems a lot happier. We had grown concerned that, when something used to trouble her, she'd tell a grandma, and then grandma would tell us. I guess that now she's becoming more comfortable coming to mommy when she's upset. She described it as her finally feeling safe that mommy would be there for her, and talk to her, and spend time with her. Also, I noticed that my wife's complexion, which was just a few long term nagging spots, had really cleared up in this past month since she left.

True or not, it looks and sounds like everyone is a lot less stressed, a lot more comfortable, and a lot happier there than they were here.

I wanted to say to her about the youngest, but didn't, that maybe if mommy would have brought her home more than one night a week, and not spent 3.5 of the 4 hours she then saw her each week on the computer, that maybe she'd have been happier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

------------------------

Oh, and when she mentioned the work I'd done around the house....grrr...

She's ticked at ME for what WE didn't get done here that I'VE done myself since she left? Then she tells me about all of the effort she's putting into organizing and cleaning over there, which she rarely ever did here!

------------------------

Last thing for now...

It's really tough to make a decision here when everyone that I've talked to who knows here keeps telling me that I should file for divorce. My parents, her mom, two good friends, and now even her sister!

All of these people that know her well, who've seen who she's been and who she appears to be now, ALL seem to think that I need to at least protect myself, if not just plain move on.

So now I'm just a confused mess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi UN,

I posted to you once a long time ago,now and I also spent the better part of the last hour reading all your posts.

Why are you not in Plan B? It seems to me that you are still posting and spinning your wheels about the same old stuff.Maybe with a few added issues since then but my feeling is that Plan B,no contact,would be a good idea.You are spending a great deal of time thinking/analyzing WW(judging by your posts)and I can tell you that going to Plan B was SO freeing for me!

I stopped analyzing my WH thoughts & actions,stopped considering WH calls,e-mails and whatever and disconnected myself from all that bs.What a relief for me and for my kids.They now see a more happier and in control mommy.I vowed to let my WH go and let that homewrecker try to meet his needs from another country.I also made it known to him in my actions and stance that I was done "pleading" and that I am now a stronger person and I will make it with or without him.I personally do not think Plan A is where you should be right now.

Like Dr.Phil asks: "Is this working for ya?"

Are you any more clear on what YOU want in life? Are YOU any stronger about putting yourself FIRST? Are you still letting your WW actions and words get the better of you? IMHO,I think you need to jump off the merry go round for awhile. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

October

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you any more clear on what YOU want in life? Are YOU any stronger about putting yourself FIRST? Are you still letting your WW actions and words get the better of you? IMHO,I think you need to jump off the merry go round for awhile.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true...so true...and so many of you wonderful people here have done so much to try to help me with that.

It's clear that I'm still finding it so difficult to do that. I'm so afraid of letting go, for fear that I'll lose everything, my heart, my dreams, my strength, whatever.

I'd like to share some observations about myself. I am very analytical and reasonably intellectual. I like to think and plan and I'm rarely comfortable making decisions unless I'm sure I've checked everything I possibly could.

But more importantly, I've made quite a lot of stupid decisions in my adult life. I've done enough stupid things that, just by the odds, I should probably have died 2-3 times before my wife and I "got serious" about 6.5 years ago.

So I find it very hard to let go, to detach, from anything until I'm sure there's no other choice, which is usually long after it's already been taken away or left. But to make matters worse, in many ways, my wife saved my life.

Her presence, her love, and her strength helped guide me out of a long pattern of very self-destructive behaviors. I wouldn't even be half the man I am today if it weren't for her, of this I am sure.

Maybe today I'm still half the man I need to be. Maybe she fell in love with the out-of-control addict that was, at the very least, wild and crazy and fun and exciting. Well, I never want to go back to being that person. EVER! And maybe one of the many things that I'm afraid of is the fear that I won't be able to maintain the healthy and responsible lifestyle that our marriage and family have brought me to.

I just wanted to share that, and again, I really appreciate everyone's words and thoughts and help.

ARGH!!

I just typed this LONG response and it disappeared!

I will have ti try again UN.SOrry.

O

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Tis' okay. I'm in and out while I finally finish up a MAJOR project here at the house that was started in March of 2000. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Well, not finish totally, but finish step 2 of 3. The last part requires help, and being alone and all... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And I forgot to add that I'm looking forward to whatever you almost posted O. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ok,lets try this again.

Basically what I said before was that you should step off the ride for awhile and take care of you.Because you go into Plan B doesn't mean that you are giving up or giving in or even through with it all,just that you need a break.Let go of WW for NOW.

Face your fears.You have had an adventurous and carefree past so you should be able to do this,let her go and see what happens.I faced my biggest fear and that was facing the possibility of not being with my H and not saving my marriage after being together for 20 years.I have become a stronger person for it whether or not my marriage survives, I will have dealt with something and grown from something that I have always feared.

You have said that you may not be able to maintain the healthy and responsible lifestyle that your family has given you but that part is a mess right? So take what you have learned so far with you but don't spend any more time trying so hard to analyze and make things happen.Try to be at peace within yourself and to do that,you need to be away from your WW for now,be at a distance to see things more clearly.

You know I really had such a nice response to you before but now it is all jumbled! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> My computer must have hiccuped or something.

Anyway,little by little each day I see myself getting a bit stronger,my self esteem coming back and my self worth returning because I have decided to be in Plan B and not be dragged down by WH actions and words.I have stopped considering all the e-mails and cell phone calls and this and that,whatever.I feel enormously relieved not to be tied up in what WH is doing.I am taking a break for ME.

I am going to post this now to see if it works. I know I will have more to say later to you.

October

Thank you, and I agree.

It just takes time I guess. Something I seem to have an awful lot of lately. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I just started another book fo myself. Based on suggestions from many people here, I researched a lot of things, and I believe I found a line of thinking that really suits me, so we'll see on that.

Oh yeah, I remembered something else, just thoughts. In talking to my family, we discussed what I felt I would want in a spouse, both before I was married and now. Well, through all of the ideas and such, even though I haven't been a very religious person, it became clear that I desired someone with what our family would call traditional midwestern Christian values. (no offense to anyone who isn't Christian or from the midwest) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, thinking back on a lot of things, I sure didn't live my life that way prior to being with my wife. But neither did she, or has she since we've been together. Again, I haven't been very religious, so not much of a church-goer. But even when that's been mentioned in passing (especially since the oldest daughter has been going to church with a friend every week because she wants to), my wife has been at a minimum, uninterested, and attimes, extremely resistant.

So, who knows still. Maybe she and I are very different , and that could be my doing. Maybe I played the part of one thing that attracted her, but once we were married, she saw that I was very different indeed, when given the right opportunities.

Hmm...this is kind of fun to learn about myself too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi again,

I too have longed for someone with a more,"spiritual" sense,shall we say since my WH has been a self described agnostic his whole life.

It's funny but when I first found out about my WH A, he started telling me silly things like how the OW's family friend who is a psychic(give me a break) told OW's mother that my WH would be coming into their lives and that "cosmic forces" were working blah blah bah.What a joke.His whole life he doesn't give a shred of credibility to anything other than scientific means to the world and all of sudden this homewrecker has insipred in him this new found otherwordly way in which they have met.SICK!

This OW family is a bunch of wackos.No wonder OW is preying on married men.

Anyway, I digress.I am finding out a lot about me in this whole process and what is becoming more clear to me even though I already knew it is that I am a very strong woman,I DESERVE better than what I was handed in the past few months and I WILL be OK with or without that adulterer(WH).I will not let WH have that power over me EVER! No one shall.Because I am ME,afterall and I am a worthy,loving, caring,HONEST person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That last post by you sounds pretty insightful.You are opening up to yourself a little and to your potential and to possibility.Doesn't that feel great?! To know that even though you may be enduring one of lifes most painful experiences,that you still have YOURSELF to fall back on? That you will survive?

October <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Sometimes it sure doesn't feel like I can survive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

This morning, I woke up at about 4am, and by 6:30, I still couldn't drag myself out of bed. I just didn't want to get up and have to face life. Even when I finally did, for whatever reason, I just suddenly burst into tears and cried my eyes out for about 5 minutes straight. Just silly...

--------------------------------------------------

Yet another thing I remembered from the talk with my W that has added to my concerns. While talking finances, when she kept bringing up the idea of putting her paychecks into her own account and sending me money, it became clear that she would like to have more money for herself. She actually said...

"Well I can't live on this for long. I haven't been paying <her> anything for letting us stay there. All I've done is buy food and stuff, and that takes up all of the money I get. I'll never be able to pay her anything or afford an apartment like this."

With all of the other questions and suggestions, she made it completely clear to me that she doesn't feel responsible for anything more than her cell phone, her car insurance, her student loans, and a part of both (1st and 2nd) mortgage payments. But she could never pay her 35% share of the mortgages and still be able to pay the cost of another residence. So the "separation" she's really asking for is to be able to have enough money to pay for all normal living expenses (food, rent, utilities, etc) out on her own. Yet for her to accomplish that, I would have to accept responsibility for about 97% of our monthly debt payments (not other expenses) on about 65% of our combined income, just so that they could live apart from me.

Anyway, I do see the good in that idea, as far as her actually having to "make it on her own". Then again, she'll never have to "make it on her own" as long as she's living for free in someone else's house. But either way, I'm putting a lot of faith into promises from someone I don't trust, and in the hope for saving a marriage that is far from strong.

So, financially speaking, would the MB/Plan B idea be to accept this kind of total financial division?

Even if it leaves me unfairly burdened with bills, and leaves us not truly dividing our actual marital income?

Does that sound like a reasonable sacrifice to make in an effort to hang on to our M?

Am I just making too much out of this right now?

Edit: P.S. I also see the simplicity in it because, if we did get divorced, I'd still have to worry about all of those same debts by myself if I hope to keep the house.

<small>[ December 29, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

Quick Summary: She's asking me to free her from the responsibility of expenses that we agreed to take care of together when we got them, so that she can have more money to do whatever she wants.

Regardless of whether you are in PLAN A or PLAN B, you've got to protect yourself financially from your WW. She is like an alcoholic now, irresponsible and craving for her next drink.

As the man of the household, meeting an important need of financial responsibility, protect yourself and your WW from herself. Do not let her get away with contributing to your financial ruin.

This is a typical side effect of As. My FWH and I are struggling to recover from the financial effects of his A. He left and bought a condo which now sits empty. He had a fantasy of having a "bachelor pad" to entertain the OW but ended up living in her ghetto house. They go crazy. You need to try to be the sane one here.

Get an antidepressant from your doctor ASAP. They work. You are in a war here and have to be ready for the battles.

Thanks mimi.

I've been on an Anti-D for 5 weeks now, ever since she decided to move out, about 4 days before she actually did.

As for money, I'm not trying to make a huge issue about it. But it's progressing in a direction where I feel like I'll be forced to have some kind of signed agreement in order to protect myself.

Sure, I could ask for and receive all of the current credit cards, to make sure they aren't run up. However, she has gotten 2-3 new offers every week for months, and so could easily apply for more without my knowing.

The fact is that I don't want to cheat her here. I actually want to give her control of her own money and problems. But I'm not comfortable giving too much away without some assurances that I won't be financially hurt the way I've been emotionally hurt.

I would recommend a legal separation. That's how Steve H. advised me although I was in PLAN A. You've got to protect yourself from her!!!!

Now if I can find a simple and inexpensive way to to get a separation agreement done.

The lawyer I've talked to would charge me the same retainer fee for a Legal Separation as for a Divorce, and if I was going to pay that much, I'd just file for Divorce. However, I have, FINALLY, decided that I will not shell out that kind of money unless I am absolutely sure that I am 100% ready to end my marriage.

And I'm not, no matter what friends and family have to say about it...

talk to another lawyer. and then another. and then another until you find one that can help you on better terms.

The lawyer I've talked to would charge me the same retainer fee for a Legal Separation as for a Divorce, and if I was going to pay that much, I'd just file for Divorce.
A retainer fee is simply how much you have to put up front to retain his services. The amount of the retainer does not mean it will cost that much. It will probably be (a lot) more.
Most lawyers will probably want about the same retainer as others in the area.

Any charges are itemized and subtracted from the retainer. When the retainer runs out, they either want more or will bill you.
Any leftover is returned to you.

For my divorce, my lawyer wanted $500 as a retainer and $129 for the filing fees.
Would have been exactly the same for a separation but a separation would have cost less overall because there is generally less work to do.

However, I have, FINALLY, decided that I will not shell out that kind of money unless I am absolutely sure that I am 100% ready to end my marriage.
And the retainer will probably be a drop in the bucket compared to how much money it will cost you when you total it up.

<small>[ December 29, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>