So what I'm hearing is that many of these thoughts and feelings are normal, common for this situation,and that's what Plan B is for. Is that right?

That's why I've posted here so much. This is the only place, other than my weekly counseling sessions, where people are advising me to do something other than file papers. If only my counselor applied the MB principles, or even seemed familiar with them at all. He's a proponent of the "Divorce Busting" ideas, but when I mentioned SAA and HN/HN, he said he'd never heard of them.

Anyway, I really need to get my thoughts straight. I really need to find my decision, and then take action.

My heart tells me not to take such a drastic step as to file anything, that even any financial losses that might result are nothing compared to the commitment of marriage.

My mind keeps telling me that she's done; that she could not possibly care any less about me or our marriage; that she's just stalling to have the chance to get herself "set"; that the first month apart was to develop stronger ties outside of our marriage, and now she's working on hiding herself and protecting herself from any further action on my part; that she's just waiting until our decent sized tax refund comes in so that she can manipulate me into giving her an unfair share, and then drop the bomb.

I've got 2 days, but I'm hoping to be sure before the end of today, so that I can cancel my appointment with the lawyer if that's the decision I make.

Thinking too much...heh...I've been told that many times by pretty much everyone who's ever spent much time "hearing" my thoughts and opinions...heh.

what you're going through is normal. sadly. even at the times when things were progressing between me an my wife (we were still living apart so there was a lot of unknown) i had thoughts of my life one day without her.

in fact, i remember quite clearly one evening my wife and i were having dinner at a restaurant and—while i was ordering—i couldn't help but wonder what it would be like to date our server.

i even began rehearsing a 'please be fair to me and let me go' speech.

what you're going through is hard. it's costly in so many ways. at the time of my separation, we had a mortgage we couldn't afford and the last thing either of us needed was to incur more revolving debt. she spent $6000 to rent her apartment and—to cover the added living expenses i had to take on myself—i dropped $4000 on my credit card in seven months.

for some dumb reason, my last post submitted itself as i was typing. i must have hit the [enter] key.

to finish ... the $10k (and the some) that we spent to live apart is small compared to the price of divorce. granted, my wife didn't do some of the stupid things yours is doing.

i guess to get back to my orginal point ... it's really a good thing that you're having the thoughts you are because it will help you detach in the ways you need to make the mb principles work ... both plans A and B. it's the pendulum swinging to the other side ... now just let it right itself. once it does, move forward even and steady.

Hi UN,

I completely understand where you are coming from.I too am not sure if I even like my WH let alone love him anymore after what he has and continues to do.Those thoughts plus divorce cross my mind multiple times a day if not each hour.

BUT the idea of Plan B is to step away from the problem and see it from afar,perhaps get a new perspective but only AFTER you have stopped thinking about it and focus on you first for awhile.There is no rush to do ANYTHING but that right now.Cancel the lawyer if you are going to do anything *legal.If you are going just for a consult,then that is a good idea.Please remember that what you set up legally NOW may come back to haunt you in divorce procededings if you are not careful.

For me,being in Plan B has helped me to see things more clearly.If I am not caught up in the mind games and the who what where of my WH then I can start thinking soley about me.Remember I told you about me facing one of my biggest fears,possibly being without my WH who I have been with more than HALF my life? I faced it and now it doesn't hold that power over me as much.It was a big block wall preventing me from seeing who I was married to at this point,which is an adulterer who continues to put that homewrecker first.

Again,Plan B is about stepping back,taking a break from the madness and focusing on you.You don't have to make any drastic decisions except what you are going to have for breakfast.But you have to put all the limits and financial stuff in ORDER then be quiet within yourself.

I too have struggled with the idea of how my WH could put that OW first,taking time to be with her and her family(grrrr).Instead of us.Calmly walking through this as if we will all get over it in time.Well,I am not going to make it easy for WH.

I sometimes wonder if Plan A doesn't prostitute us BS's sometimes.I have always felt a limit to what I am willing to give of myself to WH but then there is a time to stop and retain some dignity and integrity.That's why I am in Plan B now perhaps sooner than MB principles would have me but I feel it is right.

I wanted to say more to you but currently,I can't see your posts so I may post back after this one.

O

Well, I've already had the first legal consultation, with a couple of follow-up phone calls. So this appointment would only be to take legal action. I just want to be sure I'm doing the right thing for me right now, whichever decision I make.

Here's a draft of what I've thought of sending my wife regarding a bigger separation...

--------------------------------------------------

I've thought a lot about this, what you were asking about, and what I feel would be good for me, and here are my ideas.
</font>

1. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Paychecks: We keep our own incomes in our own separate accounts. I've switched the type of service on our joint checking account such that there will not be any fees if there are no Direct Deposits. Thus, that feature can be changed by both of us without any penalty. From those separate accounts, we will each pay our own bills.</font></li>
2. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Child Support: You need to get the address changed on this so that I don't have to drop the checks off for you anymore. I will make no claim to this money as a means of paying our joint debts or expenses.</font></li>
3. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cell Phone: You need to get this changed to your name for financial accountability, and to your address for billing, as soon as possible, and no later than the end of this current billing period (1/21/04).</font></li>
4. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Credit Cards: You need to get the billing address on Account #1, #2, and #3 changed, and take full responsibility for the repayment of these. I will accept Account #4 as my responsibility.</font></li>
5. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cars: The insurance is set to renew in February, so before the end of January, you need to obtain your own separate insurance to cover your car. I'll keep insurance coverage on my car. If and when it becomes necessary, we will also be responsible for the registration of our own cars.</font></li>
6. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Consumer Loan: I'll take responsibility for this, since the remaining amount owed on this account, plus the amount owed on Credit Card Account #4, is about equal to the amount owed on Credit Card Account #1.</font></li>
7. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortgages: These belong to both of us. The 1st mortgage payment is about $$$$ per month, and the 2nd mortgage payment is about $$$ per month. Based on our incomes, I feel that you should cover about 35-40% of these payments each month. There are three ways we can handle this...
   1) You can send me a payment for an amount between $$$ and $$$ on or before the first of each month.
   2) You can take responsibility for the 2nd mortgage payment each month, in the amount of $$$.
   Note: This amount falls squarely in the middle of the range listed in the previous idea.
   3) I take responsibility for both of these payments. In exchange, you agree that I will owe you no money of any kind from my income to "offset" the difference in our incomes.
   Note: If I paid her half of the difference in our incomes, it would almost be enough to cover the 2nd mortgage payment.</font></li>
8. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Living Expenses: I'll take responsibility for all of the expenses related to living in and maintaining the house. This includes all power, water, gas, telephone, garbage collection, security system, homeowners association dues, and so forth.</font></li>
9. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Taxes: We file taxes for the year of 2003 as "Married Filing Jointly". When the refund comes in, we use the money to reduce our joint debt liability. Any money left over is then divided equally between us.</font></li>
10. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Rest: You agree that I be allowed to change the security code at the house so that any visits to the house are done with my full knowledge and approval. In exchange, I agree that you have every right to request and arrange a visit to the house to check on the status of our joint personal property contained therein, and that I will neither remove nor sell any joint property during this separation. Additionally, we both agree to be open to the possibility of negotiating and amending this agreement, at reasonable intervals (on or about the 20th day of each month), to insure that each of our best interests are continuing to be served.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's the framework of my thoughts. My hope is to provide each of us with the kind of separation that will allow us to concentrate exclusively on our individual lives during this time apart.

--------------------------------------------------

So there you go. I'm mainly looking for opinions on wording, as I feel that each of these issues needs to be addressed.

<small>[ December 31, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

Hi UN,

Sounds pretty good so far but I have one question:

Would this agreement be something you could live with if a Judge were to make it legally binding should you divorce? If you have any doubts about any of it,revise it.Make sure all bases are covered.

Also,what about child custody and visitation? I can't see your post so I don't remember if you mentioned that.

O

Other than her giving up any claim to our marital home, yes, I can live with this. In fact, this is basically an outline of where we'd probably be in thr result of a Divorce, again, except for her releasing her part ownership of the house.

As for the kids, nope, nothing in there. They're not my kids by law, and I don't really know if I want to try to "force" any kind of visitation in there. I think I'd be much better off just letting that one go, and just trying to ask for time, or send gifts, or call on the phone without any promises or pressure. The fact is that, if I have to let go, I'll let them all go, and just ask to be a part of holidays, or whatever the kids might request. In the end, they are her kids, she is their mom, and I'm just her 2nd husband that, hopefully, they'd still like to be around.

<small>[ December 31, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

One way or the other, Friday is my detachment day, legally or otherwise. But until then...

GEEZ! Now she's gone and booked a hotel room here in town for this Saturday night? What the heck innocent reason could that be for? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pardon moi?

Is WW staying at a hotel to be away from you or the other reason?

I forgot the kids were your WW so I guess that issue isn't going to be hard to solve.

O

Well, she hasn't lived with me in over a month, and she and each of the kids have their own separate rooms where they're living right now, so I don't see any logical reason for it.

Heck, even if it was for tonight, I could at least see that it might be to avoid drinking and driving if she was to be celebrating the New Year.

But on Saturday? In town? What possible reason could she have for needing a completely private bedroom and bathroom for a night?

Hmmm.Can you stake out the place or is that beneath you?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

hehe

It's not beneath me, but it'd be really difficult to do, especially without her catching me in the act of trying to catch her in the act. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Besides, the "what" is painfully obvious to me. So all I'd really learn from it is the "who". Is it the same guy from her last trip coming to town to visit? The other guy she's been calling coming to visit? Or yet some other person that lives here locally?

Plus, in our No-Fault state, this kind of evidence really wouldn't make any difference in legal terms, especially when, once again, we don't have all that much to fight over.

It's just another thing to tick me off. Another thing to make me feel like I'd be wasting my time trying to work this out. Another thing to make me feel like I'm being taken advantage of, used and abused, enabling and supporting her ability to cause me even more pain and suffering.

An hour ago, I was convinced that I'd cancel my meeting with the lawyer and just try to send that list to her. Now I just don't know why I should even bother. Now I feel like she's just a worthless piece of s*** that doesn't deserve having anything to do with me. Now...now I just wish I had never even met her.

<small>[ December 31, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

Ok, time for a deep breath.

That's why I like Plan B.It gives ME permission not to have to think about the sordid details of WS life.Even though it tries to creep back into my mind I push it right out again.

I still think you could get what you want accomplished without a lawyer but that's up to you.

Also, I was only joking about the snooping.I certainly wouldn't DEGRADE myself by even being upset.Let her do what she will but you still remain true to yourself and keep your dignity.She has certainly lost that.

O

Great timing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I sent that list to her in an email about 2 minutes ago, and just got off the phone with my lawyers office, cancelling my appointment for Friday.

If and when she responds, and we work this agreement out, I'll send the Plan B letter to her and the OM...and maybe a few (dozen) other friends and family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I sure hope I'm doing the right thing here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

un ... no matter which plan you're in, no matter whether your marriage is happy or not, only you are responsible for your emotions. you can choose to allow your wife's behavior bother your or not.

try divorcing yourself from the drama first. getting a lawyer to disolve your marriage or your financial committements isn't going to make the drama part go away if you continue to let her behavior affect you. i'm sure you know people who are divorced who exert a lot of energy through entanglements—either real, or through the work of grudges or bitterness—with their ex-spouses.

this is an opprtunity for you to shake this crap off now. this will do a couple of things:

1. if your marriage doesn't make it, you're already moving on and way ahead of the game once a divorce is final.
2. if your marriage does make it, you're a man your wife will be proud of because you're principled. she will be thankful you were able to lead her back to you when she was unable to find her way on her own.

so, enough aleady!

have a happy new year, amigo.

Thanks whippit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know you're right. I need to learn that skill, and my one hope for my life right now, above everything else, is that taking these steps will allow me to finally move in that direction.

I'm doing a fair amount of reading on something called REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy), which is based on the idea that events themselves do not cause our emotional reactions, but that it's how we think about those events that lead to those reactions.

that, coupled with a feeling of more complete separation, will (yes will) give me the tools needed to move forward from this point.

And my best wishes to you in the New Year. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Heya, Mr. UN. Just think of this as subliminal messaging:

Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B Plan B

And did I mention I think you should be in Plan B now?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

A note about finances.

Make sure that any joint accounts are CLOSED (in writing AND by phone).
Don’t simply have a name removed. If it’s closed, then the money is still owed but no new charges can be put on it.

Any amount owed on joint credit cards will be owed by BOTH parties. When she ends up not paying on the one she agreed to take, they WILL come after you.

Close the acount, get a new one and transfer the balance if you want.

This is true even in the event of divorce, if the court orders you to take this half and her to take that half but the credit card company does NOT care. If you had a card on that account, you are responsible.

This is especially true with a house.
There is title to the house and there is the mortgage.
Say the wife gets the house in a divorce.
She never gets it remortgaged in her own name. She gets behind and the mortgage co. goes after hubby, who’s name is on the mortgage (but not the title).

Thanks Chris.

I've been trying to figure that stuff out. We don't hold any credit card accounts jointly. They either have my name only or her name only. There are "2nd Cardholders" on each, much like if you added a child headed off to college to the account. But none of them were applied for jointly. None of them have information for both of us on the application. So the one in my name was applied for in my name only, and then in the little box at the bottm, I entered her name to be issued an additional card, but nothing more than her name.

The house. Yep, you've got that exactly right. With the money owed on the house compared to it's value, we'd be worse off selling it than having one person take sole ownership and refinancing it in their name. Based on incomes, there's no way she could afford to do that, but I could. But what you said is exactly what my lawyer told me. One person gives up ownership with the stipulation that the other person obtains new financing withing a certain period of time (6 months for example).

Thanks for the thoughts though. It never hurts to be more clear on what might lie ahead. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />