UN:

I dunno. I have mixed feelings about what I've read about your experiences and what you're up 2 lately:

"Basically, my comments regarding D were along the lines of letting her know that it's not what I want, that I still hope that we'll have the chance to seek some counseling to learn better and healthier ways of living together, that I still love her, and that I wish she wouldn't do this (Divorce) but that I understand what she's told me about how she feels."

I think it would have been far, far better, and a much more powerful statement against DV, if you had simply deflected the discussion away from DV, never mentioned the word, or flat out ignored even a direct 2uestion about DV if she asked one.

This all sounds so much like a self-fulfilling prophecy fueled by your reactions 2 your perceptions of what the other is doing 2 you, than YOU controlling YOUR fu2re by learning about YOUR issues.

I don't know. Maybe you should DV. But I do know this: You haven't earned a DV. I had 2 learn that the hard way (by focusing my attention inward, where the "ugliness" that put ME where *I* was really rooted). It 2k a LONG TIME (2long!) for me 2 "earn a DV", but in the process, I find I don't need one!

Your M has been in 2rmoil for a few months. I remember you saying that your R started out as an A while she was M'd 2 her previous H. That's going 2 take some real work 2 overcome - the fact that neither of you came in2 each other's life with a clean slate. Regardless, your M may or may not have gotten on2 a good footing after that, and like many marriages started having problems. But my point with all this rambling is that you need 2 look on current events as an oppor2nity for personal AND marital growth. Because you can't expect 2 restore this M or start another one without growing.

I just don't think you can effectively fight FOR your M by fighting against it. Sure, protect yourself IF she's filing. But why not fight your W and her lawyer (if she really has one) for the M with someone like Cerri or the Harleys, instead of with another lawyer? Because, in the end, I guarandangtee you that NEITHER lawyer will lose. Losing will be your job.

Sorry for the cynical post, but I think you needed it.

-ol' 2long

Thanks 2long. As for the DV discussion, it was her idea, not mine. She brought it up, and my reactions and comments were similar to what you quoted above. I repeatedly told her that DV wasn't what I wanted, that I didn't agree with it, and so forth. I asked her why, how she felt, what might be making her feel that way, and tried to discuss those thoughts, instead of how they added up to DV. But I also wanted to finish by letting her know that I had actually listened to what she had said, and that I felt like I had a better understanding of her feelings. What you quoted from me above was pretty much the last few sentences of our conversation, essentially a summary of how I felt about what had been said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This all sounds so much like a self-fulfilling prophecy fueled by your reactions 2 your perceptions of what the other is doing 2 you, than YOU controlling YOUR fu2re by learning about YOUR issues.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you may be right in this. In so many ways, so much of what has happened (before and since D-Day) feels like it's been me reacting to what she's said and done. So much so that I'm at a point where my reactions are already planned out, because I think I know beforehand what she's going to do.

But I think you're also right that I "haven't earned a DV". I know that I don't want one. I know that I want to work through my own personal issues, and hope to work through our marital issues. I just wish that I was more of a fighter...more of a "competitor"...and didn't live so much by the saying "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game".

I'm trying to put in as much effort as I can, but I often find myself hitting a wall as to just how much effort I'm willing to put in. Maybe not enough to save this M, maybe not even enough to be married. But I find myself blocked sometimes by the conditions of this "struggle".

The times in my life that I remember putting up a really good "fight", and surviving, succeeding, or winning, are when I've felt that I had a really good reason to fight, that I had access to the tools needed to win, and that I was being given a reasonably fair chance to succeed.

In this, I waver between feeling like I should even fight for this M (emotional roller-coaster), I keep coming back here trying to collect the tools necessary to "win", but usually I feel like I'm not being given a "fair chance" in the fight, based on the actions and words of my W.

I don't know if that makes much sense really, but it's the best way I can come up with for explaining myself right now.

Thanks for continuing to share your thoughts with me. I really do appreciate it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Uncomfortably Numb:
In this, I waver between feeling like I should even fight for this M (emotional roller-coaster), I keep coming back here trying to collect the tools necessary to "win", but usually I feel like I'm not being given a "fair chance" in the fight, based on the actions and words of my W.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this probably describes every bs who has ever come here. what's your point? i don't mean to be a wiseass, but what really does this boil down to for you? you can choose to do these things or choose not to do these things. what do you want to gain from this experience? once you answer this the path is right in front of you.

Plan B letter sent...and now to move forward with this portion of my life.

whippit: Well, above all else, I want to know that I can be a good father, husband, lover, and friend. So that's what I'm going to work on. I'm going to continue to learn new ideas and new skills that will make me proud of who I am, mentally, emotionally, and physically. I am going to do things that I believe to be healthy, that I believe to be the right choices for my life. I am going to live for myself, first and foremost, and allow those around me to do the same.

However my life turns out, I'm going to be in control of my decisions, my emotions, my reactions, and most of all, my happiness.

awesome answers! (and hopefully you see that your current wife doesn't have to be a part of the equation, that you can be all of those things with or without her.) my next question is 'what are you going to do to accomplish the things on your list?'

oddly enough, there's a business book that might be of some use. like we all need another book to read. Don't worry, this one is short (and cheap ... eight bucks!). it's a classic one called think and grow rich, by napoleon hill.

in it he included a list of 31 major causes of failure. while some are specifically business related (like 'lack of capital') most are universal.

like i said in my last post, once you figure out what you want the way to get there is as plain as the nose of your face. you've got the first part done. now get going on the path.

Packing up and moving forward...

Just a short update from me here. Things don't seem to be going well on the M front, and I've been finding myself much more cold and angry and distanced from my W than I have felt in the past 3-4 months. Maye this is Plan B working it's magic. I just don't find myself interested anymore in what she's doing or feeling, and and would much rrather ot even be reminded that we're still married.

So I'm packing up and moving forward. Too much stuff is still sitting around the house that was hers, or are reminders of our past life together. So I'm boxing everyting up that's not mine, or at least something I'll be using, and storing it with all of the furniture and such that remains in the rooms of the children.

It's even hard to eat sometimes, because the dishes I have are a nice set of things that we picked out and shopped for and added to ver the years together. So even that stuff is a constant reminder of the lost dreams and shattered plans we once shared. But, that's stuff in the "I'll be using" category, so it stays put. It'd get really old eating off paper plates every single meal just to avoid seeing "our dishes". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

That's it. Thanks for reading and helping me here. Best of luck to you all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

4 years
3 months
16 days
22 hours

From the time we were pronounced husband and wife around 12:30pm on October 14th, 1999; until the time I got served with the Divorce papers this morning around 10:30am on January 31, 2004.

And to top it all off, the lawyer garbage in the papers is demanding me to pay alimony, pay her $2500 attorney fees, pay both the 1st AND 2nd mortgages, and yet my W is claiming the 2nd mortgage as an expense of HERS, even though she hasn't paid it since she left 2+ months ago.

What a laugh.

Do I want to be right or do I want to be married?

You wouldn't like my answer, because every fiber of my being is urging me to go against MB principles.

We shall see.....we shall see.....

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: UN ]</small>

Hi UN,

I was actually thinking about starting a new topic to you.I wondered how you were doing after posting so much and then you kind of disappeared.

I'm sorry to hear about the D papers.Ugh.Not too surprised though.I don't think I will be all that surprised if my WH serves me because I am not going to be the one to do it that's for sure,at least not now.I don't think you have to be right OR married.It's not that simple.

You have tried very hard to help keep the marriage afloat but your WW was determined to go her own way so what else could you do? She was wrong to have done what she did,you were right to try to be there for her and yes you did want to still stay married.But now that choice is out of your hands,she has made it and as hard as it is,all you can do is accept it now.You can do the 180 list and all that but it still may not change the outcome.

Well, I just wanted you to know that I was thinking of you.Keep posting here.I'm sure everyone wants to hear from you.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have tried very hard to help keep the marriage afloat but your WW was determined to go her own way so what else could you do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just because one spouse is breaking marriage vows does not give the other spouse permission to do the same thing. "But he started it!" is really not a good excuse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was wrong to have done what she did,you were right to try to be there for her and yes you did want to still stay married.But now that choice is out of your hands,she has made it and as hard as it is,all you can do is accept it now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh, how's that again? There are still a ton of options left, here, and saying that the decision is out of UN's hands misses a huge range of possibilities.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can do the 180 list and all that but it still may not change the outcome.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No outcome is ever certain. But in each moment we can make choices that either help our marriages or hurt them. Is being served with divorce papers the death toll for the marriage? Nah. 1 in 4 couples that file for divorce stay married. Something like 18% of couples that DO divorce re-marry each other.

UN's options are far from over.

Well, I just wanted you to know that I was thinking of you.Keep posting here.I'm sure everyone wants to hear from you.

O [/QB][/QUOTE]

Just J,

I didn't expect to have my response dissected like that.You are right that any outcome is never certain which is why despite UN's efforts his WW still is plowing ahead with her desire for D.

Did I in any way suggest or type that it's completely over? NO, but like we all say here at MB, you can only change *yourself.What his WW does from here on out will be up to her,not him.He can do whatever he can to still keep the hope and still maintain his limits,do his plans as to what he needs to do to reconcile,etc but it still MAY not change the outcome(i.e D).

And where did I write that it was permissible for UN to break marriage vows?? Do not quote that which was not said either("But he started it").Is that your impression of this?

Thank you J for the attack.It was most welcome.

o

Hey now, no fighting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I think some of that was meant as a 2x4 for me too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No, I haven't done everything possible. There are still options left. I just don't know if I'm at all interested in any of them anymore. Mostly, I'd like to just lock myself back in my computer room and shut myself off from the world for a few.....years or so.

Yea, I thought I was ok with this. I even thought I was ready for divorce. But I am upset by it, hurt, depressed, angry, and everything else. All I know is that, though it seems like I'm not ready for divorce, I don't feel like I could ever take my W back either.

I was asked what would need to happen to reconcile, and I honestly couldn't think of a single thing that gave me the image of a life with her; that made me think of any chance of happiness or love with her. I thought about it on and off for hours. Heck, I've thought about it on and off for the past couple of weeks.

Do I want to be right or do I want to be married?

At this very moment in time, and I've felt the same way for these past couple of weeks, I couldn't care less about being right. I couldn't care less what she's done or hasn't done, right or wrong. I just don't want to be married.

I can speculate as to what my wife's motivations, thoughts, and feelings were when we got married, but I don't know any of that for a fact. But I have uncovered some deeply hidden memories and feelings, and I know this. I married this person for the wrong reasons. I knew it then, but denied it, and I know it now, without a doubt.

I made promises, took solemn vows, on that days 4+ years ago. To break those vows, to give up before trying everything, would be the wrong thing to do. However, I'm conflicted because I don't believe that I ever meant it. I believe that the bigger mistake, the bigger "wrong thing to do", was to marry a woman and her children, when I didn't mean it.

So what's the bigger "wrong"? Staying in a marriage that never should have been, or breaking my vows and letting the marriage go?

I don't know for sure, but I know how I feel.

Again, we'll see.....only time will tell.....

Octobergirl, I apologize. I didn't mean to attack you, and I'm sorry it came across that way. It's a combination of a number of things coming together, and I may well have read more into what you said than was actually there.

And yes, there was certainly a large fraction of what I said that was for UN to think about, rather than for you. I think he got the message, and I'm glad.

UN, you're in my thoughts and prayers tonight. Be well. And get off the computer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Just J,

I'm sorry too.I guess that having read a lot of your posts,I felt that your last reply was directed only toward mine(quotes)and it didn't sound as "comforting" as you usually respond so I was somewhat suprised.Maybe I was just a wee bit sensitive too.

Anyway,no hard feelings.Sorry for the threadjack UN. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

O

No worries O. You'd have to do a lot more than that to jack one of my threads. I may be a lot of things, but "easily distracted" isn't one of them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I guess that having read a lot of your posts,I felt that your last reply was directed only toward mine(quotes)

Yeah, I can see why you would've seen it that way. What I was actually doing was reading it the way I expected UN to read it, and responding to -that-, rather than to what you might've actually meant.

and it didn't sound as "comforting" as you usually respond so I was somewhat suprised.

Yeah, I know. And that, too, was pointed more at UN than at you. I should've made that clear while I was writing it.

Maybe I was just a wee bit sensitive too.

We all have our days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway,no hard feelings.Sorry for the threadjack UN. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks. Hi UN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O [/QB][/QUOTE]