BH&A - I'm on dangerous ground here, but I guess I'll open my mouth and see what comes out.

I think the issue is dependent more on what Class of Affair (to use a "Torn Asunder" term), time, and the commitment of both spouses involved in the recovery.

I think your feelings are valid, and probably true, if my own experience is any judge. Remember, my wife was in a 6 year affair and poised to divorce me when the affair was discovered. Continuing to this day, my wife has never volunteered any information that I did not first discover and then ask about. The latest was on her birthday recently when I discovered that a call had been placed to her cell phone from the residence of (IMHO) Satan's surrogate here in our lives. She denied knowledge of the call, then said after checking her phone that it was an incoming call that she "missed." After a few days she said that she returned the call, knows it was wrong, and said she was sorry.

The "ties" that bind are many and untangling them and freeing oneself from them take a lot of time. One of the things that is stated in "Torn Asunder" regarding timelines is that it frequently takes as long for the recovery as it took to get into and out of the affair. So, while we have made great progress in the past 19-20 months, it appears to me that we still have a long way to go.

So, the question once again devolves upon the BS to decide what their commitment level to recovery is and how long they are willing to wait in the "hope" that the OP can be out of their lives forever. Were it not for my faith in God, I'd probably throw in the towel and rid myself of the very real uncertainty. I've waited almost 2 years since the original d-day in Feb.2002, and the repetetive contacts over that time have been exhausting and devastating to my commitment to recovery. Trusting only in myself, or in my wife, would not be enough. Trusting in God is the only thing that keeps me "at it." That, plus the fact that despite it all I do love my wife. I just "wish" it were over and our "better" marriage was here already.

So I KNOW what you are feeling.

I also know that others HAVE recovered their marriages and that the WS does not have "residual love" for their OP. But in my case, as possibly in yours, we have not reached that point yet. However, what you said about your husband sending her another NC letter is most promising. It appears that she is draining her "love deposits" out of his love bank and you are on the road to getting what you desire...a husband who loves you and does not have loving feelings for the OW.

I'd go further, though, and suggest not only a NC to the OW from your husband, but a letter (or even a phone call from your husband to him) to the husband exposing the affair and telling him that he wants the OW out of his life once and for all.

It is past time that he knew what sort of woman he is married to and it is time that she got to deal with the consequences of HER infidelity. You've both tried the NC route, and her contact has said that she does NOT respect you or your husband's wishes, so it's time to "honor" her request for contact and contact both her and her husband.

The restraining order should be an indication that the "witch" is worried about her own situation and could care less about your own, or your husband's, feelings. Let the consequences of her evil choices come home to roost in her life as well. Besides, her husband deserves to know just what a liar and selfish person he is married to so HE can decide for himself IF HE wants to be married to such woman.

Returning to your marriage. God has given you the right to divorce if you want it. The key, franky, is who YOU are committed to. If it is to God, then let God take all the time He needs to "fix" your marriage, even when all you can do is simply endure the day. If it is not to God, the I hope you have enormous strength, because I doubt that I would have the requisite strength. If you won't trust God, the "how long is long enough" to wait, hope, endure, and try? Only you can answer that question. That question remains even when you do have Christ as Lord of your life, but the difference is that He also provides His strength to help us when we are weak and drained. If your husband is a Christian, then his commitment to fidelity with you is first with God. If he is not, then his commitment is only as good as his own strength, and we both know how well that served him, or my wife, in the past.

This also ties in with forgiveness. You have not forgiven your husband, at least not totally. Since you have not, you continue to dwell on the affair and your "imaginings" of how things "must have been." Since those thoughts are tied to actual events in an affair, even if they are embellished a little, they have a "grain or two" of truth in them. I think, strongly, that your husband sending a firm No Contact letter, and informing the OW's husband of the affair, will give you much needed assurance that he IS out of the affair and much of the "nice" thoughts related to it. That will enable you to begin furthering the process of forgiveness and rebuilding of trust. So I see his doing these things as not only a "good thing to do," but as something that he NEEDS to do FOR your marriage.

So I pray that you will rest in God's strength and promises, do what should be done for another "clueless person" who has been touched by evil unawares, and take each day one day at a time while waiting on God's timing. Study the Scripture and involve your husband in daily devotions and regular attendance at church. Start putting the focus of the marriage on obedience to God instead of emotional "feelings."

God bless and guide you through the tough days as He works to build a new marriage that brings honor to Him.

<small>[ December 30, 2003, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

The A was a deep friendship combined with passionate lovemaking. It ended when I called OWH, told him what I knew that my H had told me several months earlier, told him that my H had broken my arm when we argued about her, and then H worked on OW for two weeks to get truth out of OW.

I do appreciate the comments on this thread. They are helping me very much.

My H told me yesterday that she had left a voice message last week. Now I have asked him some questions and he is starting to think I am suspicious. Well, I told him, yes, I am, but I am being open about it instead of letting it build and having him discount it so that I think I am going crazy. This time around, I am not letting him discount my feelings. That is a big change.

We had MC in early December and then a four week break for the holidays. I am so looking forward to next week. A New Year... hope...

I beleive the title of your thread has to do with the following quote from page 177 of Dr Harley's book His Needs, Her Needs:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've found that breaking a man away from his lover after he reconciles with his wife proves more difficult than breaking a woman away from her lover. I am not sure why this is so. Perhaps women feel more uncomfortable loving two men, while men adjust better to multiple relationships. Throughout history, in the common system of polygamy, men have supported many women, but most societies have not permitted women to do the same. Usually sociologists have assumed this discrimination had an economic base (men could support women, but women could not usually support men), but the reason may also turn out to be emotional - men like having several wives, while women do not like having several husbands.

When a man wins a wife back from an affair by learning to meet her needs, he has little to worry about. My counseling experiences have shown that when a straying wife comes back to her husband and finds her needs being met, her former lover often no longer tempts her.

But with straying husbands we have a more serious problem. I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I beleive a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how succesfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. He must certainly not work with his former lover and should probably live in some other city or state. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interestingly, Dr Harley does not differentiate between a straying wife who had an affair because her emotional needs were not being met and a straying wife who had an affair because she wanted out of her marriage. I suspect that the vast majority of spouses involved in an exit type affair are women rather than men.

The quote does come from Harley's book, page 177. I am realizing that I am dead-in-the-water, not willing to make any sort of a move towards emotional or physical intimacy because I don't want to be married to a man whose heart is divided. This is my concern, my only showstopper concern. I can't seem to get past it. I don't want to settle for a man who has another woman in his heart. The funny thing is, I am very, very attracted to a man who is married to a friend of mine, BUT there has never been any sort of intimacy and I won't allow it. Not that he's interested. I just know that I'm susceptible because he's got all the qualities that attract me to a man.

With my WH, both physical and emotional intimacy was established -- and interrupted when I called OWH who got the truth out of OW. According to Harley, the only way that the Love Bank balances can decline is with negative contact. WH didn't have negative contact. The affair was going strong when he was caught. I look back and wonder if it wouldn't have been better to let the affair run its course.

Now what? OW left a voice message for WH last week. She is inviting him. He says he has no interest, wants to work on our marriage, it was all a fantasy...

Meanwhile, he is sharing a bed with me. He hasn't even kissed me in six months. We tried 10 minute conversations about the day, and I couldn't handle them. There is no agreement on parenting, finances, anything... I've gained 30 pounds, feel like a walrus..

I am hopeful with this new MC, but part of it is that one conversation made me realize that the bottom line reason for recovery going nowhere for me is this -- I won't be part of a threesome.

I don't think he has lost his love for her and I think he still misses her terribly. It's not that I want him to be happy and think that she will make him happy. It's that I want no part of his being torn.

The odd thing about this is he put me in this position many years ago. I fell so in love with him that I felt I would not marry unless I married him. The problem was that he was going to enter the seminary to become a priest. I did not tell him of my feelings. After a year, he decided to take some time off, and he told me he wanted to date me so that he could discern his vocation. I had told him nothing of my feelings for him and I told him I would not date him unless he had decided against going on to be a priest.

He tells me now that he is done with her. He may be. He may want to work on our marriage, but that just isn't good enough for me. I feel like he is settling for me because he made the commitment to me and he fathered four children by me. This is all speculation on my part, but the feeling is strong enough that I am repulsed by the idea of building a relationship with him. When he was torn between being a priest and being married, I told him to go away. Now I am even wondering if it wouldn't be best to tell him to move out. If he reconnects with Sophia and it doesn't work out, then I would feel like his heart is open to me. Now I feel like it is a little crowded in our marriage.

<small>[ December 30, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

TOOmuchcoffee, thanks much, you have given me more hope, with your post. Happy new year and thanks to all for taking the time to help others. I have not read Harleys book but may have to next year. god bless..

One other thing that we should keep in mind is that, to the best of my knowledge, Dr Willard Harley no longer coaches couples for quite some time now, and while most of his work on marital recovery is still very relevant, his quoted observations from page 177 of 'His Needs, Her Needs' are probably dated. Why? because HNHN was originally published in 1986 and a lot has happened with regards to infidelity, especially female infidelity. I base my opinion on what the late Dr Shirley Glass, Peggy Vaughn, and other experts in the field of infidelity have reported in the last couple of years which is that female infidelity has gone up and is catching up to male infidelity, even surpassing it in certain age groups. There are many more WW's today that have adopted the mindset of past and present WH's and just like their male counterparts, their affairs are less a response to a neglectful and/or abusive husband and more with a sense of entitlement. In other words, there are more WW's today that are cheating on their H's more than once. Because of this, I tend to view that quote from Dr Harley as very dated, considering the changing face of infidelity in the last 17 years since the original publication of HNHN.

I've called Harley perhaps 20 times on his radio show, and in August I asked about whether I should even bother with marriage counseling because I feel like a poor substitute for Sophia. He said that the end result of marriage counseling should be that I am his number one priority. It is not the starting point.

Well, marriage counseling failed because I couldn't get anywhere with marriage counseling because I don't want to deal with a man with a divided heart. The MC also said that the concept of care doesn't make sense to Tom, but I think I contributed mightily to the failure because I wasn't even willing to have 10 minute conversations.

Now we are on to MC #3, and I am trying to get clear in my own mind what the problem is that I can't seem to work on building our relationship without first feeling confident that Sophia is out of his heart.

Sophia left a voice message for Tom last week, and I told him this morning that I regret having exposed the affair -- probably it would have died a natural death. Now the Love Bank is high for Sophia and still low between the both of us. I have been thinking that maybe he could move out and reconnect with this woman and then, if the affair ends, he might come back to me with a whole heart. Does this make sense? He says he can be happy with me, but I don't know that I can be happy with him.

<small>[ January 02, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

<small>[ January 12, 2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: litlone ]</small>

Here's a line from the novel Kristin Lavransdatter: "I know all too well how 'tis to live iwth one who keeps silence and is ever thinking on another -- "

In the end, the impediment to recovery is that I think he is thinking about Sophia and not me. I spent months trying to put her down as a whore -- what sort of woman would do this? But now I realize it doesn't matter if she is a whore. It matters that my husband was not in love with me and fell in love with her.

I feel very discouraged, very depressed. Is there even a point in giving another MC a try?

Restarting,
I had the same concern. What I have come to realize is that love is built from behavior -- attentive, caring behavior. Affairs happen when people get caught up in attentive behavior and fall in love.

Well, the real kicker for me was to realize that my idea of love came from a Rod Stewart song: "You're in my heart, you're in my soul."

I was at the gym several weeks ago and CNN had a biography on Rod Stewart. Children by three different women, two marriages, now divorced.

Love comes from a commitment to care. An affair doesn't have commitment. It's a fantasy, a wonderful hidden passionate fantasy. When it is over, when it is exposed, often the fantasy looks to the WS like what it is -- the selfish act of a person using a drug, and the drug is the feeling of love. Good people wander into affairs out of ignorance rather than the deliberate desire to hurt their spouse. The affair partner can be thought of in loving terms, but the relationship was borne in secrecy and selfishness and was never committed.

Hope this helps...

Cherished

How about thinking about it like this. Did you ever date anyone before your H? Did you love them? Do you still have love for them?

I dated (long relationships) several men over the years. I loved them, they deposited love units. It wasn't time to get married for me-I was too young at the time. Do I still feel love for them-yes-and more than one of them, would I leave my H for them-no way. He is my H and my true soulmate. Even after he had his A I wouldn't leave him and I am sure that at least one of those old BFs would want some sort of relationship, but I love my H and have a commitment. I just wouldn't even look at the old BF even if he showed up at the door. The affair is in the past and he is with YOU. That is what you have to remember. The BFs are in the past. Your OW is history and always will be in your realtionship history, but it is now HISTORY. Are you hanging on to it because you are trying to protect yourself from being hurt by your H again? My H had some feelings for the OW, but what he has with me is mature love. Did your H feel that way about you when he first met you? Then try to have him remember that. Just look at her as a wake up call to your marriage. I know it hurts and I have felt the same way you do. Second best, but really-we are not, they are with us.

cherished: please notice that you posted your words of encouragement for me on your own thread? You see, we all really do know our own answers to our troubles, don't we?

Like you, eveidence indicates there is as much hope (or more) as there is doubt in the survival of our M's. Every success story proves we can make it. All these wonderful people encouraging us are just trying to show us that to enhance the odds of ANY of it working has to do with the changes we make WITHIN...

Hard pill to swallow. Ironic, isn't it? As we point to our S and say, "S must change for me to change" - we are not looking at the fact that when WE change, S changes, too!

Like you, I am getting to where I can honestly acknowledge that jealousy sitting in my heart and blocking my own ability to seek and work on MY OWN CHANGES. I resent this jealousy - because I have never, ever felt it before! Jealousy undermines my own confidence, and I resent it's presence.

But, the hardest thing is to admit it and then, to do something about it. That's the part I'm working on right now....

Restarting,
I'm glad to hear of your hopefulness.

With regard to the harassment, I can attest that once I followed Harley's advice to contact OW's H, and that's how the A was revealed, I did in part blame her and think that part of my job was to keep her from contacting my H.

Well, when I found out that she had been back at the work interviewing and my H told me she had told a mutual friend from work that she was interviewing, I called her and told her I'd tell her co-workers that she had quit the prior year because she'd had an A with my H. Her response was to slap me with a harassment order.

I actually think it was a blessing for me. I didn't contest it. It turned out that a harassment order is a civil matter which only becomes criminal when violated. I realized that the problem with an A has to do with the WS and not the OP because there's plenty of opportunity out there for anyone.

The reason why I am saying this is that the OP is probably in a lot of pain and is blaming you or your H for that pain rather than facing that she got herself into this mess by getting involved with person who wasn't available. I think you would do her a favor by having a harassment order issued against her. It would then be her choice to recognize that your H means it when he says the A is over and that she needs to move on with her life.

The harassment order was part of my wake up call that the problem was not Sophia. I had spent years taking abuse and thinking it was my problem that he was abusive. When the A came out, I didn't blame my H. I blamed OW. Well, I had to face that my H made choices that he knew would hurt me terribly. It wasn't me. It wasn't OW. It was H.

Think about it. OW is miserable and thinks that harassing will help her get out of her misery. She may be trying to scare you away. It would be firm, clear, and compassionate to send her the message through legal means that the A is over, move on...

Cherished

Cherished, sorry I'm hijacking your thread...here's my sitch.

BS 46
WH 44
M 19 years
S, 17, D11
H PA 1998
EA/PA 2004
WH moved out 6/04
OW 41, married 3 kids, hates her H who's still at home

I've known about the A since 3/04...it hasn't stopped. Even today, he's seeing/calling her -- not sure what else.

My H says he L me (tho the ILYB speech happened in March), yet he's unable to stop seeing her. We just had our Anniversary prior to Tgiving...I had a huge blow out.

I'm now obsessing about the OW. Called her home to see how her H was doing (he called me and we keep in touch) Her family knows, he knows...yet it continues. She works at the same company as me and I can't spread the word there.

Why is it so hard for H to get that we belong together? Why can't he see what he's doing to everyone? How can I cope with this?

I'm having a huge meltdown over the past several weeks -- just can't find my emotional balance. Don't know what to do? H says ILY, yet doesn't seem willing to work on the M. Yet, asks about the Relationship Rescue book...said he'd go to counseling...but I haven't seen any changes in their relationship.

HELP.
Susan

Now I haven't been following your story, but maybe you and her BS could both throw them out and give them a dose of reality (plan b). Let them fill each others needs and it will likely be sink, but it is a risk. Depends on how much you can take.

ustr,
I had a meltdown when the A came to light. I did not have a meltdown when, 12 days after a hysterectomy with other pelvic floor repairs that were so extensive I was in the hospital five days, he broke my arm when we were arguing about her and I had to go through surgery because my ulna was broken in 7 pieces.

Are you kidding? How could you stand it? I just suspected. I didn't know.

What I have concluded is that I need to figure out what I want in life. I was willing to settle for a marriage of neglect and take the blame for abuse, but the affair was not my fault! It woke me up.

Think about what you are dealing with. You apparently see the OW and know that your H is in contact with her. Is this OK? From my vantage point now, after nearly 3 years of hysteria, I told my H a month ago that I'm not willing to settle for a marriage of neglect -- we either go through Harley's program starting immediately, or I'm done. It's not about my trying to control him -- not at all -- I'm willing to accept and not try to change what he decides. It's about what I want in life, and this hasn't been it.

You wrote: "Why is it so hard for H to get that we belong together?" That sounds like control to me. You can't tell him where he belongs. That's for him to figure out. Your job is to decide if you are willing to continue living with a man who is openly continuing contact with a lover. I never could and never would accept such a situation. I was willing to believe that he wouldn't lie to me, and now I know better, but he was never openly carrying on an affair in my presence.

If you look at the post here, I bumped it up from last year. Things have changed.

Cherished

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

cherished: you said things have changed -- I'm assuming for the better, then?

It was enlightening to see the different way you wrote from the start of the thread to the current posting. I can see you have found your self respect.

What's the update on your M?

Restarting,
Yes, things have changed. I started to realize in mid-October that I was the one who had to change. During the A, when he was having an A and I was going to counseling because I was upset and he had started anger management because he had broken my arm, I told the therapist that I thought I was confusing forgiveness with tolerance, but that's all I could understand.

Now I realize that forgiveness is about the past, and tolerance is about the present and future. I told my H that he had once said, "You felt abandoned, and I felt smothered." I said that I only want to be married if both of us are happy. I will no longer settle for a marriage of neglect.

Harley's program lays out the initial, critical condition that the husband and wife spend 15 hours per week alone together trying to meet the intimate emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, and intimate conversation. I told Tom that I am only willing to stay married if we do this, and that it is his choice. He asked, "What if the maximum amount of time I want to spend with you is 14.5 hours per week?", and I said that then I would want to file for legal separation.

We are just now completing our third week of 15 hours together.

He has his life to lead, and I have mine. I was hysterical before and during the affair that I'm not sure I can get over this. When the affair came out, he told his mother, "It's all up to Kathy. I did terrible things, but they're in the past. She has to forgive me."

No way was I going to believe that. I'd already lived with abuse for 8 years, including three abuses that could have resulted in death (the broken arm was the most dramatic story to tell but not the most serious abuse). I wasn't just going to forgive him and move on.

It took me time (meaning 2 1/2 years) to realize that I don't want to live this way anymore, and I told him so. I said that if he needs time to think, then I'll file for legal separation. Harley, on the MB Forum, by the way, had already said we should separate, had already talked with him personally... We have definitely gotten our money's worth out of that MB seminar program.

We are just completing our 3rd week of 15 hours pe week together. Tom's taking the afternoon off, I've arranged babysitting for our 3 year old, and we're going Christmas shopping. Very low key. Very nice.

What I have learned is that emotional needs are part of who a person is. The spouse needs to accept those needs and meet them. I need to meet his, and he needs to meet mine. My H, from the day we got married, was awful to me -- and I accepted it, took the blame for it, and accepted incredible neglect. To illustrate, he was gone on a business trip out of the country for an entire week, and on the evening he returned, I asked our then 4 year old, "Guess who's coming home tonight?" She looked at me and said, "I don't know. Who?" Then I said, "Who's missing?" Her reply: "I don't know: who?" When I said, "Daddy," she said, "Oh, Daddy" and she was happy.

I'm not living like this anymore. I'm not subjecting my children to witnessing a marriage of neglect anymore.

Yes, I believe there is love in an A. Love is the feeling that results from intimate emotinal needs being met. What there isn't is a commitment.

In the end, the A was a blessing. I was willing to hide abuse and accept blame for it. It was only the A that woke me up that I was tolerating, not forgiving.


My feelings for Tom have not changed, but I do enjoy what turns out to be a very high need of mine -- physical affection. Lots of physical affection, day in and day out going forward, is eventually going to outweigh the past abuse, neglect, and infidelity. I will enjoy the present with him and let the past fade.

Cherished

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cherished:

Yes, I believe there is love in an A. Love is the feeling that results from intimate emotinal needs being met. What there isn't is a commitment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I beg to differ because what exists in an affair is not true love but romantic or passionate infatuation that withers away when reality comes crashing down on the affairees. True love is based more on actions which come from committment to weather the turbulent times in a marriage and not just enjoying the romantic or passionate feelings during marital good times which are just really the icing on the cake.

TMCM

TMCM --
You and Pepperband were the two who posted to me through the months of hysteria after D-day who actually got through to me, and I want to thank you for that.

I think you're right that an A isn't love and it was right there in what I said -- love is about a commitment to care. There is no commitment to care for an affair partner. At one point, there had been a commitment to care for the spouse.

Cherished