Hiker,
That is pretty good...kinda sums it all up doesn't it? Funny how all of our situations have such common threads and we share such similar feelings.

I hope Joey is still coming around to read all this. Diane

hmmmm
waz it sumptin I said?
H

joooeeeey

Where are you? How about an update.I hope you are hanging in there with NO CONTACT.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think we lost Joey - Maybe he couldn't keep up NC? I feel sad <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Felina

Me too Felina. Maybe he will come back. Diane

Joey,

If you’ve come back… I haven’t posted during this whole thing but felt that I should add my two cents to the whole NC thing. A couple of years ago I was involved in a very intensive affair. We spent most of our day together, be it email, phone, text messaging, long lunches, and IM at night. I gave him everything I had to the detriment of my husband and children. It lasted about two years. One day his wife confronted him. He waffled for about a week but when I couldn’t / wouldn’t agree to leave my husband he ended it with me. There has never been any contact of any sort.

When it first happened I couldn’t believe or understand how somebody could be so cruel. We spent so much time together, how could he just flick me off as easily as a light switch? Didn’t he care? Was it all a lie?

Within a couple of months my feeling started to change. Today after two years I am so grateful for the way he handled it. If he had continued contact I know without a doubt I would have not have recovered. At that time I didn’t have the strength to do it. I knew the affair was wrong. I hated being in that limbo of having my heart tied to two men but I wasn’t going to stop. I would have never left my husband no matter how much I believed I loved the other man. We would have just stayed in the cycle of hurting ourselves, each other, and the families we both claimed to love. The way he did left no doubt that there was a chance for him to come back. There was no hanging on, no last goodbyes, it was final. This allowed me to move on and my husband and I to begin to repair the damage we had done to our marriage.

You claim to care for this other woman. I’ve been in her shoes. Believe me the cruelest thing you can do to her now is to hang on to her while your still hanging on to your wife. So let her go. I loved the other man. He was a good person, just as incredibly stupid as I was. I still think of him sometimes. Not really with longing or with fondness, only as someone I used to know and with the hope that he is doing well. The right decision for him, and me, was for him to reconcile with his wife. Just as it is the right decision for you to do everything you can to reconcile with yours.

Well... it's been over 2 weeks since I have seen her now and honestly I just don't know about all this... Did I mention in any previous posts, that I really had planned on leaving my wife before I met the OW??? I left my wife mentally over a year ago and have been physically living here, faking a marriage. I guess faking a marriage for over 20 years!!! ...so to be doing the "right thing", as everyone keeps saying... My wife and I talk constantly but it seems the more we talk the worse it gets, instead of better... We have NEVER had problems talking to each other... sometimes I think that may be the BIGGEST problem!!! We talk and think toooooooo much and there is hardly any action!!!

Well, for those who said I was bragging and ALL that crap about doing what I have done is just plain dead wrong!!! I am not bragging about anything, although for some unknown reason I don't feel guilty or any remorse for what I have done. I am doing what the NC letter said and the Counselor, etc... I sure hope you guys are right because I feel like I am letting a gold mine go... and I'm not getting any younger... I just hope if after I put out all this energy and time at my age... because I have already spent over 20 years of my life hoping things would change and now it has come to this...

joey:

"Well, for those who said I was bragging and ALL that crap about doing what I have done is just plain dead wrong!!!"

Um... I don't think so. You seemed 2 brag about your ability 2 keep your A a secret from your W. Maybe you don't think that's what it is, but try 2 think about how it looks 2 your W, or 2 us. Stop being so selfish about this. Look, there are reasonable limits of doing things because you believe they're right for you, but these things should not include hurting others. While your having an A, you need 2 realize that your thinking is not clear, you're not able 2 be objective, fair, honest, truthful.

"I am not bragging about anything, although for some unknown reason I don't feel guilty or any remorse for what I have done."

Why not? Because until you do, I don't think you can heal. And I don't mean you should sit yourself down and force yourself 2 feel guilty. That won't work. You need 2 do some soul-searching. Why don't you feel guilty cheating and lying? You certainly are guilty of those things. Has your sense of morality shifted such that this kind of behavior is perfectly okay? Would you encourage your W 2 behave similarly?

"I am doing what the NC letter said and the Counselor, etc... I sure hope you guys are right because I feel like I am letting a gold mine go..."

Only you can decide what is right for you and what isn't. Counselors can certainly help, though. You should think about why it is that most counselors would advise that you go NC with your OW and try 2 rebuild your M. They make that recommendation for a reason, based on decades of experience dealing with si2ations exactly like your own. But they can only advise you, they can't (or shouldn't) tell you what 2 do. Only you can do that. ...I can imagine it must be hard being a counselor trying 2 help a WS end an A and heal themselves and work on their marriage. What if you push them away? Try 2 understand the difficult si2ation the counselor (and your family) is (are) in while you figure yourself out.

"and I'm not getting any younger..."

Neither am I. None of us gets out of this alive. While we're here, though, we need 2 think about the effects we have on those around us. The lessons we've learned, the examples we're setting. In this context, I think it is the kindest, most selfless act of love you could possibly express by going NC with the OP and sticking with it. It's also great for your own integrity and the well-being of those around you.

"I just hope if after I put out all this energy and time at my age... because I have already spent over 20 years of my life hoping things would change and now it has come to this... "

My W would have probably said much the same thing. And while it is true that my withdrawal from her over the years was the exact WRONG thing for me 2 have done when she needed attention, once she found it elsewhere there was no way I could have a 100%/100% relationship with her until the A was exposed and they could both decide 2 end it. It had 2 be on her own timescale, 2. I couldn't do anything 2 persuade her 2 end it for me. I know how hard it is not 2 LB and 2 be patient. That's why I made that comment about your W's tenacity. Don't mistake that as her wanting 2 stay with you because of insecurity or fear of being alone. She's probably working harder than you imagine. I know my W couldn't see or acknowledge my efforts while her attempts 2 maintain her "friendship" with Rat Meat continued for more than another year and a half after d-day.

I'm approaching the 2-yr anniversary of my discovery of her A. It's been a helluva ride in the past 2 years, and I believe we've learned a lot that we wouldn't have if either the A or my discovery of it hadn't happened. I stop shy of saying I'm ac2ally grateful for her A, but we really wouldn't have had the impetus for personal spiri2al growth we've had without it.

We celebrated our 28th anniversary last month. Just after our 27th, I posted that I didn't think we'd have a 28th. Now I'm pretty sure we'll have many more.

Regarding "not getting any younger": You might want 2 read David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage". It's a hard read, but very, very good. It'll help you be an emotionally healthy individual in a committed relationship. It'll also change your view of intimacy as you grow older.

-ol' 2long
FBS (me) 50
FWW 49
EA/PA with RM (colleague) off and on for 12 yrs
D-day 1-18-2002
Recovery REALLY started ~9-2003
M'd 28 yrs
D 24
S 16

Stay strong Joey. Someone once said something to me that keeps ringing in my ears as I ride this rollercoaster...

"The choice to end your marriage will always be there. But you may never get another chance to save it."

Don't quit until you know in your own mind, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you've done everything within your power to make your marriage work.

Joey,
Does your wife know about this site? If not, maybe you could nicely direct her here. Rebuilding after an affair is a difficult process and if neither one of you have a plan than you may wonder endlessly and never really recover. This site has the plan and the support for you as well as your wife. Right now though, you are going through withdrawals and there is nothing anyone can say or do to really help you through this except that eventually the pain will start to subside. Until that happens, it is very difficult for your wife to meet your needs and she may even be doing worse because she doesn't know what to do. If you haven't read the book Surviving an Affair, you should really go out and get it. It will help you and your wife get through this. Eventually, I'd suggest setting up a counseling session with the Harleys. We know it is hard right now but I want you to read this letter I found the other day on this site and really think about it......

I borrowed this from Stung by a Bees thread.

I heard this letter on air and found it on Dr. Laura's website. What do you all think of this?


Dear Dr. Laura,

After listening to your caller today who wanted to know what to do because he didn’t “feel” love for his wife anymore, but felt like he would towards a sister, I felt compelled to comment.

Two years ago I was in a similar situation. I merely tolerated being married because I didn’t want my three children (at the time ages 16, 10, and 3) to come from a broken home. I finally came to the realization one day that I was responsible for my feelings, and I did something about it.

I resolved right then and there that nobody – friends, family, coworkers (not even you, Dr. Laura) – would hear me say anything negative or critical about my wife. Every word anybody heard from me would be only positive when it concerned her. If I had anything of that nature to say, I could lovingly discuss it with her or shut up about it and that was that. I also decided that, no matter how I FELT, I would always treat her as though she was the single most beautiful thing God had ever created, and that any act of love I could do for her, I would do. I wake up in the morning and bring her a fresh, hot cup of coffee in bed. Then I warm up the shower and make sure to wash her back for her (I didn’t have to pretend I enjoyed that). I cheerfully cook dinner when she has had a difficult day, give our daughter her bath and insist that she take a nap on Sunday afternoon after church.

Although I sometimes find the topic as exciting as a cold mashed potato sandwich, I pay attention to what she says and comment on it because that is more important than what is happening on Law and Order on television. I even do grocery shopping, alone or with her if she likes. I even go clothes shopping with her (usually every man’s nightmare) and give her genuine input and show honest interest. The idea is to spend time with her, regardless of what we are doing. I looked for genuine ways to compliment her (I’m really impressed with your knowledge of special needs children). I pamper, take care of, and generally spoil my sweetheart as much and as often as I can.

Since you have a background in psychology, you can guess what happened. If you change your behavior, your mind follows suit. I didn’t have to spend much time telling her how incredible she was before I began to believe everything I told her. Tonya became more beautiful by the day, and is far more intelligent than I ever gave her credit for before my “awakening.”

It has been over two years, and our life together is far and away better than anything I could have imagined. Tonya is my best friend, wife, sweetheart and companion all wrapped up into one fabulously beautiful package, and we grow closer by the day. I don’t always “feel” love, but I always make it a point to “do” loving things so that she can “feel” loved. We will be married 23 years on the 22nd of this month, and people we meet think we are newlyweds because we are so affectionate with each other.

If I could talk to your caller, I would tell him to stop expecting his marriage to fix itself. Love isn’t a feeling, it is an action word. Love is what you promised to do when you stood before the preacher with the second most beautiful woman in the world (my Tonya is the first). So stop whining and start loving your wife. The rewards are far beyond what you can imagine. I am living proof of that. John L.

Your marriage can be great. Its not easy and you are going through a rough time right now. Please let us help you get through this by showing you our support. Again, if your wife hasn't found this site, please direct her here. She could learn alot here also. The emotional questionaires are very important so you and your wife can figure out where you need to improve so you can start meeting each others needs. This is part of the plan to recover. Right now you and your wife should be talking but not about the affair. You are in enough pain right now and that is just a lovebuster and prolongs the withdrawal. Talk about fun stuff, get your mind off of OW and the affair. Do something fun with your wife or kids. Do something to take your mind away from the pain. I know I'm only talking from what I've read, but how can so many people be wrong? I hope one day my W will come back and we can at least be where you are now. You give me hope. Don't let us down. Keep us posted. We're here for you.......

Joey

Hoping and wishing never changed anything. Hard work over a long period of time changes things. If your heart isn't in it then go do someting else. Don't do anything because we say or anyone says but because you are absolutely sure that is what you want. The way it sounds to me you feel your marriage is a lost cause if so then the merciful thing to do is move on but you don't try your little experiment while you are still married. That is cruel .
H

I promise you Hiker... I am not wanting to be cruel and I have always been faithful and loving to my wife ALL these years... Calling her, telling her where I was, when I would be home, etc... It has kinda ALWAYS been a one way street but that has all changed now...

That is my dilemma what you said... in that I feel it's a lost cause... it takes two (2) willing people who want this. I feel she is willing but I have done this soooo many times in the past believing she would kinda warm up BUT it's kinda like the kid who cried wolf so many times (meaning she would change)that I simply don't believe her. Now she is gonna pull a rabbit out of her hat after +20 years??? Well... we shall see...

I do read all the comments and it does seem to help hearing from others... I know everyone has a little different story and desires different solutions but it does help reading them all. Thanx Hiker!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hiker:
<strong> Joey

If your heart isn't in it then go do someting else. Don't do anything because we say or anyone says but because you are absolutely sure that is what you want. The way it sounds to me you feel your marriage is a lost cause if so then the merciful thing to do is move on... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

The way you tell it, you were an incredible husband all these years, and your wife never reciprocated. Hmmm. Dig deep, is this REALLY true? It is pretty tough to believe you stayed around that long for NO reason, isn't it? Try to be a little more objective. A lot of people in A's rewrite history and their perception becomes very twisted.

The bottom line is this: what kind of person do you want to be? Are you a guy who leaves a 20 year marriage without really giving it the best possible chance of making it? EVERY expert and experienced person will back up the NC plan. You are deep in withdrawals now. You aren't going to have guilt and probably not much feeling for your W now. You need some distance and separation from your OW to really see reality. Do you really believe that one other person in your life is going to make everything perfect? Can one person possibly do that FOR you? The answer is no and you are living in fantasy thinking this woman is the answer to all your desires and you will ride off together into the sunset. I know that you know this deep down, it just looks so good right now, you WANT to believe that things will be just great if you only "follow your heart." The fact is, feelings can really mess you up. You need to do what is right.

Yes, you have resentment that you feel your W didn't make the changes for you earlier. I can guarantee there are reasons for that, some may even have to do with your behaviors toward her, some may not. In any case, you made a commitment to her, have children with her and 20 years with her. The LEAST you can do is give this a real try. Keep up with NC. IF you and the OW are meant to be then the opportunity will be there.

Hello??????? I guess you didn't read the above post that I had planned on leaving her before I met the OW. I guess that was something I didn't mention from the onstart. Yes... I did stay this long giving this my best shot and hoping that things would turn around. I actually am only doing this NC thing because of obligation and duty, I guess... because I am not really expecting things to REALLY change for my wife... sure... temporarily again... as in the past... but I feel sure it will relapse as it always has before. Personally I am tired of it all and feel very trapped and caged.

Let's simply forget the OW right now... I am talking about me and can I ever love my wife again period!!!??? These feeling towards her didn't start when I met the OW or a year ago or 2 years ago but many, many years ago. I feel like I am now finally facing reality and not pretending anymore or being fake on how I view our marriage as I have in the past. The more you guys keep talking the clearer things seem to be getting to me. That it's REALLY NOT the OW that has brought me to this forum but actually how I feel and have felt about my marriage for a VERY long time but would never admit my own feelings to myself.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Anne6263:
<strong> Dig deep, is this REALLY true? It is pretty tough to believe you stayed around that long for NO reason, isn't it?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Joey, so if that's really the way you feel, get a divorce the right way - without another woman waiting in the wings, and then move on from there. I have to commend you for doing the NC and having the faith to try that if your M has been this deteriorated for so long. Like you said - this is not about the OW, but about you, and what you want or don't want for the rest of your life - and if that's freedom from your W, just do it the right way. Taking the OW out of the picture allows you to see that a little better.

Good luck!

Felina

You know, you've been talking about your wife warming up for awhile then things go back. Well, have you been meeting her needs. All this stuff about you not feeling but what about her? Have you really found out what emotional needs you are not providing for your wife? Marriage is a 2 way street as you said, but are you in the drivers seat or are you just sitting in the back seat thinking she has to make you feel good. Dude, wake up!!! A marriage is only as good as the effort put into it. I know mine sucked because neither one of us worked at it. When was the last time you just did something nice for your wife and not expect something back in return? You know this affair is all about you. You have become very selfish and it may not have just happened. If you have been expecting your wife to make you happy, man are you dreaming. You have to be happy. Your wife can make you happier, but take responsibility for your life. When you can be happy for yourself and then try to do everything to make your wife happy, do you think she will just sit there and not return your love? Wake up!!! I wish I would have long before my wife left. I know now what I have to do. You need to figure that out for yourself. Get some books, get a shrink, gets some anti d's, so something, but quit feeling sorry for yourself. Your life is as good as you make it....PERIOD!!!!!

Ugh, <Long, loud sigh> I gotta jump in here ONE MORE TIME. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Joey, listen, here's the thing. If YOU are "doing things" to try to make the M work, but your W isn't aware of what things she needs to do to meet YOUR NEEDS, you are going to continue to feel unfulfilled and empty, and STILL WANT TO LEAVE THE M.

I understand. Apparently, my H had an "exit Affair" as well, because of unmet needs for a long time and he wanted OUT of the M.

I MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HELP HIM save our M, If Only He Would Have Told Me what he was feeling, and we could have set up a "PLAN" to work together to do what was necessary. Unfortunately, he didn't. Prolly didn't know what to do, how to say it, or help me do whatever it was (he didn't know, I didn't know, we were stuck).

You see, people DON'T change without motivation. People continue to do what they believe has "worked" for them (as Dr. Phil says). I'm guessing your W believes her way of "showing" you love is "working" for her, even tho you're painfully telling us that it isn't working FOR YOU!

Have you talked to her about that? Have you (and she) taken the ENQ? Have you explained about LoveBusters and Unmet Needs?

IF NOT, STOP COMING HERE AND WHINING THAT SHE'LL "NEVER CHANGE" AND THAT YOU CAN NEVER GET THE LOVE BACK FOR YOUR M.

There, that little "rant" felt good, and I feel better. I have continually asked you if you have a PLAN to "fix" your M, and you have seemed to continually ignored my ?

Joey, What are you doing to FIX what's wrong with your M? Just going back to it, and CHANGING NOTHING about the dynamics between you and she will NOT WORK. Part of your continued unhappiness is proof.

Please help her help your M.

God Bless,

Hi,

1st I must admit I did not read all posts but your situation sounds similar so let me share with your some points I gleened from your thread along with my opinion.

1. OW is 4 years older, financially set, looks like a good catch, is a widow so she is free to have an R.

2. U R married, younger and at this time attracted to the description of item1. You state your W was not meeting your needs for over 20 years. You found this site in an attempt to see if your M was salvagable.
You have read the conecpts section

3. Your W knows of the A or at least part of it. Your W has now realized what she may have been negligent in and wants to save the M and has been introduced to MB.

The above is a recap for my benefit. Now my thoughts:

1. Ow is not just a widow, she is now an OW as well. How many times? Not sure.

2. U have unmet needs and are not meeting your wife's needs. Bet you are surprised she wants to work on the M and this is adding your frustration. Your drive to have any contact with the OW confuses your senses of reason. Even dreams of the OW drive you wild.

3. Your W has unmet needs also. What are they, do you know? What are you doing to meet them and why does she want to salvage the M?

In my case my H was the Ws,. He met the OW online in an attempt to find his unmet needs. He met several OWs. The last was the worst..... OW (her MB nickname is PBR - initials will be explained later) was also older than the WS and supposedly financially secure. Claimed to be highly educated and had a knack for trying to make me look bad. Initially the WS told me (after d/d) that OW was a 'good friend', never lied, financially secure, a good person, liked her privacy, a good W, loved dogs, highly educated, self employed, did everything for her lousey H who left her for an OW, going to D her H and be with the WS (my H).

OW told me, she was highly educated, finacially secure, liked her privacy, prego & miscarried at least twice, said she was prego with a girl though only 6 wks along without any proof of even being prego, claimed she was going to make my H her H and make him happier, healthier and weathier than he will ever be with his family, heard my mother was dying, didn't lie or cheat, told me I was not married to my H that she was, accused me of having an A with my FIL, accused me of being abusive to my H and child, accused me of abandoning my child and would turn me over to the authorities, told me she would get me fired from my job and threatened to call police because I called her home .

Reality: OW and Ws lied from the beginning. Planned to D both spouses and had a financial plan. WS moved out for 5 months, attempted to live with ow for 10 days, went on vacation with ow for 4 days, ow tried to give him $$, ow wanted to 'share' ws time (her 3 days and family 4 days - how generous), ow sent me numerous e-mails and even called my home to tell me she was prego, that I made her miscarry (though I had not even seen her at that time), OW did D her H, OW gave WS all the D paperwork and links for quickie D, washed WS clothes (separate story), WS came home sick and financially broke, family almost lost our home due to this A, WS was homeless several times, OW tried hard to control even the BS and family, etc.

There is more, as you can see some of the WS and OWs statements are true and reality shows the rest. The point is to show you that what is said vs what happens can be vastly different.

At this time my H is now repulsed by the OW. Her actions show the OW in our case t/b pyschotic. Her need to control is insane. It led her to finally file an RO and lie in court along with making up a story of being financially strapped so that her court fees were waved, I had to hear all of it before a judge and it turned my stomach, It doesn't end there, the OW still thinks it is now her duty to all members of my church to talk about our family. Fortunately, my church isn't as dumnb as the OW.

The current status is that the WS has chosen to shed that title and come back to his family. It is hard but his family (us) have decided to let him come back only if he proved he is worthy fanily member.,

The needs of the entire family are now the responsibility of all. Communication pro/con is a must, That has helped us repair that breakdown in communciation. As it is being reparied, my H's feelings for his family is returning. NC with the OW is important.
Even if she isn't psycohtic, the A will help her go that way. If you are her friend, let her go. If you are selfish, lose all that loves you and lose again.

The choice is yours.

by the way, have you read His needs/Her Needs?

Good book, check it out. Also, take the emotional needs questionnaire, Both you and your W should.

See if you can do some phone counseling with Steve, Jennifer or Cerri, In the comfort of your own home, it is a great tool.

Hope this helps, glad you found MB, All the best to you and your W but not to the A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

joey:

I'm going 2 make some judgements here:

You've failed 2 keep your marriage healthy because you expect your W 2 change. You can't change others, only yourself. When you change yourself, you may be surprised 2 find those around you change in response.

You can hope, but you can't expect.

You expecting your W 2 change 2 meet some sort of standards you've arbitrarily set for her has evolved in2 a destructive, self-fulfilling prophecy.

Change your behavior. Jettison the expectations. Accept your W for who she is. Relax. Be patient. Grow.

-2long

joey--your story is too much like mine and difficult for me to read. I don't know whe