Orchid, no offense!

Your tecnniques would not have worked with my FWH.

I think Ziggy Lovebusts by being too demanding and controlling. We need to help her back off from that.

Ziggy-stay on your PLAN A course!!!!

Mimi, I certainly understand that not all techniques work for all personalities. I was able to get my info by NOT LBing. To this day, when I use that phrase 'can I ask you a question', H stops and politely listens. Not a habit he had in the past. His anger outbursts that used to be taken out directly on me (and others but mostly me) have for the most part vanished. It took a loooong time for that to happen.

I did ok in plan A, plan B was hard because the more I pulled back the more agressive and sometime threatening he becane (he used to tell me why didn't I love him, why am I hurting him, he would go and live with the Ow if Ididn't do as he asked, etc.) Well duh! I had to realize the force was strong with this foghead and that if that is how he 'really' felt, then so be it. I stopped trying to reason with the insane one. To this day, I apply that technique and it is working. My grandmother told me one day I would learn to do that and she is right. It just took this 'ol gal a few decades to figure that out and I hope a few here will learn that sooner. It is hard NOT ot help but sometimes that is best. If a WS is trying hard to be a fool, then you can't stop them, just step out of their way until they realize the emperor (any WS ) doesn't have a new wardrobe, He's BUTT NAKED! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So take the good points from this posts and others then discard the rest. That's what I have done.

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong> Once he gets home at a time that you think is good, calmly and respectfully ASK him to take off the cross pendant. Explain to him how much it HURTS you. Express how it makes you FEEL. This can be done without you being demanding. PLAN A includes expressing your emotional pain and hurt. That is an important part of the plan as long as you do not do ANGRY OUTBURSTS. Also, there can't be too much wimpering and no begging. Just expression of feeling. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi, I think that is an excellent suggestion. She clearly sets boundaries to protect herself without lovebusting. Orchid, I see your points too, but like Mimi said, we are trying to get her to back off of the lovebusters. We are in damage control mode right now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have managed to get over my obsession with the pendant for now. I will bring up the pendant issue when he is home.

I did not LB last night or today. He will be leaving after dinner and will be sleeping at his brother's place.

The worst part of the whole day is that he had been SMS OW and had one discreet phone call. He also said he is going out for drinks tonight but did not elaborate with whom. Neither did i asked. I suspect it is with OW. This is the annoying part...HOW DO YOU HANDLE this situation? Just keep quiet about it? That was what i did. I ignore the whole situation and pretended that i was duh about it. But the hard thing is that i know. Is pLan A includes pretending that you don't know??? I don't want him to think that i am ignorant. I don't want him to think that he could get away with his discreet phone calls. i don't want him to think that i condone such behaviour. I want to tell him ALL THAT but because of Plan A...I DID NOT? or can i? I need to know???

The best part about the whole day is getting my WS to read Joey1960 posting! He actually read the whole 7 pages of it. Later at lunch he told me how the posting made him realise the hurt a BS has to go through. He was teary when he said that. In my heart i wanted to scream so DO SOMETHING about it! But again, i kept my mouth shut and told him its okay. I even encourage him to post in here so he could get some feedback and he said he just might.

I could see he is in so much pressure. Last night he had to go out to the office for awhile to check something but again i suspect it is to call OW. Anyway the thing is that i stood at the window watching him. He sat quite awhile in the car and staring ahead. Then he rub his eyes just like someone with a lot of problems. I wanted to say so many to help him in his dillema but since it is all about the affair, again, i keep my mouth shut.

How long can one do this? I cannot imagine myself keeping quiet for 3 months!!

Zizzy, you don't pretend like the affair isn't happening, you address it in a calm and collected manner without lovebusting. Tell him everytime how DEEPLY hurt you are and how much damage it is doing to your marriage. Don't hide your feelings, just don't LOVE BUST!

This won't have to go on much longer but it is VITALLY important that you leave a good taste in his mouth before you move to Plan B. See what I mean? When you go dark, he should MISS you and your absence should be enough to pull him off the fence.

We don't intend on leaving him on the fence eating cake for long, so don't worry.

Is the OW married? What things can you do help break up this affair, such as contacting her family, her H, his family?

Here is another must read for you: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=020829

<small>[ January 18, 2004, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

ZZ & Mel,

Mel, I certainly agree that Mimi's suggestions are good. Those suggestions work quite well with a reasonable person. Yes, this is damage control. Right now more than anything, it is important to realize he is on the fence. U & I have seen and experienced many instances of that. Doing a solid plan A while the WS is on the fence often sends them back to the WS thinking he in some demented way has the BS' blessing. Some may even try to tell the OW that in an effort to convince their guilty conscience that the A is ok. U see in the case of an OW these women put a lot of pressure in many cases on their WS'. The BS may or may not know how an OW will react but she does know that as a woman the tendancy is there to try and nuture the A. That nuturing drive is strong in many women and many OWs use it to the hilt.

When those types of cases arise, the BS is the last to know. Posting here can help many newer BS learn that when a WS is on the fence, it c/b better to try and have the OW meet even the unpleasant needs. The BS wants to nuture their WS as their spouse but that does not work since that person is not a spouse he is a WS. Nuturing from the BS does not work well, the WS side of his personality fights it and hence the conflict.

This is all part of that crazy rollercoaster. From what I see this is a nuturing OW but she may have her limites. Let her meet the WS' needs, then give over more pressure so that if she wants to continue in this insane nuturing, let her meet more. Doing his laundry maybe fun.....for a while. Give her more. Let her pay his bills. Let her make him dinners, lunch, breakfast. Give the WS a list of things the family needs. When he asks how is he going to do it, tell him to go figure it out. He seemed to figure out orther stuff without consulting the BS. The WS may get confused and angry. The BS needs to not let that sway her into feeling sorry for him. She can then tell him she loves him and give him his to do list then send him on his way. Oh yea, make sure there is a deadline on it. That will put pressure on the A since now the OW will see that the WS is doing what the BS wants. Nothing ticks off an OW more than for the WS to tell the OW that they can spend time together running errands for the BS and family. Initially it may be fun but that does get tiriing. When the WS returns, the BS can accept the right stuff and send him on another missiion to return the wrong stuff or if the BS feels the OW had a hand in some choices, then tell him the item is wrong and do it again.

What kind of plan is this? It is a plan that gives the WS more confusion and tends to release pressure from the BS. Expect the WS to get more cranky but hey he is doing that anyway without relief to the BS and family. This technique does take a lot of strength on the BS part and only when the BS is ready to do this can it really work. The BS must learn not to give him to feeling sorry for the WS. When the WS whines, tell him you love him shrug your shoulders and send him on his way. This is an important step. The point is to give relief to the BS and family, get a few chores out of the way, give the WS more confusion. Anti-A technique.

Does it work for everyone? No plan works for everyone but probably more than we realize. How can a BS tell it may work? When the BS is ready to take this step her mind and heart will be more in sync ready to take progressive action.

This way also helps the BS go to plan B easier.

The above statements are my opinion. I have used this and for me it worked. Even if the WS stayed as a WS, I would still consider it successful since it did provide relief for me as a BS. You see, I eventually realized that while I wanted my H back, I did not want the WS in my home. Until he c/b the H we wanted and needed, he was going to have a hard time living with us. Of course every human being needs a home. WS' on the other hand don't derseve the comforts of their family home while they are a WS (that's my opinion). So I learned to not let the WS feel comfortable but let the H side of his personality feel the love. The WS side of his personality got he list.

Seems like we have stopped discussing that 'rollercoaster' effect scenario with these newer ones. So frustration of not seeing quick results is being relected more in these newer posts.

ZZ,
I think you are doing better. Right now you need to take care of you and your family. I recommend you learn how to differentiate between your H and the WS walking around in his clothes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Hard to do but don't give love and affection to a WS. Give it to your H. Guys like straight talking......make it simple, BEFORE he even comes into your home don't ask about the A, ask it another way......

WS: (walks into home and grunts)

BS: (walks to greet him with a smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) . Hi R U my H or WS today? (keep similing). Repeat if needed. If he gets angry, let him leave.

WS: What? I am your H.

BS: OK, (give him a peck on the cheek with that beautiful smile still shining, then go about your business).

Later in the day/evening.....the H starts to show WS tendancies bringing pain to the family......

BS: Oops, guess my H left and this strange WS has come in. Can you please tell the WS to leave? thanks.

That's the scenario. What are you accomplishing by this?

Well, you are showing by your actions that your home is a place for the H and NOT the WS. With an H you can calmly discuss A matters without major LBs. This will bring relief for the BS and family. Will this frustrate the WS? Certainly. Will it frustrate the H? A bit. That 's ok.

ZZ, as I said before, these are my opinions. You need to read all the posts and do what is best for you and your situation.

Sorry for the looong post. Just had to get this out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

My WS stayed on the fence and never really ceased wanting to have contact with me.

I have communicated the strategies suggested to me from the beginning from Steve Harley. He wanted me to do a solid PLAN A from the start. He called it MY PLAN. Worked well for me.

I am strong believer in sticking to the Harley MB principles and not striking out on our own.

JMHO.

<small>[ January 18, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

WS is definately sitting on the fence and eating cake. He knows it is wrong,he knows he is hurting me a lot and he knows what he is supposed to do but yet he is NOT doing anything about it. He has read the MB articles i have printed for him, he has agreed to see the church counselor and he knows he is at fault and he is sorry but STILL cannot make that decision.

But i have decided to do Plan A and i will stick to the plan for now. Maybe try out for 2 weeks at the most. I cannot picture myself doing this more than that. It is agonizing.

I call him just now. Ask him if he did or not see OW last night and he admit that he did. He also said sorry. I told him to tell OW that i wanted to speak to her and he said he will ask her. Now i have to find those postings about what to say to OW. I would have like to contact OW myself but i don't know anything about her!! He manage to hid her identity completely from me. The only way to find out is probably if i hire a PI.

He is coming over for dinner again tonight. Still no decision about coming home for good though. Getting him back home is beginning to look harder than i expected it to be.

Tonight i will try again to talk and convince him to end the affair. I will try my best not to do LB. If at the end, he is still undecided then what?...back off and do another talk again another day? I feel like i have done this before.

Ziggy,

In my opinion, it would be helpful for you to take a real hard look at yourself. Try to figure out why it is so difficult for you to back off and to stop being so demanding. Do you think that was a problem in your marriage? Focus on what you need to change and not on demanding that your WH stop the A. That will not work for you!! That is driving him more and more to her. Do you want to recover your marriage or not?

Why do you want to talk to the OW? What would that accomplish for you at this point. It seems that you feel like you can have power and control over them. You can only control yourself.

Stop trying to do things that might prolong the A.

I do think that it is a good idea for you to hire the PI. Now that is something effective and productive for you to do. Not the other stuff that you are doing.

Is asking about the A demanding? I did not force him to answer any of my question. I wanted to know some of it because i thought if i know a little bit about the OW then maybe i can use it to my advantage.

I told him that she knows everything about me and wreaking my marriage. It is only fair that i know something about her so I can SAVE this marriage. He also thought i have a good point. But still he did not give me her identity. I did not demand it only expressing how i feel.

Last night i had my own bad day. He came over for dinner but i did not feel like being cheerful. So as not to LB more i kept quiet. He notice and asked. I told him i was having a bad moment and feeling like throwing in the towel. He told me he understand and left home early. I honestly could not pull myself out of my depression last night. The depression is still here now as i am typing this post.


In my opinion, it would be helpful for you to take a real hard look at yourself. Try to figure out why it is so difficult for you to back off and to stop being so demanding. Do you think that was a problem in your marriage? Focus on what you need to change and not on demanding that your WH stop the A. That will not work for you!! That is driving him more and more to her. Do you want to recover your marriage or not?

Why do you want to talk to the OW? What would that accomplish for you at this point. It seems that you feel like you can have power and control over them. You can only control yourself.

Stop trying to do things that might prolong the A.

I do think that it is a good idea for you to hire the PI. Now that is something effective and productive for you to do. Not the other stuff that you are doing.

What is YOUR PLAN?


What are YOU going to work on?


Read my last post again and respond to it.

Again I say you are not doing PLAN A. Maybe you are not able to do it.

You failed in being quiet and not wanting to talk to him if conversation is what HE NEEDS. Why do you think he left?

I'm not sure about you, Ziggy? Do you want to recover your marriage or not?

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

ZZ,

How are you doing? I know you were down a couple of days ago.

I understand how wanting to know about the OW can consume the mind of the BS. When MBers here 1st told me I was wasting my energies trying to find out the gory details, I was angry. But they were right. It takes times for our hearts to see reason. It takes time.

OWs are horrible people as long as they are OWs. They maybe good people in other aspects but we don't see more than that.

Given that and the fact that you are under the weather, what do you think you would say to someone in a similar situation?

L.

I have bad news and good news, i think.

The bad news is i did a lovebuster. He went out in the afternoon saying he was visiting his mom. I had a feeling he was going to visit OW. True enough when i called him, he said he was visiting a friend and was no longer at him mom's place. I insisted to know who this friend is. That got him annoyed. I called him twice more asking silly question. This really got him mad and he told me that he feels like i was spying on him. Him saying that got me irritated and i told him my feelings that he is lying and is actually WITH OW. He denied it. Then i asked for the friend's address and told him i will drive by to see if he was telling the truth or not. He refuse to give it saying what is the point. Then he ended the conversation saying he will be back soon. He did not come home until 3 hours later.

The good news is i manage to mend my LB a little.
I knew i did a lovebuster. Forcing him, blew my plan A big time. I went back to the Notable Post threads, copied all the Plan A dos and donts and made that MY PLAN A. When he came home, i went up to him and gave him a kiss. He asked me if i was going to beat him up and i told him cheerfully that i won't do that. He had his bath and we had dinner. While he was outside smoking, I joined him and he started talking. He said honestly he could not let OW go and he was crying when he said that. He felt torn. He said it is harder because i am not the raving maniac that he was expecting. I told him not to say anymore but he insisted that he wanted to tell me how he feels. So i let him. He said physically he is at home but emotionally he is with OW. He said he cannot fill my EN and may never. He said he knows all about the fantasy and about how the relationshiop won't last when reality hits in but he is willing to take the risk. I listened and did not add anything. Later in the evening he was withdrawn and even told me that he feels restless. I cuddled him and gave him affection. Then he told me he needed to go out to have a drink and i let him. He did not come home until 2am.

Plan A is insane. After that phone call i knew i did blew my Plan A. Even when i was calling him and all, while i was doing that i knew i was blowing my PLan A but i just could not stop myself. When he is NOT being honest and open that really makes me do crazy things. All i wanted was for him to be honest with me. Why can't he just be honest if he is with OW? I did not push for NC yet so we both know she still exist in our marriage at this point of time. So why can't he just be honest if he calls OW or meet up with OW especially if i happen to ask him?

Anyway, i have printed my plan A and will try to follow it through and do a better plan A.

Is two weeks of Plan A, too short? End of January is the end of my two weeks plan. I don't know if i should extend my PLan A or it is enough and should i start Plan B?

Anyway, i have printed my plan A and will try to follow it through and do a better plan A.

Is two weeks of Plan A, too short? End of January is the end of my two weeks plan. I don't know if i should extend my PLan A or it is enough and should i start Plan B?

Have you read, "Surviving An Affair" by Dr Willard Harley?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zizzycool:
<strong>

The good news is i manage to mend my LB a little.
I knew i did a lovebuster. Forcing him, blew my plan A big time. I went back to the Notable Post threads, copied all the Plan A dos and donts and made that MY PLAN A. When he came home, i went up to him and gave him a kiss. He asked me if i was going to beat him up and i told him cheerfully that i won't do that. He had his bath and we had dinner. While he was outside smoking, I joined him and he started talking. He said honestly he could not let OW go and he was crying when he said that. He felt torn. He said it is harder because i am not the raving maniac that he was expecting. I told him not to say anymore but he insisted that he wanted to tell me how he feels. So i let him. He said physically he is at home but emotionally he is with OW. He said he cannot fill my EN and may never. He said he knows all about the fantasy and about how the relationshiop won't last when reality hits in but he is willing to take the risk. I listened and did not add anything.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, zizzy, I think you did real good here and don't think that what you did was a lovebuster. You can't sit by at home while he carries on the affair. He needs to be confronted - in a NICE WAY - with your feelings about this. It is absolutely disrespectful for him to carry on an affair from your home, rubbing your nose in it. So I would confront him nicely and tell him how much this hurts you and how disrespectful it is to do to you. You CAN'T pretend like its not happening.

In the MEANTIME, you need to keep being nice to him and explain to him that you know how unhappy you have made him in the past. Tell him that you are committed to change and know that you can make him happy in the future. Tell him that you believe you can have a happy marriage in the future and that you believe you know how to make him happy. Then try your best to demonstrate it for the next couple of weeks.

And I say couple of weeks, because I strongly suspect that it is not going to serve you well to stay in Plan A too long. BECAUSE, he is on the fe4nce and will stay there until you pull him off. And BECAUSE, I think what he is doing right now is very detructive to you.

NOW, when you do go to Plan B the next time, it will be with a good taste in his mouth because you have been in Plan A. He will MISS you lots this time. Rather than throwing him into the arms of the OW with your lovebusters, he will have something to MISS. He will MISS YOU. And since the OW doesn't have this program, SHE can be the one who does the lovebusters when he longs and mourns for you. See what I mean?? He will quickly tire of her crapola and you will be the GOOD GUY..

Zizzy, you need to find out who the OW is and if she is married. You could help the affair die if you expose the affair to her family and possibly her H if she is married. What kind of detective work have you done?

Chris & Melody

Have you seen the reality show Survivor the 1st series? That is where i live. Not on the island but on the mainland.

You see there are a lot of things not available here. Harley books are not available here. I have checked. There are no marriage counselor. As for PI, i am not sure. I have contacted a friend of mine whose dad is the deputy police chief here to see if her dad knows of any PI. I will follow up on that.

This is what i have gather from my conversation with WS regarding OW. She is single, unmarried and catholic. The way WH describes her, she sounds like an angel that could do no wrong! He said she does not like to show her feelings and is quite a quiet and reserve person. She still does not want to meet me though. And by now i don't give a sh*t either.

Another good news, WS took off the pendant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
One morning i place another cross pendant next to his chain with OW's pendant. He didnt say anything but took both with him as he went out. Later when he came back OW's pendant was no longer there and now he is wearing only the chain. I wonder what he did with my pendant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Melody, how do i ask him to stop seeing the OW without being like i am forcing him? I can express my feelings and if he doesn't want to then what? I have gently but firmly told him that he must stop seeing her but yet he still did not stop it. If I keep at it, won't it look like i am trying to force him to do something that he is not ready to do and this seemed like a love buster? I am really confuse about this point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />