Hello GoodHusband1,

I am sorry to see you are going thru this.
I have read your posts because of your log-on name is the same as the affectionate name my WH and I used to / sometimes still do share.

You seem to be struggling and at the same point in this turmoil as I am. One thing I found that has helped me are as follows:
Michelle Weiner Davis "Divorce Busting 180 degree list" (Posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan July 10th) I also found a book by Michelle Weirner Davis with the same title at Barnes & Noble.
While it seems this list is manipulative to the WS - my counselor (and I now agree) said that it also helps for you to feel better. One of the worst feelings I have had during all this is the feeling of rejection. I was being rejected when I didn't even know I was. Focusing on making yourself better and nuturing yourself (while it may seem hard) is the best thing you can do. I know you are struggling with whether to stay or leave this marriage - but think of it this way - these tools that you will learn here will make YOU a better person no matter what the outcome.
Good Luck to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you Goodwife92

I do feel all those things and much more.

I have to leave her it's time.
She won't go, I don't know why she stays to keep hurting me. I know she is in trouble and I want to help but I can't I have to let go. This is the hardest thing I ever had to do.

Is there anything I could do to get her to walk out the door and stay away from me? Or is this more a legal question?

i guess i'm a little confused. your wife is remorseful and wants your marriage to work. so how is she hurting you now?

She wants to leave to get her space and think for herself and make a decision. This after I told her that I forgive her and if she wanted to work it out, But I was not in a position to tell her that. I can't handle what happened I am crushed and It's all about her. She knows all this hurt me and she doesn't care.

I need to do what I need. I need closure before I go insane. Our marriage is not worth saving after all this pain.

He called again today. Should I call him and tell him to take care of her?

GoodHusband,
Wish I had an answer for you
I think you should stay because the choices for destroying the marriage are hers not yours
She should go thru the effort of finding a place. I believe these are the consequences for poor choices.
Don't file for divorce yet, unless you want to protect assets and don't trust her that way. If you think you are doing it to hurt her back (that's what I did and I am sorry for it)

What I did was Plan A myself to death - Reading 180 Divorce Busting list DAILY to remind me what I should and should not do. I focused on the things I loved about my WH and our marriage. I cared for him and was very considerate. He responded the way I hoped. I think it made him further confused because he started to remember his feelings for me (although he still has feelings for her too) This caused him to start and 2nd guess himself and his choices. We also had many intimate conversations about where he is at in all this. He has revealed A LOT to me about their relationship - almost confided in me about his feelings. (Reading "After the Affair" chapter 2 helped prepare me for what he was going to say. If there is one thing I learned it is this - all WS say the SAME THING - almost word for word. Reading a lot can help you anticipate what is next, but it still does HURT a LOT

I have too many D-Days of contact thru this period of Plan A. I am not going to lie and tell you it has been easy. I have been seriously depressed thru all of this, but friends and Wellbutron from my doctor has helped. I also started running and working out to release my anger (a lot of it).

As of this week, I moved out on Monday only to return Monday night and ask him to leave. We have kids and I didn't want to be without them. He stayed one more day and I still PlanA, but with much heart ache and he knew it. I told him I loved him and wanted to work on it from the beginning - but would he please leave so he could figure out what he wanted. I cared about his well being and I want him to be well, but I just want him to decide and move forward. I could not stay in this same place because it was causing me too much pain (and he saw that too - a bit of LB I am afraid)

Perhaps you could sit with her and calming talk about where she might go and explain that you need stability and moving to a new place would not give you that. Could she please simply go and think thru what she wants.

Despite what others say here, DO NOT TELL the OM's wife or family. This will push him out and then they will both be out together and it will make it worse. Sometimes the burden should be left to the ones who made the mistakes in the first place.

Sounds like your WW is a smart lady (promotion, well respected at work, etc..) she will realize that the OM is a looser once you start taking care of yourself and following the list.

IDEA - One of the things I did while trying to appear I had it all together was to go to Barnes & Noble - get a coffee and sit and read until they closed. Then I would take the long way home and arrive after 11:00pm (unlike me)I think he questioned where I was at, plus I had a nice time and gained a lot of insight without having to spend the $$ on the books.

I have another idea, but need to grab the resources first...

I think I need to file first and then if things change somewhere along the line I can always call it off.

I am a bit of a control freak and I need to get control of this situation.

As far as OM goes your right I am not feeding the fire he has and will continue to mess things up for himself. What I hate to see is him hurt her because she is just so screwed up.

This girl has had a terrible life all her life the only thing that I thought went her way was being with me, but I'm not so sure anymore if I didn't screw her up more. If you read my previous posts for <New to this Long winded>, we have been through alot, her infertility, many operations, many diappointments with it, then Adoption process that went well but she sabbatoshed it with her Affair and throwing me out of her heart. I wonder if she ever cared about me or if I was a safe haven for her for 16 years, 11 years of marriage.

I don't know anymore what to say to her nor what to do? I have always had direction. I had a very high position in a successful company for many years I ran so hard for us and when we were in good financial shape and after I almost had a heart attack I quite that job started my own bussiness got bought out by another company, went to work for that company and We were finally together more and with the adoption life was going to be great. She went the other way and had this affair with someone who will not be there for her and she still doesn't get it.

I feel for her because she is so lost and I care. I Love her family, mother, 2 sisters are great her one sister I have told about all this is telling me that I don't deserve this and to move on. Can you understand how much that hurts?

I think I need to file first and then if things change somewhere along the line I can always call it off.

Yes, if things change - you can "shelf" the divorce. HOWEVER Be careful - if there is any chance (and your comments at the bottom indicate there is a chance) then your filing will be mis understood- you don't want to be misunderstood. Before you do this TRY (even for 1 - 2 weeks) to Plan A

I am a bit of a control freak and I need to get control of this situation.
You will never get control of this situation - no matter what you do. You can only control what you choose to do. You will never control what others will do and frankly - you do not want to. I would believe that you want her to be with you because it is in her heart - not because you controlled the situation.


As far as OM goes your right I am not feeding the fire he has and will continue to mess things up for himself. What I hate to see is him hurt her because she is just so screwed up.
EXCELLENT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Good Plan -

RE: the hard times in your marriage - what I learned and now see in my own situation is that affairs are ways for others to escape. We have made some poor choices recently and despite the fact we make great $, these financial choices are hurting us. I think my WH affair was his way of putting his head into the ground and forget. Of course he has a great time with her - he does not have any major life stressors like kids, finances, house, etc...

I don't know anymore what to say to her nor what to do? I have always had direction.
All the more reason to do a very strong Plan A- make it a game for you. I removed myself and laughed at my situation when it became too painful - (it is very "ricky lake" like - you can click on my name and read recent posts. My first post in November tells my story)
Just Plan A - at least until you discover what is really in your heart - also do the things on the 180 Divorce Busting List - it will be good practice for what you should do in a marriage - no matter who you are with.

I feel for her because she is so lost and I care. I Love her family, mother, 2 sisters are great her one sister I have told about all this is telling me that I don't deserve this and to move on.
This is the bad part - I feel for my husband too. If he choose a life with the OG (21 yr old distant cousin from Europe - YUCK) - he will ruin his life. This again is why plan A is important - reminder her who she had in you - try to get her to come back to why you fell in love in the first place - 16 years ago!

Can you understand how much that hurts?
YES <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I don't remember - are you seeing a counselor - are you taking any anti-anxiety meds? I was against them at first, but I have found that they really help even me out. It is like a rollercoaster that I no longer want to be on and I am so very sad most of the time. Sometimes I don't even want to get out of bed, but then I remember how strong I am and try to think of things I can do to feel better (not trying to hurt others (WH or OG), but positive things I can do that will have positive impact everywhere.
Sometimes I wish there was a support group locally that I could go to, but this web site is about the best thing I could find.

Found the Carol's story link - look at the General Questions - I posted NEED CAROLS STORY
Read the link - it is a long one (you should be used to that) but it is a great story.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by goodhusband1:
I think I need to file first and then if things change somewhere along the line I can always call it off.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this sounds a little backwards to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a bit of a control freak and I need to get control of this situation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this explains a lot. you'd be surprised at how much control you gain by giving it away. try it some time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I hate to see is him hurt her because she is just so screwed up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">let it happen, as long as he doesn't harm her physically. it's the only way she will be able to break her addition is to see him as he is and not how he wants her to think he is. meanwhile, you become the man that makes her proud to call you her husband.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This girl has had a terrible life all her life the only thing that I thought went her way was being with me, but I'm not so sure anymore if I didn't screw her up more.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">folks, we have a rescuer in the house. i am somewhat, too (i'm a man ... i can't help it). stop trying to solve her problems. she doesn't want you to do it now. chances are she never wanted you to solve them. if she's like most women, she wanted you to listen to her and facilitate her in solving her problems on her own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... we have been through alot, her infertility, many operations, many diappointments with it, then Adoption process that went well but she sabbatoshed it with her Affair and throwing me out of her heart.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">crazy enough, people are very succeptible to affairs in the wake of tragedy and personal turmoil. it's not a surprise. it's not hard to find numerous stories here of members who have lost children to any number of tragic ends, from rare diseases to accidents, only to then have infidelity touch their lives, too. seek out people like worthatry (or wat) for some perspective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder if she ever cared about me or if I was a safe haven for her for 16 years, 11 years of marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">we all ask that question when a spouse has an affair. but think about it for a moment. what else is a marriage if it isn't a safe haven?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She went the other way and had this affair with someone who will not be there for her and she still doesn't get it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so your decision to abandon her, too, will help her get it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you understand how much that hurts?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes. we've all been, or are now, in the same spot as you. we do understand.

personally, i think you're throwing in the towel too soon. things you write about your wife's state of mind right now are normal. she knows she can't depend on the om, and she's beginning to see that what she felt for him is and what she thought he felt for her is a lie.

frankly, you have a golden opportunity if you desire to save your marriage. if you decide to go through with the divorce, no one here will harbor ill will toward you. it's your choice.

whichever you choose the pain you feel won't go away without some hard work. at least make sure you tackle that aspect of this.

How do I get by while she is still home and looking for a place to go?

How do I look at her without wanting to LB when she is being supernice to me?

How when she tells me to understand she is screwed up and time away is her therapy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

did you READ whippit's post...

If you did, read it again....

and again
and again....

you are moving way to fast to make any good decisions right now....
slow down..............

why are you supporting her moving out...
she should not be moving out....

you are both running....
understandable....but i wish you'd put the brakes on it...and cool your jets....

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by goodhusband1:
How do I get by while she is still home and looking for a place to go?

How do I look at her without wanting to LB when she is being supernice to me?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOU CHOOSE TO 'GET BY.'
YOU CHOOSE TO NOT LB.
THAT'S HOW.

to both ARK and wippit.

She is the one that insists on moving out for her to make her own desision and for her to know that she can make it without me.

She is the one pushing away from me, then when I say ok, She cry's but tells me she must go it's her therapy.

Yes I need to vent some where and I need people like you to remind me why I should not do what my brain tells me but do what I tell my brain.

FYI I cancelled my appointment with the attorney tonight until I can get my head straight. secondly I called my wife to tell her I stopped the attorney, and that I hurt because she is leaving. I gave her all the pasture she may need, I told her if she needs to go go it's OK I'm here !!!!!!!!!! I wish her the best and a quick recovery. I still have to work on the rest of what to say. She told me she is looking at an apartment this afternoon 1 town over and the one she was going to take in Nov. 03 near her office, she perfers to stay close to home because she knows I won't like her being close to work. I said it's OK just don't hurt me and take care of yourself.

Am I heading in the wrong direction. Is this Plan A. or Plan B?

in marriage building theory...you can't do plan b without a good plan a...

keep telling her kindly you don't want her to leave...

each time you react negatively...it will be used against you to re-affirm her "justification" in leaving...

none of this is to deny the existance nor even the justice of your pain...goodhusband...
but one of the problems is that she can't address your pain...without such reflection on to her...(where it does belong)...but facing it right now causes her and most to take the easy way out...run run run....

here is something I said recently to lostwithout her.....I beg forgiveness for it is tinged with cheesiness..and yet I thought it applicable...
Your wife is in huge conflict....

***the good news is and the truth is that she is totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now...you or the OM..let go of the fear and thought of competition and choosing...

her actions are actions that she does not like in herself right now....

her actions towards you, the OM, and herself...keep her from engaging in any type of real interactions...

all she offers are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in her life...
yet the filling is way to fleeting to sustain her and the truth is with her each night lays down her regardless of whom is next to her....

she is the living cliche..of no matter where you go to hide...there YOU are...

she is lost to herself...

and you stand at that point of being her lighthouse home....even though she creates the waves that block her vision from seeing that...

You become the lighthouse..you fill your home wiht light, calmness and sanctuary...

see just visualize yourself as a lighthouse...

Your offer her glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...
you invite her towards it...let her know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way....

she is untrustable right now...
but you know that...so she can't hurt you right now...she will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better...


set clear boundaries that the OM is not part of your lives....
without lovebusting...

Do not discuss and or powerstruggle with her on her irrational movements...seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when she chooses correctly....

your wife is very lonely and sad right now..but that is OK...no one can stay very long in that chaos...it is wearisome to the soul...
and remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to her chaos...and eventually she will see that you are the only one...who stood with clarity and reason when she needed it most...

be the lighthouse.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I told you it was cheesey...

you make her leaving as difficult as you can..by making that home a sanctuary...
and thought it may smack of game and mind playing

keep your eye on the bigger prize of a healthier marriage on the other side of this....

ARK

Ark you drain the tears from me..... Thanks

I want this I understand it it makes sense IT IS so tiring and it's hurts so much.......

I have had many challenges in life this is to much.
I thought I was strong and I am looking for that strength I will find it I just hope when I do I still want to be there. Remember I have to look in the mirror some day too.

I don't have much left can you give me a clearer and simple understanding of plan A. Is it to be me and love above everything, let her do as she askes but let her know I forgive and want the best for her, then tell her "Stay and find yourself or go and find yourself you'll like what you will find". Is that what Plan A is?

it would be wise for you to go read everything there is to read at the content portion of marriage builders. start by clicking here to learn about plan and plan b.

then, once you've done that decide what it is you want. once you figure that out your blueprint writes itself.

it does sound like you made some progress there. use it to build further learning upon. you see, every bs that comes here has been in the exact same position as you are right now. we struggled then and we struggle now, too. but we've learned how to overcome, if for no other reason than we've chosen to overcome.

all of the ones who find success (and by success i mean able to find happiness with or without their spouses) are ones who developed some mastery of the principles taught here at the site. (mind you, these principles are not unique to mb, as human behavior is relatively predictable—stimulus a drives response b. dr. phil's approach is quite similar, for instance.)

web page


someday I swear I will learn the correct way to link a post.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You can walk away...no one could stop you or blame you...
but the truth is that those decisions made rashly and in such pain...are usually not good ones...
this advice is offerred not because I/we believe in saving each and every marriage...
but because experience has taught that decisions made harshly and early in process are usually regretted....so this is an attempt to save you from more pain....more chaos down the line....

ARK

sorry ... pressed the enter key too soon.

to finish my thought ... for the people were successful there was no magic, there was no secret. and it wasn't easy. and that's what's made the experience truly meaningful.

i honestly thought my marriage was doomed, too. i thought there's no way in hell that i would be married to this woman a year from now. it's not because i didn't want it. it was because i didn't think she wanted it.

it was my dad who kept telling me not to worry about what my wife does. i can't control that. what could control was how i responded and behaved and grew and learned and felt and everything else you can think of that i can actually control.

it was the key to survival for me.

it can be they key to yours, too. if you choose it.

it was my dad who kept telling me not to worry about what my wife does. i can't control that. what could control was how i responded and behaved and grew and learned and felt and everything else you can think of that i can actually control.
This is such great advice. As stated earlier - release control over others, only control how you choose to act/behave/do.

Good Husband, during my plan A - I used visualization. I actually visualized the great feeling of depositing into "savings" the love I was putting in my WH's love bank. I felt great about the "investment" I was making and thought no matter what happens, it will benefit me in many ways...
1. It will benefit me, because I will offer kindness to someone who least deserves it.
2. I will feel better about myself because I know I am not the person he has conjured up in his mind to justify his actions. Hopefully he will see that too and then be able to confront himself
3. If we reconcile, it will be easier for both of us to see how we want to be to one another
4. If we part, I will have good feelings that we did not part in bitter rage, but in calm loving way.

Well I came home and spoke calmly with WW. I told her that if she feels that strongly about having space and being independent and that OM is gone. I understand, The only thing I asked for is for respect and when she can make a decision I 'll be here. I also told her if she needs to talk during this time call me, I will help her however I can.

I understand the inportance of the freedom she craves it just was done so hurtful that I find it repulsive.

I guess if you give her the pasture she may come back to the barn...

She told me it may take her a week or two to find an apartment and move some stuff. I said don't rush find the right place that makes you feel confortable.

I notices she is emotionally very unstable, she started to cry and said she doesn't want to hurt me no more, BUT she has to do this so she is sure of what she wants. I heard "I'm putting a knife in your heart" BUT I responded "I understand.

I know she has many insecurities that we both ignored by habit and she needs to address them on her own. It still hurts.

Whippit , thanks for the link to plan A & B. I understand it much better, I will try to choose to use it more.

ARK
As far as walking away, I am going to hold off until I either see change or I confirm he is gone. She is very needy and when she crashes she will contact me for help, if she doesn't call then I'll know and I will grieve my pain again, and then find happiness.
As you can tell my brain is always looking into the future the day to day thing doesn't exist for me. Yet another change that is required I'll address that as I go because I want to be a better person no matter what happens here.

GH,
Your time during the apartment hunt is SO critical. Make it so she does not want to leave.

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A

Are you seeing a counselor or do you have a close friend who can cheerlead for you during this?