I think that the biggest obstical I am facing right now is that my H doesn't BELIEVE that I am back in the marriage 100% and that I really DO and AM "in love" with him. However, he does still continue to talk with me, and I AM encouraged by this. But because of the history I have had with him of lying to him, even after my A was discovered, he still does not believe that I have fallen back in love with him. The other problem is that he has previously done SO much talking, that whenever I try to turn the conversation to him, to try and get him to express his feelings of depression, etc., he tells me that he just doesn't want to talk about himself, that he is tired of doing the talking.
How can I help to bring him back out of his shell and open up to me about his own depression and the way that he is feeling?

SUR

Perhaps a post from a regular on MB will help - Beau

It is frustrating to know your mate does not trust you. The knowledge can be quite painful. It is also, underneath the hurt, empowering. You know what is wrong, so now you can figure out how to fix it.Trust is earned, as is credibility. It is not something freely given, no matter how much society tries to pretend that it is. Trust is earned by repeatedly telling verifiable truths. It is earned by not causing harm to another. It is earned when someone is always there to catch us when we fall. It is damaged when someone allows us to fall or, worse, is the cause of the tumble. It is damaged when untruths are detected. It makes us question what else has occurred. What else was dishonest? When else were you pushed and caused to stumble?The answer to the loss of trust is to realize first that there is a reason for it. Second, you need to take responsibility for it. Third, you need to accept that it takes time to rebuild trust. Fourth, you need to behave in a trustworthy manner so as to actually rebuild the trust. People come to me all the time complaining that their spouse doesn’t trust them. My answer is to repair their credibility and behave in a verifiably trustworthy manner. “He should just know I’m telling the truth.” No. Read The National Enquirer. Do you just know that any article in there is true? I hope not. The problem is credibility. Until you rebuild your own, you must rely on the credibility of other things that independently verify your truthfulness.Spouses who have lost credibility make the mistake of trying to stand on it anyway. If you try to stand on a bridge that isn’t there, you are going to fall. Same thing happens when you try to stand on missing credibility. They also try to push it to be the problem of the spouse who doesn’t trust them. “She just has trust issues.” My answer is, “She has issues trusting you because you’ve taught her that trusting you leads to pain and/or humiliation. She shouldn’t trust you. Want trust? Earn it.”Final analogy: trust isn’t like the lottery, where you get a lot for practically nothing. It’s more like a paycheck that has to be earned.[ November 26, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]

AA Lesson in Honesty, aka “Coming Clean”


I’d always heard that if you tell one lie, you eventually must tell another one to cover up the first. But I didn’t really understand the implications of continuing this pattern over several years. The web woven by my expanding matrix of lies grew and grew until it devastated every aspect of my life. Obviously it affected my relationship with my spouse.

My analysis starts with the “crash”. I hit the low point of my life the day I was fired for viewing inappropriate websites at work. I had to go home and explain. Without much thought, I proceeded home and begged for forgiveness. I thought our discussion would be about jobs and careers and boredom at work. But my wife wanted more of an explanation. She wanted to know everything. What had I looked at? Who had I emailed? Why was I unable to avoid this outcome, after being caught and reprimanded three months earlier?

Her questioning uncovered an addiction to sex. It revealed the tip of an iceberg that I believed would never be fully disclosed. I knew there was a deep-seated problem, but I had never identified it. Even in numerous discussions with professional psychologists, it hadn’t come to light. Oh, they were good. But I kept the details to myself, making it impossible for them to diagnose the problem.

Now, the rules have changed. If I want to stay in the relationship I will have to be completely honest. I will have to reveal everything I ever did that might be considered inappropriate. Every woman I was with, every bar I visited, every dollar I spent. But I can’t remember them all. Really, I can’t. I am confused. I am hurting, and feeling an incredible amount of guilt. Each story I tell about my indiscretions is rooted in a lie. Not only did I hurt her by acting so selfishly on those uncontrollable desires, but I lied to her. I lied to make the situations possible; I lied to cover them up; I lied to protect her.
So when she said, “ Is that all, is that everything?”, I believed it was all. I believed I had told the whole truth, and I was satisfied with that. I believed that because I was lying to myself. The rest didn’t matter. No one would ever know about those indiscretions that remain unspoken. There was enough found out to fire me, to bury me, to leave me. That’s enough, I thought. But there was more.

One painful vision at a time, they came out. Revealed by stray records of money spent, or by recovered files of emails forgotten. With each new revelation came deeper pain for my wife, who had endured all she could imagine by then. But the web of lies was thick, and it took some time to get through it all. There was much pain. Unnecessary pain, that could have been prevented by an injection of honesty anywhere along the road.

Amazing as it is, she and I are together today. Living by new rules that are preventing a new lie from getting a foothold. The new rules include 100 percent accountability for time, money, where-abouts, and behavior. When I first agreed to follow these rules, it appeared impossible. But it is possible. And now I consider the rules my friends, because they are helping to keep me where I want to be. Out of trouble and in this relationship. I wish I had understood how easily I could get in so deep. It started with one lie.

©Travis “Pat” Alexander October 2002

nother article - Beau

SUR:

I think you ought to be careful you might be trying too aggressively in convincing your H you're in the M "100%".

The fact that you didn't tell your H about the A for months is revealing. I didn't find out about my W's A until some weeks after it ended. Both during and after it, she was an absolute fire-breathing dragon to me, and treated me very callously, and occasionally would subject me to these anger eruptions.. It was worse during the "post A, Pre D-Day" period.

I found her attitude to me to be very emotionally eroding. Of course, I didn't know about the A; I just assumed I was somehow failing as her H. But, id did affect my self esteem, and to be honest I don't think I could have put up with it for months without something snapping. I mean, I was close to leaving my W only because I thought I was such a f**k-up and she would be better off without me.

I guess I am saying this: in all honesty, how have you treated H during the time after your A with OM ended and before D-day? How were you treating him before the A ended?

Did you treat him in a way that is worth coming back to?

This whole thing has been about you. YOU were unhappy, so YOU had an affair. Then YOU were in a fog for a year when YOU didn't want to do anything about the marriage, but now all of a sudden YOU want to get things back on track. You're here 100%!!!

Your H, on the other hand, has been in reaction mode througout it. When you didn't give a damn about him, he had to accept that. Now all of a sudden you *DO* give a damn, and "boom!" he's supposed to give one too.

Ease off a bit. I am not doubting you are 100%, but I am just trying to give you some insight into why your H may not be buying the pies you're selling.

Thank you uphill, as what you write, is very close to how I am feeling. I am SUR's (not quite there yet's) BS.

I have been back IN the M. 100% since about 1 week after D-day. (not that I really ever left).

For me D-day was a true wake up call. I immediatly began reading and looking on line for answers. In addition to others, I thankfully found the MBer's website. That prompted me to then go and buy "Surving an Affair". All of this material showed me where I had gone wrong and how I could attempt to do better and maybe fix it.

Within 2 weeks I was doing all the things I knew to do, as well as doing the things my WW said she wanted and needed. I started individual counsoling (for my own depression, pre affair), started couples counsoling, began to meet the needs she said meant the most to her, & as much as I could the others as well.

I immediatly took ownership in my "part" in all that went on. Understanding that although it was her "choice" to do what she did, I did contribute to the "conditions" that made it all possible.
And as just for me, the "Rules" and such that the MB'ers prescribed to just really made sense to me. So I tried to get my WW to read and learn as well, but to no avail.

Anyway, the only thing I asked of my wife both in person and in our sessions, was that she be "open and honest" with me about everything. Yes, that especially meant about her 2 year affair.

For some the "knowing" may not be important. But my personality wants to know the "details" about things in everyday life, so I darn well wanted the details about this, the worst thing that ever happend to me.

My wife said she understood. But said it was too hard to talk to me face to face. We agreed she could write or type her responses. To shorten it all, she did indeed write me letters sometimes 6-10 pages long. And they seemed so heartfelt and sincere. And of course I wanted to believe her (I always have).

However, come to find out on the key topics most of her "admissions" were pure fiction. Here we are supposedly "working' on the marriage and all she continues to do is lie to me.
Why?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> The affair is supposedly over??

She was also lying to our MC and even her own IC (what's that about...cause I have NO access to those discussions). So she even lies to those who are trying to Help here.

Her excuse is that she either doesn't want to hurt me anymore OR doesn't want to look any worse than she already does (to me or anyone else...especially, someone in authority).

This doesn't set with me. How can she Hurt me any more than she already has?
OR How can she look any worse than she already does?

For me, in both cases, she can't.
But she doesn't get it. She also doesn't get that its not just getting the answers that helps me. It is her WILLINGNESS to open up and share the truth with me that WILL inable me to start to trust her again.

But instead I continually find out lie after lie, by her getting tripped up with her own words. This is why I feel she doesn't really want to talk to me about the affair. She gets "caught" when she can't remember what it is she said (lied)about 2-3 months ago.

The sad part for her is maybe she is back now. (Flip a coin).
Unfortunately, she's already told me that line last Jan., and in March, and in July,... ect., and it sure wasn't true then.

Instead she was lying to me! And all the while my "love bank" (which was high) has been losing love units. And now its to the point that I am Not "in love' with her anymore.

I've done my best, but after a year+ I'm tired of the fight. I've come to realize that 1 person CANNOT make it work by themselves.

WW checked out of the relationship many years ago and has just never fully come back. She's only concerned for our 3 girls and also doesn't want to be Alone.
[OM is long gone, as she was just "fun" for him]

I've repeatedly told SUR that for now my Most Important EN is honesty from her. Instead of meeting that need her response is to ask me to tell her others that she can try and meet. WTF?

I'm like "if you can't meet my #1 need, what's the point in trying the others?" You need to get through 1st grade before going on to 2nd.

I don't know if SUR just can't be honest (because of Who she became during her affair) or if its because she just won't be?

In any case, it is she who has destroyed her own CREDIBILITY!

And not because of her affair. No, because of all the lies, ommissions, secrets, and false impressions AFTER the affair was done and gone and we were "supposedly" working on US!

And no its not that she is never honest.
But even when she is its like a police interigation to get anything out of her. That type of "conversation" just further shows me that she's NOT back in 100%.

Because I do NEED to talk about it (the affair). And no, not every day.
But Not NEVER either. And yet, when I try to suggest compromises (such as set aside time and time limits) that's not right with her either. Its as though while I was fighting for us she was fighting against. Well, all my fight is just about gone.


Oh yea, SUR has just started coming here in the last month. What she is looking for from you all is the quick fix, the easy answers, or the "magic" bullet that will make it all better. (for her).
She's already proven to me that she has NO intrest in doing the REAL work that's necessary for true healing (for us both).

Instead, as always, its all about HER!

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

Hey, what gives?

I check in... and you all check out.

Talk about a "thread killer".
Sheesh!

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>