IF INTERESTED, MY STORY CAN BE FOUND IN "GENERAL QUESTIONS -> EXPOSING AN AFFAIR..."


WAT:

I appreciate your posting. I've been thinking about this for quite some time. I really do not care about my wife anymore. I am too hurt, mad, angry, etc. I SWEAR I DO NOT HAVE ANY POSITIVE FEELINGS LEFT FOR HER. The only time I get depressed nowadays is when I see my daughter miss her mommy.

I did not get mad at W for seeing boyfriends, I got mad because she continues to lie and she has to "poke" me every time she talks to me and tell me about her new boyfriends, but then she lies about the ones in London. Go figure.

As to making my marriage work, I lost all the faith I had in my W. I am almost convinced that it will be in the best interest of my daughter to be raised without the mother she has. She does not need to be around a WHOR*. Plus I don't think my W has the ability to faithful anyway. Just look at her family. All of the females in her family have been divorced at least once, betrayed their husbands at least once.

I've been also analyzing our marriage and came to a conclusion that W has been lying to me ever since we met. It was stupid little things, it was big things, you name it, she lied about it. She has never really cared for me or attempted to meet my ENs (maybe initially when we met). She always wanted to "got out with her friends" and leave me home even when we did not have a baby, was always fighting to get her way (in a silent way sometimes) and if she did not, I was a "bad" person for a week or a month or whatever. Everything about her (the way she acts, talks, even the way people talk about her) tells you she is a fair compromising person, who will give before taking. But when I started thinking back, I had to agree that yes she is that way, but to everybody except for me. Maybe, I am in a "betrayal" fog and am not thinking clearly and only remembering the bad things, but why is it so hard to remember the good things if they happened and if there was a lot of them?

As for the D, I am ready to go do it. I DO NOT AND CANNOT TRUST HER TO COME BACK AND BE A FAITHFUL (FOR LIFE), LOVING, CARING WIFE AND MOTHER.

See, one more thing that is confusing the hell out of me is that I am Russian. It is so against russian beliefs for women to betray their Hs or for men to ever forgive their Ws for betrayal if it ever happens (almost never). This whole MB and "making marriage work no matter what" thing is totally against my deepest beliefs. Women cheated on me in the past after which they were history. I never ever tried to reconcile w/any of them and they tried. There were a lot a lot of things in our M that were against my lifestyle, vision of marriage, etc. But I was ok w/them. I realize I am in a different country/culture, things are different here. I never pushed her to be a "russian" wife, I took/accepted/loved her the way she was with all the deviations from a perfect wife (in my mind in comparison to a russian wife), personal emotional problems (there was a lot), and whatever else. The only thing I was trying to change in her was to make her be more organized, goal oriented, stay in school, work, be responsible financially, etc. She was the one who was trying to do a complete overhaul of me since day 1.

anyway, this is getting way too long. I don't think I can ever take her back or trust her again. I wish there were some statistics on how many marriages lasted a lifetime after As, betrayals, etc. I just don't have faith in her or us anymore...

oh, yeah forgot to mention. Anti-depressants help tremendously. recommend to everyone.

Everybody here will agree that some marriages cannot be saved. Many will agree that some SHOULDN'T be saved.

Behind my recommendations to you was the thought that if your marriage ends, that you may be better off in the long term if you let your wife initiate the divorce and follow it through. You shouldn't resist it, just allow her to proceed. This would allow you to be completely guilt free.

It will be smart on your part to talk to an attorney to get advice to protect you and your daughter.

WAT

The only thing that is keeping her from filing is the fact that I may have complications with my immigration paperwork. I've also made an appointment with an immigration attorney to see what kind of complications I may have and what it would take to resolve them (man, hiring two attorneys is going to be expensive...). If there is going to be no problems should I let her know so she can feel free to file? I can hold off on filing for D as I really don't care if we are legally married or not (we are not in my head anymore). The only thing that's holding me up I guess is the fact that I am somewhat uncomfortable starting my life over until I am legally single.

You wrote: "This whole MB and "making marriage work no matter what" thing is totally against my deepest beliefs"

As for me, I am a conservative Catholic who married a conservative Catholic. I went into marriage with the attitude that I am going to stay married no matter what, and I got the no matter what. In fact, one person told me, "Be committed to the institution of marriage and not just the person you marry." BAD ADVICE!!!! Marriage is about mutual care. You don't have a marriage unless you care for the other person and that person cares for you. You only have control over what you do.

MB is NOT about staying married no matter what. I have listened to Harley's radio show for over two years. What he says is that you have a happy marriage or you get divorced, legally separated, or go into Plan B. Do not tolerate a bad marriage.

You can offer your W the choice to work on meeting your ENs and you'll work on meeting hers, or you will be in Plan B. That is what MB preaches.

I've had a bad marriage right from the start. What a horrible model for our children. I have concluded that we would be better off divorced than having an abuse-free, affair-free, emotionally distant marriage. It just plain isn't good enough.

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

broken heart:

I love your last paragraph. that's one of the reasons I've made up my mind to file (or now I am thinking maybe go to Plan B).

After analyzing my marriage I come to a conclusion that yes I've screwed up big time. I've commited 100% of myself to that woman, forgot my friends, hobbies, interests, etc. I was giving her everything I could think of. My screw up was that I was giving her the wrong things. I was not meeting her ENs (some of them were met very well).

the other conclusion I came to is that my needs were not met. My needs are: physical attraction (met, she is a beatiful woman), recreational companionship (rarely), admiration (rarely), sexual fulfillment (nope), honesty and openness (nope), domestic support (half-way). she always knew what my needs were as we've talked about it (not in the ENs context and the need of their satisfaction, but just what we like and want from each other).

I want a good happy affair proof emotional involved loving caring trusting interesting relationship and I am not sure if she can give me that...

No marriage is affair-proof. No matter how much you care for another person, you will always find others attractive. If you are selfish, you will indulge yourself somehow.

What you can do is focus on your spouse. At the moment, your spouse seems to not be interested in meeting your ENs. She may be capable of it. You don't know. At some point in the future, she may be willing to work on it.

I have no clue how people do Plan A when they know there is an affair going on. I had a tough time dealing with what I thought was an EA that had ended. Anyway, Plan B (with legal separation papers or not) is Harley's way for you to PROTECT your own willingness to work on the marriage when she is ready.

Good luck.

hey, thanks again.

i've been thinking about going to Plan B, however I don't think I've done enough for her to remember the "good" me. I know that one of the main reasons of Plan A is to break up the A. Well, I did. I know she is still talking to him, but she is no longer interested or is emotionally involved w/him. So what does she do? Starts a bunch of new As...

And I don't really care about the As anymore. they still hurt me and stuff. The thing that gets me is that she tries really hard to hurt me every time we have contact, lies constantly, uses me (fix a car, fix a garbage disposal, install a CD player, fix her cell phone, etc., etc...) I can help her and be her friend (it's gonna be tough but I can make), but she'll just have it all: me as a friend and freedom to sleep around... SHE IS NOT GETTING BOTH. I KNOW SHE IS NOT READY TO CHOOSE BETWEEN ME (WELL, SHE IS BUT NOT IN MY FAVOR) AND "HER OWN LIFE", BUT SHE IS GONNA HAVE TO... (somewhat referring to Carol's story, even though she has waited for quite some time...)

Priviet!I&#8217;m not that often anymore here on MB and caught your post by chance. Just adding my 0.02$ - you&#8217;re the third story here (apart from mine and BigStar&#8217;s) whose wives changed completely and beyond recognition once they settled here after coming from the former sov. union. Bottom line is (I speak for my case now &#8211; maybe it applies in your case too), that they seem to lose all moral, cultural, social and behavioural compass. Attempting to shed all what they brought from their home country and trying to be more western than the most western girl. F**ing scary if you suddenly see the person you love(d) most turn into a barely recognisable monster. Esli khochesh skashi tvoi email, moshno perepisat.
Cheers,
N

<small>[ January 15, 2004, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

oops double post

<small>[ January 15, 2004, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

hey, nick.

thanks for the post. my email is assap6@hotmail.com if you wanna drop me a line.

Just a clarification: my W is not russian, she was born and raised here in Alaska. I am the one who comes from Russia.

WS is in London visiting both OMs (got involved w/one while still w/me, w/the other one after moving out). NC for two days. Feeling good...

Looks like I will not be filing for divorce due to possible immigration complications.

Plan B since I am feeling so good after two days of NC?

Well, I'm not an expert, and I haven't found any step-by-step rules for every BS to follow, but in my opinion, you've done everything you could with what you've had to work with. So I think you need to get yourself formally into Plan B.

I've only been in Plan B myself for about 10 days now, officially, but it's amazing how much of a difference it can make. Your W continues to do things that cause you such pain, intentionally or unintentionally, and you need to protect yourself from that. You need to remove her ability to continue to hurt you by having NC.

You didn't choose the situation you find yourself in, and I'm sure you wouldn't have if given the choice. But you have to make the best of the situation, and continuing to be so angered and so hurt by the choices she's making is not the best option. But neither is YOU filing for Divorce. If you're like most of the people here, if given the choice, their first pick would be to have a happy relationship with their CURRENT PARTNER. If that's the case, filing for Divorce WILL NOT get you from here to there. Immigration issues or not, YOU don't need to file for Divorce. YOU need to get into Plan B. But in case you're not sure, ask yourself some questions as you consider filing for Divorce...
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would be GOOD about filing?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would be BAD about filing?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would be GOOD about not filing?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would be BAD about not filing?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the best way to get as much GOOD as you can, with as little BAD as possible?</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you'll find that Plan B will provide you with most, if not all, of the GOOD, without burdening you with much, if any, of the BAD. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I've thought about it and I do not know if I want to try building a relationship w/her again. If something magic happened and she changed and I could see that she really wanted our M to work then yes I would love to make it work w/her. Maybe most people say that they want to make it work w/their CURRENT PARTNER is because they do not yet have anybody else, who is as emotionally elevated as their spouses, in their lifes. don't know. let me answer the questions you asked here and please let me know if i'm all screwed up

<b>What would be GOOD about filing?</b>
it will be a shock for her, which may possibly make her come out of the fog and realize that she can no longer have me waiting and willing to take her back on one side and complete freedom to go on the other side. the other good thing is I'll feel free to cross the years we've been together out of my life and start over. I am still young and used to be very popular w/ladies, so I am sure I will be able to find a good mate soon.

<b>What would be BAD about filing?</b>
the fact that I am gonna have to tell my daughter that I was the one who "broke up" the family when she grows up. also, it will give WS the sense of security, she'll know she has something/somebody to fall back on if her life does not work out

<b>What would be GOOD about not filing?</b>
again, back to my daughter. I don't want to be the bad guy in her eyes.

<b>What would be BAD about not filing?</b>
emotional rollercoaster. I know it's only been a month of "officially separated" for me, but she is the kind of person that knows how to hurt you deep inside and does it constantly and i am not the kind of person who takes that kind of BULLS**T from anybody. I guess that could be accomplished w/Plan B, but where is MY freedom? Why does she have the right to do whatever the hell she wants and I have to be a puppy waiting around for something that may never happen. I WANT MY LIFE BACK.

<b>What is the best way to get as much GOOD as you can, with as little BAD as possible?</b>
I guess, the answer to that one is Modified Plan B: NC, plus I tell myself I am no longer married (even though paperwork is not done) and just start my life over again. by the time, she (or I) files, I'll be emotionally detached from her and our M will be put behind me.

Thoughts?

In order to make the text bold use the [ character and not the < character.

I do not know if I want to try building a relationship w/her again.
As long as you are unsure of what you want to do, then do nothing.
When you are sure you don’t want to work it out, you will divorce.

Maybe most people say that they want to make it work w/their CURRENT PARTNER is because they do not yet have anybody else
Which is why people get screwed up about what they want.

{What would be GOOD about filing?}
it will be a shock for her, which may possibly make her come out of the fog and realize that she can no longer have me waiting and willing to take her back on one side and complete freedom to go on the other side.
Do not file unless you want a divorce. Don’t try to manipulate her.

the other good thing is I'll feel free to cross the years we've been together out of my life and start over.
All those years were so terrible and hateful to you that you need to erase them all?

I am still young and used to be very popular w/ladies, so I am sure I will be able to find a good mate soon.
What’s the rush?

<b>What would be BAD about filing?</b>
the fact that I am gonna have to tell my daughter that I was the one who "broke up" the family when she grows up.
Uh, that would be the wayward spouse, not you. Also, how old is your daughter? If she is at least 5-6, then she is old enough yo know NOW why he family is apart.

<b>What would be GOOD about not filing?</b>
again, back to my daughter. I don't want to be the bad guy in her eyes.
You are only the bad guy, if you act like the bad guy and not explain what you are doing and what is right.
Is the Dr. a bad guy cause he gives her a shot and it hurts?

<b>What would be BAD about not filing?</b>
emotional rollercoaster.
So once a divorce is complete, everything “magically” gets better and all your feelings are now great?

<b>What is the best way to get as much GOOD as you can, with as little BAD as possible?</b>
I guess, the answer to that one is Modified Plan B: NC, plus I tell myself I am no longer married (even though paperwork is not done) and just start my life over again.
What does “tell myself I am no longer married” mean? That you will start dating? What will that teach your daughter?

by the time, she (or I) files, I'll be emotionally detached from her and our M will be put behind me.
Why is this a “modified” Plan B? This is EXACTLY what Plan B accomplishes. When /if it comes time to divorce, you are emotionally detached and can do it with much less trauma.

I like your answers...at least I understand the feelings behind them, so let me share something with you. If you go to Plan B, here's the basics of what you'll get...

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Emotional Detachment</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Shock Value"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sending the message that you won't sit around and accept the continued hurtful behaviors</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The knowledge that YOU didn't take that step to end the marriage, and to break up mommy and daddy</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ability to feel "comfortable" moving forward with your life, as you'll be removing the daily chaos brought on by dealing with your WS</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Here's what you won't get with Plan B...

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Total, complete, and final termination of your marriage</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The "freedom" to get involved with someone else</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I'm sure there's more to both lists, but that's what I've found so far. And remember, getting involved with someone else doesn't exactly mean "heaven on earth". Most often, unless you get really lucky, you'll just be trading your current problems for a set of new ones. So there's no guarantee that the "freedom" to go out and date will bring more happiness.

Chris,

thanks for the post. I guess I am not unsure about what I want to do at this point. I was so mad and hurt when she left for London and we had that conversation during which she lied to me about her current relationship w/OM and said she just wanted to be by herself and all that. That's why I scheduled an appointment with an immigration and a divorce attorney and was ready to go file the next day. I cooled off a bit and now just thinking "she is in some major fog, thus the behavior".

I keep going back and forth about our relationship. Like I said, there weren't many times when my needs were met (I am not saying I was perfect either), but we did have a good marriage, good relationship, a lot of happy moments, a lot of difficulties were overcome together, etc.

Still lost and confused when it comes to my feelings. Hate her one minute, understand (will never accept) her behavior and am willing to forgive and reconcile the other minute.

I know people get screwed up by starting new relationships too early, but again this lifestyle with on the rollercoaster is not me. I know I can easily withdraw, forget and get over a relationship (have done so in the past), but again I would like to be totally over this whole thing before starting a new relationship, but it is so tempting to find someone to get your needs met.

I was not trying to manipulate her by filing. It was just a possible "side effect". I was really seriously ready to kick her out of my life.

as for my daughter, she is only 18 months old, but I can tell she sees everything. she gets a very sad look in her eyes and looks for mommy every time we do something we used to do together (cuddle in the mornings in my bed, eat, play, read, watch TV, visit people, etc.) Yet, every time I drop her off at W's she does not want to let go of me and runs to me when I pick her up.

I guess I called it a "modified" Plan B because maybe I misunderstood it. I thought Plan B was still a part of trying to make your marriage work. If I go to Plan B now, I'll tell myself, your marriage is over buddy. Move on with your life and if WS ever decides to come back, you are not taking her...

I hate it when I get mad/hurt and make decisions in that state of mind. That's one of the reasons I am going to be around MB for a while. People here are very smart and provide you with a "reality check" and snap you back to the way you should be thinking. But I still don't want her to think that I am going to take her back if she decides to reconcile. Want to tell her that it's over for me, that I don't care about her or our relationship anymore. Any reason why I should not?

I hear you UN. I'd probably disagree with the fact that you don't get the freedom to date... why not? because legally you are still married?

as for trading the problems I am not sure. You can date without getting too emotionally involved. Just go out, have fun, sleep around, etc. I don't really have a need to be emotionally involved w/someone, I just want somebody cool to hang out with, do fun things, have sex, etc. that would be my "heaven on earth". I've always been a man of few words and not the kind who seeks for a lot of emotional support. I usually cope with my emotional problems myself. This one is too much, but I am finding a lot of support on MB, so I would not let that get into a new relationship...

But not having been there myself and not having any experience, it may just be my pre-mature opinion...

guess I called it a "modified" Plan B because maybe I misunderstood it. I thought Plan B was still a part of trying to make your marriage work.
You are not actively trying to make it work cause that ain't gonna happen until the affair is over. But neither are you doing anything to end it or doing anything such as dating or acting single.

If I go to Plan B now, I'll tell myself, your marriage is over buddy. Move on with your life and if WS ever decides to come back, you are not taking her...\
Then why not divorce her?

I hate it when I get mad/hurt and make decisions in that state of mind.
Which is why you sit on it for a few days until you can do it with a clear)er) mind. Get the emotions out of the way.
If you look at most ws, you will see exactly what letting your emotions rule you actions will get you.

But I still don't want her to think that I am going to take her back if she decides to reconcile.
Plan B is not that you WILL reconcile when the affair ends. It is you are open to discussion about it when the affair ends. Nowhere does it say you have to reconcile or you have to divorce.

Want to tell her that it's over for me, that I don't care about her or our relationship anymore.
If that is what you want, tehn do it. But make sure you want it and are not doing it becasue you are hurt and she can't make her mind. If in Plan B you decide you don't want her back, then file. If she decides she wants to reconcile at that time, it won't matter to you. And you won't be doing it for any reason except you don't want to get back together.

Any reason why I should not?
Yeah, a few.
"I keep going back and forth about our relationship."
Also, you are posting here and asking, "Any reason why I should not?" If you're not sure, then you're not sure. Wait until you ARE sure.

so, I think I've made up my mind and am going to move on to Plan B. A couple of questions though. As all of you probably know, she is in London visiting her "loves". Should I email the Plan B/NC letter to her so she gets it in London or wait until she's back. If email now, it may have two effects:
1. she'll be happy to know that I am out of the picture and will have a ton of fun and it will justify her decision to separate/divorce
2. she'll get very upset and it will ruin her "vacation"

I'm sure she's gonna want to share her "vacation" memories/experiences once she is back. I don't want to hear, but can me going to NC, therefore not caring about her vacation, be a LB? Should I wait until she comes back and I had a chance to see whether or not the "vacation" has changed her state of mind? She has not contacted me yet, but it's only been 2 days. She'll be back on the 24th of Jan.