it's to be expected that many here might be philosophically be apposed to this idea, however, if we chose to be objective, we must admitt that in some cases, this is a viable stradegy.

after all people, let's not forget what we're dealing with. while our cheating spouse is out there in the foggy groggy land, total honesty and committment, (while they always should remain the ideal), may not be the most effective approach to dealing with them.

add to that, that apposing this idea on the basis that it's what it is, a stradegy and there fore dishonest, is not clear thinking. after all, what is plan A & B other then just that?

sorry gang, but doing the marriage saving thing is different then doing the marriage building thing...and sometimes requires actions on our part that while, they may not be ideal, shouldn't damned out of hand. i for one applaud some thinking "outside the box" on this issue. i think we should be looking at and debating all ideas that help to break up affairs.

coach

"however, if we chose to be objective, we must admitt that in some cases, this is a viable stradegy. "

So is WAT's match idea. Any takers?

-ol' 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OK, coach, I'll debate with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by coach3530:
<strong>after all people, let's not forget what we're dealing with. while our cheating spouse is out there in the foggy groggy land, total honesty and committment, (while they always should remain the ideal), may not be the most effective approach to dealing with them.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what exactly do you mean by "dealing with them"?

Let's nail down some assumptions. I'll assume we're talking about a WS in a romantic affair that has been discovered by the BS and is either denied or flaunted by the WS.

If you believe a BS can compel a WS in that situation to relent, then just say so and I'll stop debating right now. We would have to agree to disagree.

Let's also assume that the BS has revealed the affair to the WS's family AND has informed the OP's spouse. Despite this, the affair proceeds unabated.

So far, these actions are Affair 101 and are entirely consistent with MB, Divorce Busting, and most other approaches I know of - except of course Glenn's source, Mr. McDonald.

My belief is, given these assumptions, that the BS has done all he/she should do (other than identify and fix his/her contributions to the poor marital environment that fostered affair-prone weaknesses). Any further efforts to end the affair by direct intervention may work, but just as likely will worsen the situation. This includes efforts to invoke jealousy by BS dating. Yep, the jealousy ploy may awaken the WS. But how do you know it won't backfire and give the WS further justification for what they're doing?

WS: Who was that woman I saw you with last night?

BS: Oh, just a date.

WS: (OK, I may as well go get laid!)

My point is - BSs usually have NO IDEA what's going on in the heads of WSs! Heck, WSs don't know! Actions to intervene have unpredictable consequences. The only safe assumption is that all WS logic and rational thinking have vanished.

Another popular recommedation by misguided counselors is for the BS to file for divorce - to "wake up" the WS. Yep, this might work, too. But why file for divorce if you don't want one? Hmmm - I think I'll slash my wrist because I don't want to die. Pretty stupid, huh?

So, total honesty, integrity, and standing squarely atop the moral high ground is THE SAFEST BET!! This is the BS's safe mode. Anything else is a gamble.

During the height of her affair, my WS actually had a session with Steve H. and he and I got her to read "His Needs/Her Needs" with hopes that it would have an impact. She used it to further justify her undying love for OM. "He's meeting all my needs!"

Go ahead, make my day.

WAT

WAT:

I hadn't heard the part about HNHN and the session with SH.

Just shows 2 go you that you can't educate them, huh?

I tried reading sections of HNHN 2 my FWW just a month or 2 after D-day. Went over like a turd in a cesspool. Didn't matter a hill of beans whether she agreed with some of it or not. 2 HER, none of it was relevant 2 our M or her "friendship" with Rat Meat.

Time, Glenn. Time, and working on bettering yourself. Focus on what you want in a W (preferably the one that left you). Try 2 improve on those qualities in YOURSELF. You can't change her, but you can (and perhaps should) change yourself. We all can use a little improvement.

best,
-ol' 2long

In many cases, the BS is left with quite a bit of damage to th'ol self esteem/confidence.

What about 'dating' (no sex) as in dating, (not plutonic friendship either) as in going out on a normal kind of date once in a while? Not neccesarily with the same person regularily, not getting into a relationship, not falling in love, and certainly not leading another person on... but going out and relearning how to simply have a pleasant evening with a member of the opposite sex?

Maybe this question doesn't belong in this thread, because I'm not talking about a method for bringing the WS back, but a way of feeling better about yourself... a reminder that you are indeed capable of being desirable company?

Once confidence returns to the WS doesn't that help reduce the neediness and present a more well adjusted, attractive package?

Just for the sake of argument...

Glenn.
Guys what are Plan A and Plan B and in which book do I find it?
They are in "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. WIllard Harley. IT is available her eat this web site and also, amazon.com. Also, it is at Barnes & Noble, Borders and most bookstores I have seen.

coach,
apposing this idea on the basis that it's what it is, a stradegy and there fore dishonest, is not clear thinking.
A strategy is simply a plan to achieve a goal.

after all, what is plan A & B other then just that?
They are strategies to help get through a spouse having an affair. There is no dishonesty in using them. In fact, honesty is the key to using them properly.

Hi group:

old IP here with a somewhat different opinion- as usual. Listen up: I agree with the McDonald guy (to a certain extent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )...

#1 Rule:
Show the WS what they might loose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

In a life crisis always look your best.
Wear the little black dress to go shopping at Costco (true and tried, worked - check <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

Buy waterproof mascara (no kiddin' -where you ever wondering why tears look more dramatic on TV - no black smudges, duh!)

Do your hair.

Be proud and self-confident (I know that's asking something almost impossible from a BS, but it sure works). My modified Plan A included showing H that I was strong, proud and such a catch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think it is true that a WS finds the confident, sexy, well-dressed BS more attractive than a clingy, whining, begging mess (what I have been at times, too...hey: nobody is perfect). I loved Lupolady's doorbell idea.

My motto: if you have to fight, then fight with all means fair and unfair.

I would not really "date" another guy, but I would be mysterious...go out with a group of friends, go out with your single girlfriend. Have a picture lying around that shows you and a handsome stranger toasting with your friends.

Let's admit it: we all know from our teenage days to make that boyfriend jealous...remember?

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Iceprincess ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">originally posted by ark:

Imagine the backlash of your actions...
you want her not to lie so you lie to her...
you want her not to be intimate physically emotionally real or pretend...so you do the exact thing you don't want her to do...

it is irrational...

this guy doesn't fix marriages...
he plays tit-for-tat and so in the end the two seperated people can come back together and be equal in the shadow of disrepecting marriage, others, and eachother...

He gives eveyone an out from living up to the expectations of a real marriage and trial of one...

married people can not date
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That pretty well sums it up. I do know a couple who employed this strategy. You know what happened a year or so later? Things got rough and one of them started DATING AGAIN to "show" the other.

Arggghhh.

Anybody can claim great success with anything-if he is lying, how are you going to know? Has someone else, who does not have a personal investment in his method, examined these clients to see if they are in fact still together and for how long? One method that is frequently used by treatment programs of all kinds to inflate success figures is to use the "of all the people who faithfully followed this method" formulation. It sounds fair, but it allows the claimer not to count failures by claiming they did not follow the method exactly (while not looking at how exactly the successes followed the method, or not looking at what the failures to follow the method say about how feasible it is to follow).

Originally posted by GlenninSantaFe:
He reccomends dating to get the other person to decide whether to come back or to continue with their affair. The book says basically get on with life do not show sorrow and pain. Cheating spouses are driven away by the pressure of love, clinginess and pain by their spouses.

Know what ... I think this fella's premise is incorrect.

"driven away by the pressure of love"

.... this does NOT explain why they seek "love" with somone else!

And when the WS is a woman .... I think MOST OF THE TIME she is seeking an affair because she feels neglected by her husband, who may have been too wrapped up in his work, his hobies etc. to spend time with his wife.

"decide whether to come back or to CONTINUE WITH THEIR AFFAIR"

.... So if you take a female cheater who feels neglected by her husband and she feels taken for granted .... and she sees her husband happily dating another woman .... she will likely think this:

"I was RIGHT! He doesn't care about me."

..... and thus the outcome will be one of the choices.... CONTINUE THE AFFAIR .... because she is convinced her husband does not care, she was right to leave him.

"Do not show sorrow or pain."

.... As in ... "losing this woman, my wife, does not bother me. I am happier without her."

I think this advice might bring about a FASTER resolution .... and that might be a plan for people who lack patience, perserverence and faith in themselves.

This is a plan to show your spouse you really don't care.

Pep

I think it is perfectly fine to "date"--

especially if: your WS has told you that he/she will not be coming back to the marriage.

And/or if: you (BS) have made it perfectly clear that you want to save the M but the WS refuses to make a choice regarding their direction in life.

However, proceed cautiously: once you put yourself out there, there may be no turning back.

~Marie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ohmy_marie:
<strong> I think it is perfectly fine to "date"--

especially if: your WS has told you that he/she will not be coming back to the marriage.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Marie,

I just have one question:

Is the BS who is "dating" still M'd to the WS?
How could dating under those circumstances be acceptable?

OK, TWO questions:
And while in the throes of an A, don't the WS always say they "aren't coming back to the M", only to (sometimes) change their minds months/years down the line?

My thoughts are not so much date someone else, but show that you can move on without the WS. Dating I think would cause more harm than good. But I have heard a lot of therapists and councelors say that if you show the strength but don't turn your back on them completely , they will come back in most cases.

On Thursday, on his radio show, Harley had a call from a guy who had seen his wife 3 times in the past year, she had been having an affair but the guy had moved, and she had suggested he got out. He told her he had, he had her call a woman, and lo and behold now she is interested in him.

This guy had called the radio show before, and Harley told him that this is a strategy that single people often use to get a person interested in them, but he doesn't recommend it because the person can end up having an affair. However, in this guy's case, it was working. He wasn't interested in the other women he was dating, and his wife was now interested!

....and what of HIS other woman? An appliance?

ooooh WAT...

if she does dishes AND mops floors...
I'll take two !!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

to all but mostly wat,
LOL, LOL wat you made my case...er...debate (does one make a debate, LOL)! your point taken particularly concerning your efforts with your W. and how she read THE TEXT (the MB bible if you will) and then made the determination (in her foggy litttle head) that since the OM was meeting all her EMs, then it was Ok to discard good old faithful wat! hummm what's wrong with this scene?

look, if it hasn't occured to any one else around here it CONSTANTLY occurs to me that folks around here tend be just tooooo dogmatic...

is the issue finding a way to destroy the affair and save the marriage or is the issue finding a way to destroy and save the marriage...BUT...only if we do it ONE WAY....save the marriage YES! but to hell with it if someone gets a bit inventive or down and dirty in persuite of their goal. then scrap the whole thing and play the role of the poor but honest victim. well guess what? some people don't chose to be victims so sue me!

sorrry wat, continuing to do the same thing....over and over....and expecting a different result just don't make sense.

coach

OK, so what was your counterpoint?

but to hell with it if someone gets a bit inventive or down and dirty in persuite of their goal. then scrap the whole thing and play the role of the poor but honest victim. well guess what? some people don't chose to be victims so sue me!

inventive, creative, down and dirty even...perhaps...

disrepecting your own vows given to man and God to win a spouse back...

not worth the price...

doesn't make one a victim...not to do those things...
infact I think it's admirable...

there's even a definite difference in creating the illusion of moving on..without the expense of others...

the original posting is about dating when married with the goal being to "get" a WS back...
doesn't even make sense when the core of the marriage lacks great understanding of the value of it's own foundation...
truth and honesty....

ark

<small>[ January 25, 2004, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Dear Lupolady--

I tend to think of a WS who is NOT INTERESTED in ending the affair (and who will continue in the A and possibly "milk" the marriage) as the party who has LEFT (one foot out the door)...

... In this type of situation, I do NOT think it is necessary for the BS to first obtain a divorce before beginning to tentatively "date" (especially if the BS does NOT want a divorce at the present time).

... I DO think it is perfectly acceptable for a man or woman in this situation to meet parties of the opposite sex for dinner/drinks/entertainment. I AM condoning moving on with life-- and not putting oneself in the position of pining away and endlessly waiting for a WS who may NEVER return. I am NOT condoning a sexual relationship outside of marriage-- however, I see nothing wrong with seeking enjoyment, comfort, and companionship.

I realize my opinion is most likely NOT the popular opinion. I'm OK with that-- and am not asking for anyone to agree with me or back me up.

I've already stated that there is a real risk involved with this "strategy"-- and that once one decides to embark on this journey, there may be no turning back.

~Marie