Thanks, Ark,

I don't expect him to understand anyone's feelings -- not even his own. He is heavily armored, and doesn't see he's done anything "wrong."

Frankly, I feel like he's gone over to the dark side, and it's always dangerous negotiating with that. (Mortarman, he reminds me of the guy in Perelandra ... Weston, was it?)

Anything I say -- anything -- will be used as cement for H in his flakey relationship with OW. They need it. The thing looks pretty spooky. I don't want to be the thing they talk about for bonding anymore.

Maybe I'm just sore that there's no way out of this. If I'm professional and businesslike, I reinforce his sense that nothing big has happened. He's just changing the fanny in his bed. (Actually, given her long absences, he's actually embracing a life of solitude till he starts another A.) So maybe I'm trying to get through to him that this isn't business, as usual. But by doing that, he'll just portray me as a hysterical loser. Another emotional woman he has to deal with.

I just see this all as one big energy loss for me, any way I look at it.

Or.... you could look your attorney in the eye and say, "Nope."

It's a fight I've had with my attorney. I had a great deal more to lose than you did, but she finally came around and has started to work with me to find ways NOT to have contact with WP.

Explain calmly that contact with your WH will escalate things. That you understand the concern, but you've retained the attorney for the express purpose of not having to deal with you WH directly, and you expect that to happen or you'll find another attorney -- without malice to your current one; you just need someone who can provide the services you're looking for.

Attorneys are NOT used to dealing with this approach and your attorney will probably sputter a lot if you try it.

I'd be happy to help you, if you'd like; I've been in plenty of attorney conferences at this point and they're all generally similar.

Just J, He's not saying that I HAVE to talk to H, he's just saying the legal costs will start skyrocketing if he has to be the middleman for all communication. This is kind of self-evident.

While I hate to talk to H, I also hate to spend money. The latter concern wins, at this point in my life.

However, I was wondering in bed last night whether there really has to be THAT much communication. While the attorney says it will be better if we can talk, I wonder how much we really have to. But I still have to think about how to present myself in this situation -- it's tempting to treat it like "just business," but that suits his agenda perfectly. While I shouldn't care at this point, I just don't want to play his game anymore.

AMM,,

What sort of communicatiosn can you see that the two of you have to make? Figure that out, take the lead on those and make sure the conversations are succinct and then get out of there. It doesnt have to be a battle. And your gladiator is right, you can do most of this on your own. Just be business like, and get out of his presence quickly. And then document, document, document!

And I believe Ark made a good point...what is it you want?? Once we know that, then the process will be a whole lot easier. You not want the divorce? Then dotn do it. Drag it out. Dont respond. Hard to have irreconciable differences when one party still thinks you can reconcile.

Anyway, what is it you want? How do you want this to go? What is your main plan? what if that doesnt work, what will you then do?

In His arms.

Hmmm. I'm not seeing a whole lot of need for communication. Settlement conferences often take about four hours and do not have to include the parties being in the same room.

And what I AM seeing an attorney who wants to take advantage of your desire not to spend money -- and thus not do the necessary leg work.

I'd stay out of contact. Attorneys notify one another of being retained all the time. Your attorney might have to lift a few fingers and do some work (as opposed to just chatting with you, which is easy). BuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuMER.

Just J, I really like this attorney and I think he is being straight with me. I did interview him before I retained him and was impressed with his willingness to offer free help before I'd given him a dime. Until I get more evidence otherwise, I'm going to go with what he says. But he's just starting, hasn't spoken with H yet, and who knows what's going to happen. It's very likely H won't get an attorney.

Mortarman: OK, some soul-searching. I really do think this one is from the heart of darkness. How would you deal with Weston? If there's any chance he could snap out of this, I would like to help him. He's making disastrous decisions. But there's a momentum to his decision-making; I'm not sure anything can reverse it.

So what do I want? I want to push a remote and have him disappear, and all this disappear. But it's not going to happen. I don't want to project a "business as usual" stance -- but I don't want to snipe, either. I just don't know what's going to happen. I don't want to spend money.

Maybe I should just follow my own advice: act as if you are working with a psychiatric patient, and don't expect reason.

AMM,

Something that I learned recently. Satan does a remarkably evil thing to Believers. He puts in their minds DOUBT. What if you do this, what if you miss that?

The Word clearly spells out that by faith you walk. When reason, Biblical teachings, prayer etc still dont give you the answer to "Which way do I go," then you pray to God "Lord, I am not sure the right path. You know I have prayed and searched for Your will. I wish I knew more but I do not. So, I am stepping forward in this direction on faith in You, that You will put obstacles in my way if it is the wrong way and help shine the light on the correct path."

AMM, this is one of those moments. No clear answer. So, make th best decision possible, pray this prayer to Him, step forward. Then watch and listen.

If you are going the wrong way, it will be amazing how fast things start falling in your path. if your eyes are open, you will only recognize these obstcles as the answer to your prayers.

Sometimes, doing the right thing first means doign a whole lot of wrong things...in order to find the right answer.

Trust Him!

In His arms.

Thanks, Mortarman. Will do.

Still not sure what "stance" to take -- but maybe cool and businesslike is the only thing possible under the circumstances. Even if it does play into his hands.

Mortarman, I guess I feel like you do. Plan B has successfully put all my emotions in a box and deep-sixed them. I don't know what's in the box anymore, but I definitely do NOT want it opened again. There's little point. But speaking to him may open the box, to no purpose.

Had a dream last night -- he'd actually seen what he'd done through the eyes of conscience. Fat chance.

ms. martin

I am a little concerned and confused about some things you are feeling and saying...

Anything I say -- anything -- will be used as cement for H in his flakey relationship with OW. They need it. The thing looks pretty spooky. I don't want to be the thing they talk about for bonding anymore

Isn't this pretty much standard MO for those whose affairs aren't based on much of the real stuff...and the rockier the foundation the easier it is to focus and ruminate on the outside forces...expecially the betrayed spouse/spouses...

NO matter what your approach...no matter what emotion they will suck it up like fodder...because as long as they can talk about you...then they don't have to talk about the real issues (and lack there of ) between them...

And their talk and focus on you and your actions and emotions...is uselees and wasted...So I am surprised to find that YOU give an ounce of concern over how they perceive you...

Think about it this way..even if you came to him her them one day as the most out of control sea hag....it wouldn't change the fact their foundation is built on nothing...so though you behavior may get them through another day of ignoring the sinking ship....it's still going down...and even if it doesn't go down...it lacks way to much to be of value..

Everyone has always congratulated me on being able to handle myself with dignity. Partly, I suspect, it was because there was a lot of written communication, and later a very solid Plan B. I'm not sure I can avoid being snide and caustic if I have to actually talk to him again.

lets break this down..
sometimes one is still handling things with dignity even when being emotional and even when saying things that are true...
and even when we don't want to hear the truth and what WS wants to hear it...it doesn't make it an LB...and at this point...what does it matter if your LB...

So i don't care what your friends think..for your own health and your own sense of saying what you feel you need to say..then perhaps ms. martin you are going to need to say some not so nice things...too feel better about this...

and like I said before...I am less concerned with what you say...and more concerned about what you expect in response...
because if you expect nothing...that perhaps is the best approach....

Mortarman, I guess I feel like you do. Plan B has successfully put all my emotions in a box and deep-sixed them. I don't know what's in the box anymore, but I definitely do NOT want it opened again. There's little point. But speaking to him may open the box, to no purpose.

this is what scares me...
I'm not sure without taking out some of those emotions and feeling them and moving past them that keeping them in, is the answer...

I'm scared that you have handled this with such grace and dignity that your friends and even I here have forgotten to ask how YOU are...ms. martin...the you inside of you that is hurting from this...

that I read about the social encounters...and the emails and things...and admired you so very much...but never did I ask how you are deep inside of this...
and maybe your friends forgot to ask..
and maybe you believe everyone just expected that you would handle all of this...

and when did we say process the feeling behind this or that?....
Or how are YOU doing ?

this is deep and I may be way off...but there are flags in this post that make me say...
whoa slow down wait a minute..

that perhaps I jumped the gun in believing where you are in processing this...

We placed a heavy burden on your shoulders...deal with your husband whom you did/do love on many different levels...deal with his affair....OW and crazy OW daughterinyourface....
and did I ask enough about how you were holding up..or did I just cheer you on... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
gogogogogogogogogogogo

What's the worse that could happen if you unloaded your biggest weapon in your artillery..
what's the best that could happen...

You should not be afraid to speak your peace...and I'm not talking closure...because I'm not convinced there is such a thing...
but there is always speaking ones peace..

ark

Well, Ark, quite a post.

First an update: H is telling mutual friends he will be married in June. Divorce won't be final till late July, at the earliest. Go figure. Maybe he can't count.

OW is now returning in March, not April. Friend told me H has a discreetly nude image of OW as screensaver. Turned her stomach! Mine too!

Ark, I haven't gone through all the normal stuff about this. I haven't cried. I don't feel jealous of pathetic OW. I haven't heaved epithets at him -- at least not since he moved out.

For reasons I can't get into here, I feel I've watched the self-destruction of a man I loved very deeply. The affair was a symptom, not a cause -- at one point he knew that, too. I've been married to what is called in literature "the damned man," a man who said that every day he wished he were dead (a depressive, as I said). Now I wish he were dead, too. That makes two of us. Not very charitable, but it's part of my wish that I could just push a remote and have this all go away. Failing that, push the remote and have ME disappear. A year ago, during these months, I experienced a horror deeper than anything I have experienced in my life.

Now life has gone on. Those feelings have faded, and they've been replaced by more trivial ones -- resentment, anger, irritation. I don't feel like expressing them, because they will not do justice to either my love or the horror I once felt.

Nothing will get through to him. Except maybe OW, who will have the power to alleviate his deep self-loathing for awhile before this explodes. I learned a year ago that way deep down behind the armor, there is something very vulnerable that is being smothered -- but my ability to get through to it is unreliable; my wish to get to it is questionable. What would be the point?

So that leaves me back with dealing with him, and his wish to appear like we are pals. Alternating with his wish to deal with me as if he is a robot, with his mechanical emails.

Everyone at this point is trying to normalize the H/OW relationship -- "true love," "one of those things" -- but I'm hearing rumors around town of OW's odd behavior, and her behavior in public towards me has already been documented. This will have to play out.

I behaved with grace and dignity in part because I wished to draw attention to the fact that he needed help beyond what I could give. It didn't work.

I've tried to keep to -- who was it way back when on MB? -- the advice of someone who told me "don't say what you don't mean." So when asked, I tell people what I think. This is damaging my own reputation -- I will become the bitter ex-wife, like Wife #1.

So, Ark, you are right. This is an image thing at this point. The kernel is gone; the husk remains.

<small>[ February 28, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Confused email from H. At least, I read confusion, though it's exterior is calm and detached. I think the entrance of the gladiator has thrown him. I left another reassuring message that I am not trying to escalate. I don't even like hearing his voice on the answerphone.

Ms. Martin...

I really do want to help you with this..but I have such a poor handle on where you are at with this....

Why did you leave a message to re-assure him??

why why why

Why are you so focused on him..
and what is this doing to you...?

Don't confuse with speaking your peace too lowering yourself or selling yourself or anything else he or anyone else may label it...

why this intense need to hold on to control...
and whom are you serving by doing that...

ark

I left a message because attorney wants me to.

In fact, attorney wants us to be able to have a conversation like normal people. I'm not up to that, so I left a message with nothing on it that will make me legally culpable.

The reassurance is that I'm not trying to club him with an attorney -- just trying to make sure it is all businesslike.

I wish I could talk to you, Ark, we're obviously not "getting" each other. I'm not aware of "holding on to control" or whatever -- just keenly aware that I won't be heard by the other parties on this one. For the most part, I won't even be heard by my friends.

I spoke my peace, so to speak, and all he could think about was the stuff he wanted to get out of the house. That's not communication, so what would be the point?

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

I'm trying really really hard to have a light bulb moment here..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

and I think I see a glimmer..

hubby, lawyer, even friends all think that you should be at the point where you two can sit down and discuss divorce proceedings and all of this as if this is all a good and natural thing...

as in hubby says to you...
whoooo hooo us together was such a bad thing...what a relief that's over for the good of all of us...
when really you and him weren't such a bad thing..that is until he decides to fling so far out of control he knows not how to pull himself back...and suddenly he re-writes history to make it all so bad...and you are just dragged into the anals of it all....

and friends think that you should be glad that he is making this move...and let those two do what they want...

and no one is saying to you ms. martin that this really sucks...and it must really hurt to lose the person that you believed in so much enough to marry and share your life....but oh well deal with the one in front of you now...and turning this all around as if YOU are the "abnormal" one...the he is now normal

AND your problem is that THAT guy...the one you married is so far gone and removed from the one you see today......and you don't and want to even pretend that this is OKIE DOKIE>....

and your expending emotion on him (ranting speaking your peace) is a lost cause because he is sooo lost to being close to be able to see the real "you"...the real you he married....and will twist it into something it is definitely not...

but contacting him forces you to acquiesce as if it is all OK..because your lawyer is telling you must...etc...
and YOU my friend have no desire to deal at all with this alien once husband being in front of you....
and have no way to process this with him because him that is worth the process is missing in action right...

BY GEORGE I THINK I'VE GOT IT....
TELL ME IF I AM EVEN CLOSE...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
whew I'm tired of thinking it...you must be exhausted.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

ark

Yeah. That's it. I thought it was kind of obvious.

And actually, Ark, I can see the attorney's point. If he has to be the middleman for every little bit of info, the costs will skyrocket. If H gets nervous, he could go out and get big-deal attorney of his own and conflict and costs will escalate, etc. The attorney is adhering to my wish to keep costs down.

But still, it is just as you say, and I don't know what stance to take. I can be snide, and am tempted to. But then he'll commisserate with OW about how snide I am -- you are right; who cares? However, I don't want to fuel the A particularly. I don't see how that helps me. And calm and rational as he is, he doesn't mind calmly sticking the stiletto in, I'm sure he could drop hints about how much happier he is with OW, whatever the questionable reality is. I just don't want to play with the poo-poo anymore.

So...how do I position myself in the middle of all this? One thought is to agree with him about everything -- how icky the marriage was, how wonderful OW is -- as if I were dealing with a mental patient who has to be soothed. He'll know my concurrence is not sincere, and it helps save me from reinvolving myself in a no-win situation. It's hard to argue with someone who is agreeing with you, after all.

Hi AM,
You say that the entrance of the gladiator threw him. OF COURSE you would have a lawyer. You don't have to reassure H...both sides of a divorce have lawyers, it is expected and reasonable.

My H & I didn't get too far into the divorce process, but for property, finances, kid's custody & visitation we both drew up our lists of what we wanted, we swapped lists and compared, took a little time to think then negociated.

You don't necessarily have to have a million little meetings, compile nearly everything and have one meeting.

If your H slips into emotional discourse of how bad things were/great things are, I don't think you need to agree or disagree--ask him to stay on topic or re-direct back to the concrete issues or reasons that that specific conversation needs to take place.

I think placating him or agreeing with him is unnecessary. He is now the adversary and you can treat him as such, just choose your words and actions carefully so they don't bite you.

His opinion that you may be snide is something you can't control.

AM, you wish he was dead and say both of them appear mentally ill...he can't control that you told us that, either. And, you have far more true reasons to speak negatively than he does. He's behaved badly, you've not.

Words, feelings sometimes fly out unrestrained and become a done deal.

She doesn't care if you are snide, or nice.
She doesn't care about you period, except that making you look bad might make them look less like a mentally ill homewreckers.

AM, the kernel of you is still there, I believe the husk has grown thick and protective as you need it to be right now.

When you are in the valley of the shadow of death, the object is to get through, then you will be out.

Thinking of you,

Yeah. That's it. I thought it was kind of obvious.

Well see I am as dumb as I look... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Well what if...just what if.... what if...

You were to say to him...

Look I'm gonna say this once only...

that I believe somewhere inside of you ...is the YOU I married...

AND
that I am not exactly clear as to what happened to him
where he went
and IF he is ever coming back.

BUT he is really the only one I am interested in...and am concerned about...

BUT since the only one I ever see anymore is the one who believes this divorce and these choices are all hunky dorie...(ms. Martin would you ever really use the words hunkie dorie...or okie dokie... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
the this is who I will deal and interact with...

Know that if YOU the YOU I married ever wants to talk...that would be great..

blah blah blah....

something like that...I'm not going to keep going unless its a path you would want to go down...

ARK

Already said all this in my PBL. More protestations just don't "feel" right to me at this point. I've really been a carpet too long in this relationship. I can't remember loving this man, although as Mortarman said, until his wife came back, he couldn't recall it, either.

Weirdly, after talking to my attorney, we checked off the little box on the response that said that reconciliation was possible. That's already more than I feel, at this point. And that move will probably blow him away.

But I'm still going to have to deal with him during the D process, and I'm just unsure what to do.

So, whaddya say, Ark? Or anyone? I'm likely to take the calm, reassuring, soothing, psychiatric-nurse stance. Can't see what else to do. "Of course, dear, I'm sure it will all be swell once you marry OW." "Oh I understand, dear, our marriage must have been awful for you..." Opposing is just going to pull out more opposition. He'll know I'm being insincere, but won't be able to break the act.

When we speak at all. If we have to speak at all.

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>