(Sigh) Where do I begin? Well, for all of those out there that don't know me and my W and our situation, I give you a brief summary.

Back in like August/September 2002 I began having an EA with someone that I worked with. The A was mostly based on communication, I listened, she talked, and vice versa. It was like each of us just vented back and forth. I admit that at that point it should have stopped, but I was not aware of what was going on (EN were partially being met by this OW instead of letting my W meet these EN's). Eventually, as most A's do, some physical betrayal (to my W) happened as well. I think back and shake my head in disguist of myself. I think about how stupid I was and how easy it is to see what is going on and stop anything before it could ever happen, but this is now and that was then. And, like they say, hind sight is always 20/20. I have learned a great deal about myself, through reading, therapy, talking with W, pastors, etc. I know my W feels that I work on things just long enough to get back into the house. That is not at all my intention. I have the best, most sincere intentions anyone can have.

I have been trying to get to know my W again, and kind of for the first time on a completely level. I have known her, but not as well as I should have or could have. I am realizing that and have been trying to plug myself into her life.

She hurts a lot and I know that and understand that and I want to help, but it seems that she doesn't want my help. It seems like lately I keep trying and we get one step forward and then fall back 3 steps. I have read other posts and found them to be somewhat helpful, but none really help me with what I need help with the most.

Here's basically where we're at:
(covering the interaction/emotional side of things)
Christmas Day-I had not done a very good job choosing gifts that were fitting for my W. She was very upset by this and we had a 'discussion' about it. I understand that she was upset, that if I really knew her, then some of the things that I got for her would have been different (jewelry purchased was a 'designed by me' mother's ring in YELLOW gold, where if I was paying better attention, she doesn't like yellow gold->I should have had them do it in silver because that is what she likes. Well, they don't work with silver, so I had them redo the ring in WHITE gold and there were other improvements-it looks 500% better now. I think it looks great and I admit that the first one was kind of crappy) This has all been fixed since then, but on Christmas Day, the family was in the car to go to W's family gathering and she went in and then our d asked for some gloves so I go to get them and tell W in passing that I will be right back, I go in find some gloves, go out, lock the door, and start walking to the car. But it is not there!! She left without me. I go in to get keys to the other car and she had intentionally taken those too. So I try to call her and she basically doesn't want to talk to me. I sit around until 5 something when she gets back only because I had to go to work at 6. While I was home, I did like 3 loads of laundry completely, cleaned, straightened, etc. If I remember right she even ridiculed me about what I did/didn't do while she was gone. Well, a little part of the time I layed in bed and cried. Not out of self pity, but more out of sadness, hurt (a lot of hurt), and frustration.

The next night I got kicked out of the house. I have been commuting from my parents house (30-40 minutes to the N) since then. I am very fortunate that my W has let me stay there 4-6 nights per week (on average). I am very greatful for the times that she has let me stay there. It means a lot to me and I like that we are given more time to interact and get along. I don't think that she has ever asked me to stay because SHE WANTS me to, though. Surprisingly, we have made love or been intimate about 3 or 4 times since 12/25.

Most of my clothes are in garbage bags at my parents' house, and I try to have 1 or 2 changes of clothes with me in the car, also some work clothes. I do that in case I am lucky enough to be able to stay the night with my family. I wouldn't worry about it, but to go 'grab' some clothes would take 1-1.5 hours.

Like I said before, we begin to make some forward progress and then it is several steps back. Here's another example, so maybe someone can tell me what I am doing wrong:

Last night/yesterday, we had a birthday party for our d. After everyone had left, and our d was put to bed, we were talking a little. I encouraged her to do some working out (I want to help her because she says she wants to lose weight and wants me to help) She didn't want to do too much because it would wake her up and then she'd never be able to sleep. I thought, "ok, that's cool with me." So she did some crunches, then insists I do some too. Ok, cool. Then we relax and she has her head in my lap and I am stroking her hair and I ask her when I finally finish school (done in a few months) what she wanted to go back to school for. So we talk about that for a little while, and we are half-watching the Wings game. Then later, I needed to work on my resume and I am downstairs for awhile and she comes down, like 1.5-2 hours later, and asks what I am doing. So I tell her how I had emailed her, and applied to a job, and was having formatting problems with my resume, but I think I finally figured it out and I will be done soon. She tells me to stay downstairs, sleep on the couch, take the NB down too so I can take care of him. When I tried to further discuss it she threatened to kick me out if I keep talking about it.

Today, at work. I talked to her. After work I brought home some food, neither felt much like cooking. We were getting along fine and then we were talking about something and she kicks me out again. I tried to talk about it more and she says '..I'm not listening..' something like that.

I know there are things that I need to be doing, like reading, workbooks, school homework, finish 2 letters she asked me to write (detailing the A 1-physically, 2-emotionally). I can be doing this and I want to be doing these things. I feel I could be just as productive if I were permitted to live back at home. I am very unorganized with my stuff being half packed and located at both places.

I feel like a stick and everytime she throws me out I feel like I break in half or a piece is broken off. I understand if she doesn't want me there for a moment or something. I also understand if she ASKED me to stay at my parents for the night because ______. What REALLY, REALLY hurts is when she gets angry then just throws me out. "GET OUT!! GET OUT!! GET THE F%$^ OUT" or "GET THE HE77 OUT!!" I can hear it liked it happened a second ago and I am hearing the echo. Yet, I still see her in person and in my mind's eye as the sexy, loving W that I married. I don't dwell on the bad parts.

I know I am not perfect in what I do, I never claim to be. I also know that this is my side of the story and it doesn't give way to her emotions and thoughts. Please keep that in mind when responding.

I am going to stop for now. Please, please, I welcome any and all help, advice, and (constructive) criticism.

Please help give me the strength and encouragement.

Through it all, I still love my W more everyday.

Well wantmy...

the truth is that you do this all the time...

This being you post here about how things aren't going real well for you...

how you aren't getting to far in "recovery"..
how you wish and want things to be different..

and lots of people reply with lots of really good insight and suggestions and questions....

and you disappear...

You are always too busy..
too tired
.(didn't your wife just have a baby...bet she's tired)
working to much to fix the financial stuff...
(which is the easy part)
and
going to school...
studying
resting...

YOU have to change...not just "do"...because there is probably truth that you start to do the work then fade off...
yet your actions speak differently...
your actions make you appear to be someone who can committ to everything else but fixing your marriage..

your job
your schooling
your needs...
all important...all get attention..
working on your marriage...
not so much of a priority if we measure it against your actions....

you want strength and encouragement...and you get it here ...and then you drop of the radar screen..

Untill you do the actions that your wife asks...your words will have little meaning...
even in this post...what sticks out the most?

know there are things that I need to be doing, like reading, workbooks, school homework, finish 2 letters she asked me to write (detailing the A 1-physically, 2-emotionally). I can be doing this and I want to be doing these things. I feel I could be just as productive if I were permitted to live back at home. I am very unorganized with my stuff being half packed and located at both places.

Then do them...
do what SHE NEEDS you to do to feel like you are invested in this relationship...
Your wife does not appear to speak in cryptic tongue...she's pretty clear when she posts here what she wants and desires from you....

you can meet all the needs you BELIEVE she wants you to meet which will get you no-where...
OR
you can meet the needs she WANTS you to meet...

If you don't change in the end you will have your schooling
your job..
and will lose your wife...

You have to soul search and decide if you are really really willing to change and do the work...
it has always been your choice regardless of her actions...

ARK

First of all I note you listed two D-days.

If that is correct it suggests that after the affair was first found out you continued it behind her back and she found out about it a second time.

Is that correct?

If so that explains why your recovery is going slow. Odds are the second D-day happened just as she was willing to try and trust you again.

Its going to take time.

Ark,

I appreciate your brutal honesty. I guess it is accurate about how I do some work and postings and then disappear. I do try to work on other things in the meantime, though.

I really really do want to change, to make things right. I am asking for help on how I go about doing that. I know of some of the things that I should be doing, but I don't manage my time very well.

I have skipped classes and I do the very minimal amount of work for school in order to allow for more time with my family. I have a very hard time going to work or school and then coming 'home' and ignoring everyone so that I can get help online, or read, or do workbooks. I feel like this time is much needed to do these things, but I almost feel selfish for not sharing my time with my family (trying to be a good father and husband). Should I just be doing what is needed regardless if someone else wants or needs some time. I understand that in the end it is to help the marriage but I feel awful not helping to take care of the NB or playing a little while with my d.

Another question: I wonder if it is possible for my W and I to try to work on things instead of LB's flying all over.

I asked her to help me, to support me while I try to get things back on track. I also asked her if it was necessary to go from working on things->to kicking me out. I ask these questions to her and tell you (collectively) this to see if I should be doing something different. Am I jumping into things too quickly? Maybe she is not ready for this yet, if not what can I do?

One more last thought: She tells me I am self-centered and I try to show her how I am totally focused on her and all my thoughts, attention, and love are on her and for her. She says that I don't know her, and so I ask her to share herself with me. I don't always ask the right questions to really get to know her again.

I have a million other thoughts, but I need to unscramble them before posting.

I read a post from Coyote, is she in a different part of recovery? If I'm not mistaken, because WH is still in the fog, she is in an earlier stage than my situation, right?


SDFR, Thank you for reassuring me that it will take a long time. I get a little ahead of myself, wanting the pain to stop for my W and for the rest of our lives together to begin.

And, yes you are correct. I lied to her and told her it was over, and then it continued a while longer behind her back. The she found out again, actually she probably knew all along, but I kept lying about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> not good I know.

Please continue to reply, anyone.

<small>[ February 03, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: wantmypookey ]</small>

wantmy...
I am not trying to be brutal with you...
I am very sorry that neither of you feel very far in recovery...
but here's some things to chew on...

1. YOU said awful things about your wife to the OW which she was privvy too..horrible things...and while I myself have very recently told jazzeygirl that she needs to decide very very soon if she even really wants reconcilliation..then she herself needs to accept what happened in the past happened and you can't change it.....you should also be doing a ton of work...

2. Your OW went blitzo on both of you and dragged you and your wife through all kinds of legal and court stuff...that now appears to be over and you both have the chance to really focus on recovery with her totally out of the picture.....

3. you are the man with a 1000% excuses...it appears jazzey has been asking for some basic things (workbook work) since October...and you still haven't done them...
now you aren't doing them because you don't live at home...
you didn't do them when you did live at home either...so I don't get what the answer could be...

the moon program won't be up and running in the very near future...so I wouldn't suggest you wait for that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am not trying to be tough but if you want this marriage then dammit do the work...
I don't know what else to tell you...
because it has been said to you before....

your words of loving your wife more each day without any action fall on deaf ears...

are you in counseling and if you post back no I can't imagine a good reason as to why not...

help and advice in october to you

more advice

If you both want this to get better then you have to do something to make it better...

ARK

<small>[ February 02, 2004, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

want

Here you go straight from the heart.

You want her back. You want her to forgive. You want to help her heal.

Then take the time and effort to read up on affairs. Then pull a section out that talks about how devastating discovering an affair is....in other words put yourself in her shoes.

Experts on infidelity compare discovering an affair is often the equivalent of being physically raped or having a close loved one to die unexpectedly. Indeed many betrayed spouses suffer post traumatic stress syndrome.

I think once you read up on the pain a betrayed spouse goes thru then you will have a better understanding of what must happen for recovery to occur.

Its going to make you feel like crap to discover just how devastating your affair was....so my question is how will you deal with it?

My suggestion is to share what you discover with her. To tell her you are so sorry for the pain you caused her. And that you realize that a pain this big will take time to recover from.

It will require complete honesty on your part. Lots of patience and some very thick skin. The angry outbursts she has show you just how deep the pain she feels.

If you take an active part in helping her understand what has happened then she might let you take a role in helping her heal. IF she does this is your chance to make amends. Its your chance to show her what you are or aren't made of.

JG...even a WS, even your WS is entitled to their version of things. Your WS has a right to post here, his feelings and his thoughts....let us try to help him. Try to not hijack is thread with such a defensive posture.

WMP...please note that even if we seem harsh...it is not our intention we are just practicing radical honesty...giving you our thoughts on recovery and the benefit of our experience. We have also done this on your wife's thread.

What you are doing isn't good enough and her LBing isn't happening. I said this to you both last time you were posting..YOU HAVE TO STOP THIS!!!

Make a plan and stick to it. We all know how painful it is to be a WS or a BS...we know how much work, sacrifice and determination it takes to recover...but what is the alternative??? Staying in the place you're in now?? That doesn't sound like much fun.

You and JG need to sit down and come up with your JOINT (JG that doesn't mean you dictate a plan) recovery plan...IC for each of you, joint MC, doing questionairres, committing to no LB, committing to MB principles, agreeing to how to handle moments when one of you are down, etc.

You are both intelligent adults, you both love each other, you both love your kids...what better foundation could you ask for????

Dear, dear want-
Sorry everyone is being so tough on you. You sound just like my H. I think it is a male thing. You want to fix the marriage. But you are doing what you think she needs, not what she says she needs.
Also you are like my H as far as Christmas gifts. The whole time we were married, he just could not pick up on the things I like. I am a simple person. I like living plants. He gets me cut flowers. I don't like to go out for Mexican food. He always suggested that. It seems like I am selfish to him, but his actions make me feel like he does not know me at all.
So what you can do is listen to your wife. Her throwing you out, and LB's are not good, but that is her response to not being heard. I know exactly how she feels.
She told you she needs you to work on workbooks and write 2 letters. The women here know that is what she needs. You cannot see it. Trust me, that is what she needs.
Here is a suggestion, since you don't have a lot of time. Stop going to school, stop feeding the kids, don't take a shower, watch TV, or talk to your wife. Spend all your time writing the letters and working on the workbooks. You will find that things get better immediately.

Thank you to all who have helped the both of us. I have a lot that is on my mind and I want to comment to all those who have recently commented on my thread. So, here goes...

Ark,
My W has, on several occasions, called me boring and a loser. I feel that I need to show to her that I am not boring and that I am not a loser and that I can be a fun, interesting person. I feel that if I concentrated 100% on the things my W has asked me to do (which I know would be a good thing) I feel like I would be ignoring some of her immediate needs/wants of communication and interaction. Not to mention time spent with our d and trying to play with her. I understand what I need to be doing, but is it okay then to ignore my whole family in the meantime? I read what BELIEVER wrote and appreciate that angle. It still seems a little unfair if I don't at least try to give some attention to my W and d. My W has even told me that she wants me to be doing nice little thngs for her, like little letters, notes, flowers, emails, etc. I like doing those things for her. Is it cool to keep trying to show her this tye of affection?

My W continues to tell me that my actions are speaking louder than my words. I don't know what more I need to be doing to make my actions line up more with what I say. Unfortunately, she feels that I am not capable of change and I don't think she is willing to view me in any other light than the one I'm in. How do I show her that I am changing for the better?

Now regarding each person's posts:

Ark, I have been working on things. I do not use my not living at 'home' as an excuse for not doing any work. I was merely trying to illustrate that I am very disorganized (which I am working on that) because some of the time I get to stay at 'home' ad usually my books and stuff I need are at my parents' house. I am almost done with the letters she has asked me to write. They are a little choppy, so I want to make them a little smoother before I give them to her.

SDFR, I have done some (not ever enough) reading on A. I am almost done with Torn Asunder, which I have found to be helpful. Thank you for the advice to try even harder to put myself 'in her shoes' so I know what she is feeling and going through.

forevertogether
I welcome anyone to post on my thread, including my W. Thank you for the concern, but sometimes my bias doesn't portray the story completely. I really like your idea to come up with a plan that we both agree on AND sticking to it. I wil talk with my W about that ASAP. Thank you.

Believer,
I have been devoting as much time as possible to these letters and the books and workbooks and the help through MB and I am still talking with a pastor. I agree that I should focus on the letters and ge them done ASAP. Then I can be working on other things. NOT AN EXCUSE, but I almost feel like I am not finishing each task well enough because I am trying something else. I need to finis each one.

I have to cut it off there, but I look forward to more comments from all.

Not to mention time spent with our d and trying to play with her. I understand what I need to be doing, but is it okay then to ignore my whole family in the meantime?

why do you present it so extremely?
It sounds like you are saying FINE I'll do what you want...but don't accuse me of ignoring you and the family??

why the great leaps and bounds...
can't you give it a half an hour a day...
doing the paper work she wants...
get up a half hour earlier..
go to sleep a half hour later..

why does the doing it automatically equal a negative thing...
very sabotaging..
almost passive aggressive...
in your presentation...not necessarrily in your actions...

They are a little choppy, so I want to make them a little smoother before I give them to her.

forget choppy just give them to her....

wantmy really focus on the advice of looking at what needs you are meeting..VS what needs SHE wants you to meet...
big difference...

you ask us what you should do...
yet she is the one you need to ask...
and
you are the one that needs to do what she asks...

and jazzy needs to acknowledge the changes you have made..
and needs to give lots of postive reinforcement...cause I might not bother too change certain things,,,if I never got credit for doing so...

ARK

PS and if you don't mind could you change your username to ARK?

Sure would save me alot of embarrassment in the future! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Okay here is the deal guys.

Tonight in the still of the night I want both you to go outside but to opposite sides of the house where you can't see each other.

In that pitch black night I want you to sit down against the house and imagine that just 5 minutes ago a state trooper showed up at your door to tell your spouse just died in a terrible car wreck.

Think about all that you would have done different...more importantly think about all you will miss out on all that could have been.

Then after enough time, after you've tasted the reality that could have been if a trooper had indeed knocked on your door, go inside meet face to face heart to heart.

You two are luckier than my nieghbor accross the street whom a state trooper showed up last night to tell her the husband of the last 27 years would not be coming home.

SDFR,

I heard about what you did. My W showed me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Maybe you should try to get more sleep before posting.

Ark,
I don't bring these questions up because I feel dragged down to do them. I am eager to help my W and I try to get to a better place. And, I did give her one of the letters tonight before I had (couldn't avoid it tonight) to go to school. I was able to come back to the house after school, which was appreciated on my part.

It's kind of weird but I'm seeing things in a different light. I used to take my W for granted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Now I see and appreciate all kinds of little things, like tonight she made us a little food. It meant a lot to me to be included. I want to devote as much time to this as I can. My W and this family are my #1 most important priority, and will remain there even if we can reconcile things.

To all, please refer to "Just J (looking for)", I put in some good things about when I went to see a pastor today.

Ark,
I took your advice:

"you ask us what you should do...
yet she is the one you need to ask...
and
you are the one that needs to do what she asks..." (I didn't know how to carry the quote over the right way).

I was able to be over there tonight and I asked her if there was anything else I could or should be doing. Anything that she'd like to see me working on.

She told me that the letter I gave her earlier was not complete enough. I told her that I wanted to fill in some spots.

Sleepy...have more things to do...

I have been focusing my efforts doing work on this M and in doing so I have been neglecting doing some of the things around the house. Basically, plugging myself into the family. I thought that the work is something that my W wanted me to be working on, but she has pointed out all the things I don't do. She has also pointed out that I am not doing enough to financially support the family. So...(believer?) the advice to pretty much drop everything and work on the M is not what I need to be doing. I have been spending some time trying to get a better job, but in the meantime I think I am going to have to get another job. Also, I have been doing some (not all) of what is necessary for school. I was told I need to be more responsible about my schooling as well.

If it sounds like I am confused, it is because I am.

Bumped for more input.

Ooops, sorry I lost your thread. Sounds like you are making a good effort, so keep it up. Did you rewrite the letter yet?

You have to understand that your wife is very hurt and angry about the betrayal and deception. So probably she will find fault with things for awhile. That is normal for BS. Hang in there, and keep trying.

If you put the effort in now, you can save your marriage and even have a better one than before Stick with the MB program and we will help you through this.

believer,

Thanks for the continued encouragement. I would like to announce that I was invited to move back HOME !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I keep working on things with a non-ending ferver. My W even pointed out that some of the good changes I ahev seen in her have been due to the work I am doing.

As far as the letters go. I have given myself 1 week to finish rewriting them. I have until Saturday night to be done with them. I just retrieved my belongings that were at my parents' house. I brought it all back home last night.

It may sound weird , but it sounds good to be able to say, "home". I always said that home is where your heart is, but when I was living at my folks' house I never really said "home". I was living there, but my heart was with my W and our children.

I am excited to keep the ball rolling in the right direction. I have the same belief that one day I hope our M is better than it ever was before.

That's very good news. Keep up the good work. I'm sure your wife is very hurt, but with your help she will recover.

And you two ca have a better marriage that ever.