Nellie,

Honestly, I realize we have different perceptions of this issue, but there are some very simple differences that might help you out a bit.

Personal choices make a difference. I realize we all make choices based on our perception - I saw my ex leaving as an opportunity to improve our lives - and to be honest, that is exactly what happened. You saw it as a detriment, and you evidently still feel that way.

I'm sure there's something there about the value of positive thinking - but I'll let you figure it out - I know you have the ability.

Blessings,

Jan

I want to make it clear that I do not blame myself for his affair or the fact that he considered leaving. However, I do believe that there is a significant chance that he would not have left had I avoided confronting him. I would like to encourage others who are in a similar situation to consider carefully the option of "tiptoeing" around the affair, as another poster put it. In my case, it certainly couldn't have been any worse.

If we really believed we had absolutely no control over the actions of others, then there would be no point to Plan A, Plan B, or even practicing interviewing skills, or sales techniques. Almost everytime we open our mouths, whether to present a proposal to our boss, or get our kids to pick up their rooms, we are trying to exert control over someone else's behavior.

MelodyLane,

I am sorry that you had to experience the tragedy of losing your son. There is nothing worse than losing a child. I am sure it would do no good for you to try to blame yourself. What about cases where a parent is responsible, inadvertently - some of these parents have used the tragedy as a springboard to educate others about the dangers of whatever causes the death of their children - such as venetian blind cords, not using seat belts, etc. My situation is not directly comparable, of course, but I would hope that perhaps someone would think twice before doing something that could result in their spouse leaving, when sometimes doing nothing is best.

I am sure my H does feel guilt and shame and that may be a part of why he sees little of the kids - but I think the primary reason he sees so little of his children is the fact that the OW doesn't want them around. Even though my H may have felt some guilt about me, I doubt very much that he could possibly have thought that I would be better off left alone to raise 6 children.

Unfortunately, positive thinking is only useful when it is grounded in reality - in cases where there is no upside, it is merely foolish to pretend that there is. I can not think of a single significant way in which my life or the lives of my kids have improved after my H left - unless you count as significant the fact that I can put the toilet paper roll on any way I want to.

<small>[ February 15, 2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
[QB]
MelodyLane,

I am sorry that you had to experience the tragedy of losing your son. There is nothing worse than losing a child. I am sure it would do no good for you to try to blame yourself. What about cases where a parent is responsible, inadvertently - some of these parents have used the tragedy as a springboard to educate others about the dangers of whatever causes the death of their children - such as venetian blind cords, not using seat belts, etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In those cases where the parents WERE responsible and/or the death could have been prevented, you certainly have a point.

However, that is not the case here. Just as in your case, there was nothing I could have done to prevent his death. Nor was there anything you could have done to prevent your H's leaving. He left for one reason and one reason only: HE WANTED TO. He did not leave against his will.

Had he wanted to stay, he would still be there today regardless of whether or not you exposed him. Maybe if you hadn't confronted him, he would have stayed another week - maybe not. But it's unrealistic, silly and fruitless, to sit around and speculate about what might have been. What if's are a fruitless, silly game played by those who can't accept reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My situation is not directly comparable, of course, but I would hope that perhaps someone would think twice before doing something that could result in their spouse leaving, when sometimes doing nothing is best. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nellie, why would they think twice about doing the right thing? Just because your H chose to leave does not mean that confronting your adulterous spouse is the wrong thing to do. It is always the right thing to do regardless of the outcome. There are no circumstances where it is right or correct [or healthy] to help a spouse hide destructive behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>

Unfortunately, positive thinking is only useful when it is grounded in reality - in cases where there is no upside, it is merely foolish to pretend that there is. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is nothing realistic about persisting in an irrational belief that you somehow forced your H to leave by confronting him. You are ascribing a power to yourself that you simply do not possess. You did not force your H to leave. He left because he wanted to; because he CHOSE to leave. There is nothing positive or negative about stating that fact, it simply is the truth. And its unrealistic to think otherwise.

nellie, I understand your point, and partially agree. In general it is better to have a plan before any kind of serious confrontation in life. And your admonition to consider a spouse may summarily depart, and what the consequences of that action would be, is...... prudent. And one should have a plan. But I have a hard time considering your H was a good role model, I cannot reconcille the myriad of subtle behaviors he must have been broadcasting, as not having consequences as a role model....further, the longer the deception continued, the greater the shock and trauma as the kids realized the lie they lived, not only by their father...but the complicity of their mother as well in the deception. This IMO would be a devastating psychological injury to your kids...just a deferred one. True, maybe your h would have ended that affair, not started another, and somehow the deception made a family secret forever....but ya know nellie, I am not a fan of family secrets, they are a cancer eating away. The problem is you would know, and you could not possibly behave as if you did not know....this would have altered your behavior and injured your children...there are no free rides nellie. Continuing a deception for a short time, can make sense, but as a way of life......no.

On the other hand, his leaveing as he did, has revealed the truth about him, and that truth is there for the kids to understand, no pretense...and that is best. The financial consequences were unfortunate, but such things can be opportunities for bonding as well. Your H behavior is extreme, but has anyone tried to interact with him....not necessarily confront, but get a foot in the door? If in fact he is a pliable man, and the ow has um..... kinda programmed him, why not try to undermine her? Surely he would respond to his kids if they tried wouldn't he? But then, maybe not, if not, he really is unworthy nellie, and they are better off without him, his role modeling, or his influence.

Hi Nellie, it's been a long time. I don't post often, but you caught my eye. There's something about your situation that always makes me take pause.

Maybe it would have saved your family some heartache had you backed off and let the affair "run its course"... none of us will ever know that. Personally, I couldn't hide it once I knew, but I know some who have, and do, and go on in their marriages. An ex-SIL and her H come to mind - They lived with the "Don't ask, Don't tell" mentality (both cheated) - and they're still married. Heck, what do I know?

I do want to discuss this idea of staying positive:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">positive thinking is only useful when it is grounded in reality - in cases where there is no upside, it is merely foolish to pretend that there is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't agree MORE!!

Nellie, I'm sure there are good things in your life that you don't write about here - mine too - but when you want to vent about stuff and share some wisdom you've gotten from your life, you just do it.

For me, I wish I could pull myself up when I feel so weighted down with crap... and at times, I can. But sometimes, if I'm really honest, I just don't want to... I'm tired, I'm broken, and I'm trying the best I can. My guess is that it's how you feel sometimes too. If not, I'm sure you'll tell me so.

Take care Nellie.

I disagree that confronting is always the right thing to do. Thousands of people, probably millions over the centuries, have not done so, and I think in many cases they were better off to have avoided confrontation. I disagree that speculation is useless - would you also say that it is useless to speculate about whether World War II would ever have happened had Germany the victors not inflicted economic disaster on Germany after World War I? Without speculation, how could oneself or others ever learn from mistakes?

I did not "know" that the OW existed at the time of confrontation - I suspected, and his behavior was certainly odd, but I did not actually find out for certain for about a month and a half after that.

I doubt my children will ever say much to him. The younger ones are scared that if they were ever to severely antagonize him, he would not allow them to see him again. But they have asked him numerous times to spend more time with them, to no avail. The oldest want nothing to do with him.

Sheryl,

It's good to hear from you again. I suspect that it might have saved the children a great deal of heartache, not to mention poverty.

Yes, there are certainly good things about my life - mostly my children.

On this board, the advice generally given is to confront, with little discussion of the possible consequences. I think it important to point out the negatives of that approach.

Nellie,

Could you have really lived with the fact that your H was having a affair and you were doing nothing about it? What about the kids? What would that have taught them because eventually the affair would have been discovered by them also. I feel you did the right thing. You taught your kids a valuable lesson abut life and struggling and surviving. You taught them right from wrong and that it isn't right to cheat on your family. I'm sure your kids have the highest respect for you as a mother. You have made so many sacrifices for them and they won't forget it.
I feel it is much better for children to have 1 really good, strong, moral parent then two weak ones. You would have been weak if you would have lived with the affair.
You should be proud of all you have accomplished the past 5 years. I remember your struggle with 5 kids and no money. You went back to school, got a good job ect.

Quit looking back because you can't change what happened.

Jill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could you have really lived with the fact that your H was having a affair and you were doing nothing about it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. It certainly would be no fun, but the alternative proved worse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would that have taught them because eventually the affair would have been discovered by them also.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not at all sure that they would have ever found out about it. His leaving guaranteed that they would find out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You taught them right from wrong and that it isn't right to cheat on your family.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not convinced that this was the lesson they learned. While they certainly learned that I don't believe that it is ok to cheat, they have learned the exact opposite from their father. Obviously everything I have done, going to school, working hard, being faithful - has got me exactly nowhere. They may have seen that hard work can get you a good GPA, but it sure as heck doesn't mean you can earn a living wage.

<small>[ February 16, 2004, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>