</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> one other comment he made just a little while ago during an awake period: "You sure don't act like you want me back."

I told him I truly want nothing more than for us to be together, but that I don't want to share him with someone else, so I'm backing off, giving him space, and working on taking care of me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, this is what I'm saying......

If you are in Plan A, then you should be "all lovey-dovey." It shows him you are serious about wanting to fix your M, and making the changes necessary.

If you just can't do it anymore, then you need to move to Plan B, and write in a PBL all the things you did tell him about backing off.

God Bless,

There is always the bigger picture...
keeping ones eye on the prize...

my concern is that the prize you are going to get in the end...is only a reflection of what you YOU deserve in this life...
and even more importantly what your children deserve...

sooo like water dripping on a stone..
here I go..

I want our marriage so bad, but am I living in fantasy world? Is there even a smidgin of a chance? I feel so tense right now with him here.

I think he will end his affair...
I think he will come home..
I think you will welcome him with open arms..
I think he will play the role of everything will be OK as long as YOU don't bring up the affair...
I think you will accept that....
I think you will accept him and all his behaviors soley on his terms..
all of the affair will become your fault and you will agree to that just to have him in your home...
you will go on enabling him day after day..
six months to a year he will do it all again...

But he will come back again...

Here's some reality and some thoughts about the bigger picture...

1. I don't care if you meet his SF needs...though is this case where he is blatantly flaunting the OW and his new apartment in your face...I question the value he places on SF with you...since he has such a warped sense of Gods gift of human sexuality...in the first place...
and either you share the lack of significance as he does..which is fine if you do..
but IF you don't...then I would ask why would lower your own standards...regardless of his...

I think it will hurt you...
BUT BUT BUT...what does concern me is meeting his SF needs in your home with the children...
OH the confusion and pain that must be ruling their worlds now..
dad moves out and plays house with OW and HER CHILREN....but comes home to lay in bed with mom...
what is that message exactly???

marriage has no meaning...?
vows of have no meaning...?
sex is sex is sex...and as long dad is getting some...even though he doesn't talk to his own children.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
and to them does that look OK..since you let him lay in your bed...

remember bigger global picture...

If you are going to engage in SF with him..please do it at his place...without your children knowing that you are ever there...please..

replied, "She'd have to help pay."
He says, "I can't stand her kids."

The man says to you I can't stand her kids...
No matter how much we want to villify when it serves us well the OP....there lies a great onus of responsibility for the WS....in the actions of an affair...

The BIGGER picture...what your husband is doing to the OP...is one thing...the realities of actions and effects they have on CHILDREN is another thing...YOURS and HERS...
none of the children in this stomach turning mess deserve any of this...

the children are victims of the adults actions...
her children are victims of hers and HIS actions...
your children are victims of HIS and YOUR actions..

YOU can condone that behavior or not...
Do you respect a man that plays with another woman ...and can't stand her kids...does that behavior deserve respect....

I told him I truly want nothing more than for us to be together,

well I think you will what you wish for..
nothing more..in your marriage than you have...

the affair is a problem...
BUT it is not the solution to any of the problems in your marriage...
the ending of the affair...will not FIX anything...
will not make one problem go away...

you are here at marriage builders..
yet you only read and understand what you want to and choose to..

And as usual your main question...
did you do good at avoiding LB's..
yes you did and do...

So..the saga continues.
yes it does....

ARK

Lordslady -

WOW! I really think you should be listening to ARK. Everything he said is right on the money. Your fear of letting your WH go is just that - FEAR! What would you say to your children if they said they let their friend talk them into using drugs or endangering their life some other way just becuase they were AFRAID of losing their friend?

As a mother know that you would tell your child that if that friend was trying to get them to do something harmful to themselves, that that person was indeed not their friend to begin with. Teaching children cannot be "Do what I say, not what I do." It has to be "Do as I do." You must lead by example. As a mother, you must find your strength in your children.

Read what ARK is saying to you! You are blessed to have that in writing where you can read it and re-read it.

No good decisions are made in fear. Not one ever. Find your courage. Courage is not the absence of fear, it is being brave IN SPITE of your fear! You can do this. If you could see your strength as we do, you would know that. Have faith in yourself! You can do this!

Go to the Plan A/B board and read up. Get your letter ready. Read the book "Tough Love." Get him out of your house, out of your bed, and for heaven's sake, go buy yourself a better extra blanket than the one you gave him. I did, and I sleep so good at night now!

Love, Amy

lordslady -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want our marriage so bad, but am I living in fantasy world? Is there even a smidgin of a chance? I feel so tense right now with him here.

I think he will end his affair...
I think he will come home..
I think you will welcome him with open arms..
I think he will play the role of everything will be OK as long as YOU don't bring up the affair...
I think you will accept that....
I think you will accept him and all his behaviors soley on his terms..
all of the affair will become your fault and you will agree to that just to have him in your home...
you will go on enabling him day after day..
six months to a year he will do it all again...

But he will come back again... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with ark also.

I learned about this same cycle with my H in his first M. He repeatedly had A's over a period of 20 years BECAUSE HE COULD! He was never exposed, never held accountable for his actions, never had to leave home...that is until I discovered his A last summer.

Being an alcoholic I think makes this whole thing more complicated. Like you or someone said earlier...two addictions at the same time. But you have to stand firm and you need to stop enabling him with his drinking and the A.

I KNOW IT'S HARD. During the time H and I were seperated (6 weeks) I felt that we would ultimately divorce because H's drinking was so important to him...that HE WAS MORE IMPORTANT than anyone else.

I stood firm during the six weeks and said that I would not even consider MC again with him until he could:

*Be honest about the past.
*Be honest about the present.
*Be honest about the A.
*See an IC to learn why he had multiples A's.
*Read MB material.

He went to IC, which lead to AA, which allowed him to take responsibility for his actions. He is starting to change. I would have never believed it would happen.

I think that had I not stood firm and separated for six weeks, we'd still be stuck in the same old cycle.

You are getting a lot of good advice here. Please review it and use what works for you.

Take care.

sss

Okay, I have to clear one thing up before I say anything else: I DID sleep in the same bed with him last night....but there was NO SF, not even so much as a hug or a kiss. He was already asleep and angry and I was pretty unemotional myself.

He woke this morning still angry about everything. He asked if he had any clean work shirts at my house (he's an auto tech so when they're not clean they're REALLY not clean). I said no, that except for one I found in the kids' laundry that is dirty, they're all at the apartment. I told him he could wear the dirty one. That angered him.

So he huffed and puffed and slammed some drawers trying to find things, and then showered, got dressed and left for work (in the dirty shirt). I did tell him as he was leaving that I love him, that I pray for him, and that I want us back together, but not while the affair is going on. Told him I would love to do the Florida Harley ride he was considering in May, as long as A is OVER. He shot back: "That's impossible! I'm selling my bike." (Uh huh...that Harley is the most important thing in his life...probably even more important than the OW)

He left a message on my cell on his way to work (I had it turned off at the time). It was very snippy and basically said it was sure apparent I wasn't very interested in having him back because I never call him anymore and I don't have any sympathy for his financial situation.

I did call him back and just said again, I'm not calling him because he wanted his space--he has it. Also told him I do understand his concern over his finances but that I can't help him (won't is the real answer) and that I'm sure he'll figure it out himself, just like I've done with our combined finances all these years.

He called again at 9:30; I picked up the phone at work before I saw the caller ID. He said in his cold tone, "I just wondered if you got to work." Answered back in the same tone, "Yes, I was on my way when I called you back this morning." He mumbled he'd talk to me later. So that's where we are...

-------------------------------------
Ark,

I know you would probably love to meet me in person so that you could grab me by shoulders and give me a good shaking up, just to get my attention. I DO read what you write. No, I haven't acted on it like you'd like. I'm slow on things. I have backed off a LOT though from him.

When I think about some of the things you say, I wonder if it means I should just file for D now, and you and everyone reading my posts knows that's not what I want.

However, once in a while when I think about getting back together with him, I find myself getting a little tense because the one good thing about him not being around is that the 'walking on eggshells' feeling is gone. Normally, when he's tired and cranky from work, he's not very patient, and if I say the wrong thing (which comes very naturally for me), then we get into arguments because I don't back down well. Right now, he's not there to argue with. It's MY house.

I'm still really torn by what to do and not do. I'm still relatively new at this...maybe not the A because it started last fall, but to MB, because I only joined this board a few weeks ago.

I know it may not sound like it, because I'm still really confused, but I am functioning better overall than I was when this first started back in the fall. I am eating now (still not gaining weight) and I am concentrating better at work. A lot of nights I don't need my sleeping pill to go to sleep. I feel like I've made a little progress.

Amy Maree,

I WILL be buying myself another blanket! I didn't realize we didn't have any extras until last night. My daughter used to have a pet rat, and when she'd take the blankets in her room, if they got too close to the cage, they came out with holes in them. We cleaned her room a couple weeks ago after the rat passed on, and I threw away a LOT of blankets.

LL

One more thing--I did go out over the weekend to a Christian book store and picked up a copy of Dr. Dobson's "Love Must be Tough". I'm only to chapter 2, but it does look like a good book. Several people, not just on here, have recommended it.

I also have SAA by Dr. Harley, but haven't read past the "ending the affair" part, because we haven't physically gotten past that yet. No need to read about recovery when you're not recovering yet.

Also, H says he's going to quit going to his IC. Says he can't afford it. I think he doesn't like to hear what the IC has to say (IC specializes in substance abuse). I really hope he reconsiders.

Let me say I have no interest in whether or not you or he have SF...that's a personal choice ...
BUT what I have grave concerns about is the MESSAGE YOU are sending to your own children about tolerating intolerable behaviors in your own life...no matter the cost of your own belief system..

that the man that is sleeping in your bed AND is making no efforts to engage with HIS children regardless of their ANGER which they are entitled too and that HE must DEAL with...but like so much in your marriage it is hush hush..pretend it isn't so....

HOw does that look in the eyes of your daughter who will not even talk to her own father because she is so hurt over what he is DOING...and you let him sleep there..
what do YOU think she thinks happened last night...

bigger global picture...

When I think about some of the things you say, I wonder if it means I should just file for D now, and you and everyone reading my posts knows that's not what I want.

Read again for I do not believe that you are close to the point of filing...because you need to do a lot more work...(almost start) at trying to save this thing..

you haven't done much work in saving your marriage...or even more importantly...defining and creating a new marriage....
and if you are waiting for magicaly recovery to begin as you allude to
not doing this or that because you aren't there yet...how do you think you get there??
MOST get there by one spouse begining the real work and process of change....

changing YOU
changing YOUR behavior...

You have set no boundaries that define tolerable vs intolerable behaviors...

power struggling over clean vs dirty work shirts safe and easy...INFACT stuff like probably makes your WS very happy...

Infact if you are in plan a in theory you should have cleaned his work shirts...
but you set boundaries over not doing his laundry...

and then let him spend the night in your house less than a full week of being out...
where are your boundaries about really disrepectful things???????

as long as he can bi### and moan about the lack of clean shirts...and can blame you for that and all else that is ill in his world...then no one has to face the REAL issues....

neither you nor he...

Told him I would love to do the Florida Harley ride he was considering in May, as long as A is OVER.

every day you send him the same message..

I will expose myself and my children to all the crap you choose to dish our way...and I will take you back the second you end your affair...

YOU deserve more in life that what you are asking for...
which does not equal dump and divorce him..

Marriage is what we make it to be it is not an entity that exists out there in the cosmos...
Recovery is what we make it to be also...it too does not exist out there...and come knocking on the door some magical day...

lordslady I wish you no ill...
I know you hurt and are very scared...
but ending the affair is NOT the answer to your marital problems...
you need to change your focus...

ARK

Ark,

I know he's selfish and self-centered. I know he was that way before the A and may be that way for the rest of his life.

I just don't feel like we can work on any of that stuff until the A ends.

You do have me on the "doing his work shirts if we're in plan A". I think since he moved to the apartment, my heart sort of fell out of Plan A. I haven't fought with him, I've tried not to argue, but I haven't been the cuddly, loving wife that Plan A requires. So I guess right now I'm not in any plan, because I'm not in B yet.

And I really blew it at noon--you're going to have a heyday with this:

His rear differential is going out on his truck (the same truck he blew up the power steering in last week, and I'm guessing the same stupid fit of anger did this damage). So, on top of having no money to fix it (and no, I'm not providing...he still has his credit card), he's tearing it apart tonight at the shop and asked (still grumpy) if I could give him a ride.

Kick me...I did say I could take him to his apartment and drop him. He'll have to find a ride back to work.

But it gets better: Then he says, still in his snippy voice "So do you think I could borrow your washer/dryer one night this week?" Before I could even stop my mouth, I said "yes". URGH! He has laundry facilities at the apartment. I'm just so used to saying yes. So if he really does use mine (because remember he has no money), I'm considering having to run errands so that I'm not available, because I'm not doing them for him.

that the man that is sleeping in your bed AND is making no efforts to engage with HIS children regardless of their ANGER which they are entitled too and that HE must DEAL with...but like so much in your marriage it is hush hush..pretend it isn't so....

I do agree with this comment. I don't try to make everything right between him and the kids. I do tell them that regardless what's going on between him and me, he is still their dad. However, that's as far as it goes. I've told him I'm not the one who needs to warm up to them, and it's not my job to make ammends between him and them. He needs to do it himself. I know he knows he's screwed up, and he doesn't like taking responsibility, so he's avoiding the whole situation. Wrong? Yes. Mine to force him to do? No.

I do believe unless some astroid comes and smacks him on the head and things change in the next week or so, that I'll have to be in Plan B. But my problem is figuring out what I want.

Sure, I could go for it all in the letter: N/C with the OW, quit drinking, show respect to me and kids, get counseling, etc., etc. But that's just setting him up to fail. He will not be able to do all that at once. It would have to be a one-step-at-a-time thing, and then you can't change a person's basic personality very much (just like no one can change me to get me not to ramble so much).

Do you see? I'm not even sure what it is I want yet (other than the OW to fall in a deep abyss).

Well you are in luck...
I don't think I'm strong enough to wail the MB padded two by four I want to at you.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I know he's selfish and self-centered. I know he was that way before the A and may be that way for the rest of his life.

This is what you don't get..I am so very uninterested in him and his stuff...you and I can't do anything about him...
he will do what he does...regardless of you

If HE was here posting...believe me...every post from me...would be focused on him and his actions...
but he's not here...
and here you are...
so my posts are to you...

But you remain focused on him
way way way to focused on him...
everything about him...

I know he's selfish and self-centered. I know he was that way before the A and may be that way for the rest of his life.
I just don't feel like we can work on any of that stuff until the A ends.

We can debate that the action of having an affair...are completely selfish and self-centered behaviors...if nothing else...keep accepting these behaviors in your world...you accept the consequance of these actions...meaning the affair...

I do tell them that regardless what's going on between him and me, he is still their dad.

what does that mean...doesn't one have to ACT like a dad to be a dad...
or are you changing the definition of the word DAD to protect him...

because changing definitions is a common slippery slope..usually engaged in by the WS...and those unfortunate BS totally floundering...

you rationalize enough of his poor behaviors and choices...he really must have it easy..

he's always been selfish
he's always been self-centered...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

this is tricky stuff lordslady..but children are powerless in the decisions grown ups make that have humungous effects on their lives..
....and it is here that your actions NEED to speak louder than lip service...

this is where your actions speak volumes about what you are willing to accept and you need to think long and hard about what your actions will teach your children about accepting disreptful behavior in their lives....

Use this as your anchor and focus...

WS says
"can I come over and do my laundry at your house.

with out Lbing...you answer back..
ummm I don't think that is a good idea. I think that it might confuse the children...

that should be your answer...
cause what does the action of him being able to come and use you like a laundry mat while he does nothing to communicate with his own children... say about what you are willing to accept...

He's already saying...clean clothes are more important to me than my son and daughter...
Is that how you feel as well?

and it's not my job to make ammends between him and them.
The message that your husband is sending to your children is a horrible one...
he is teaching your children that it is OK to walk away from comittment...
he is teaching your children that it is OK to get tired of your old family and go out and get a new one...
he is teaching them that they should only want his happiness in life...
and you need to look hard at your own actions in relationship to protecting him...and rationalizing his choices...

and when you set no boundaries on these lessons...you become one participating in his insanity...and your children see that...
they feel it..
and they believe it...because actions define our beliefs...

What you should be telling your husband is not that he can come over and wash his dirty laundry..but that he is welcome to a family dinner on Wednesday...

and that's it...

so he's avoiding the whole situation. Wrong? Yes. Mine to force him to do? No.

No YOU are avoiding the whole situation by making it OK for tired man to sleep in your bed...

who comforts your daughter and son at night?...

I will not back down from my belief that the children are the true victims in this...
and that I expect the ONE adult posting here to reconize that fact...and attempt to navigate these waters with the best intentions of not exposing the children to the grownsup chaos...

you're going to have a heyday with this:

this is no heyday...for me.. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

You are in my prayers....

LL

You need to start being strong for yourself and your children. Really he has his own apartment, that is where is bed is and that is the place he needs to sleep/nap/whatever. He decided to move out, he decided to continue the A. I do agree you need to decide what you want and what you need. First thing you should do is tell him that you've changed your mind about him washing his cloths at "your place". He has made his bed and now he has to lay in it.

Ark is right your children are the ones suffering the most. A father that doesn't care for them at all. Thats a shame. You deserve better and so do they.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He left a message on my cell on his way to work (I had it turned off at the time). It was very snippy and basically said it was sure apparent I wasn't very interested in having him back because I never call him anymore and I don't have any sympathy for his financial situation </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From the sounds of it your H is working up the nerve to ask you to not take money for child support.

I'm sorry if I am coming off harsh. I just don't like seeing someone being treated like your being treated. But, your also allowing it to happen.

I'll keep praying for you also.

Ark,

with out Lbing...you answer back..ummm I don't think that is a good idea. I think that it might confuse the children...

Like I said, big "oops" on my part there. I have to learn to think before speaking. I knew after I said it it was the wrong answer...just didn't know how to take it back without creating bigger issues at that point.

he is teaching your children that it is OK to get tired of your old family and go out and get a new one...

Exactly what his dad did to his mom. I was dating him at the time and remember him crying night after night because they both walked out on him and left him living at 16 in a house by himself until they sold it, because he didn't want to switch schools. Doesn't make it right-but you'd think he'd have learned a lesson.

What you should be telling your husband is not that he can come over and wash his dirty laundry..but that he is welcome to a family dinner on Wednesday...

Does this go along with my being on no plan at this point? I'm SOOOOO confused as to what in the world I should do next.

who comforts your daughter and son at night?...

Wish I could say "Me", but my S is 18 and is VERY smitten with his latest love. They're joined at the hip 99% of the time. The good thing--I do like her and she seems to have her act together. My D is being a rebellious teenage stinker right now. Most of the time she's more intereset in tying up our phone lines until late in the evening. I've tried to do things with her. She thinks I'm "uncool".

Silverthorn,

He decided to move out, he decided to continue the A.

I sort of forced his hand at the first part--he was going to chicken out for fear of lack of funds. I knew he could do it if he'd just live conservatively, so told him to "go sign that lease" because things weren't changing the way they were. True on the 2nd part--he is continuing A with no signs of it stopping, despite all his complaining about her smothering him lately.

You deserve better and so do they.

Meaning????

From the sounds of it your H is working up the nerve to ask you to not take money for child support.

Oh, I think he'd like to ask that, but I believe he's also smart enough to know that if he does, I will file for legal separation and then it'll be deducted from his paychecks by law.

I do appreciate the prayers. Please understand that I'm a terrible decisionmaker, and I do agree that even though I don't feel like my 19 year marriage has been a horrible life, there are things that I've tolerated during those years to try and keep family peace that have impacted who I am and how I'm reacting to this situation.

I start to feel like if I hang in there and do set boundaries, maybe he'll come back and we'll work it out, and then I read things (posts...other articles...) that say to me "You idiot...you are married to a man who is selfish, he's an alcoholic back to drinking, and he's having an A that he didn't break off when you found out. There is no hope of him ever coming back to you. Move on."

I don't want to give up. I want to believe God can work a miracle.

So please be patient with me, and tell me what I do right and wrong. And maybe little by little, I'll do better. At least I'm no longer begging him not to leave me (that was before I joined this board), and I'm not the one initiating calls anymore.

And actually, I don't think I have to drive him anywhere tonight now, because a mutual friend (who is actually sort of stuck in the middle now) stopped by H's shop and has offered to let him come down for dinner or to drive him if he needs a ride (to get me out of the loop).

LL

LL
Hi.. reading your post and I wanted to make an observation. This post is called 'disoriented by his fog'.. but it seems you are in the fog of denial. I'm sorry I dont want to sound harsh but you are allowing this man to walk all over you. You arent taking anything away from him so he can see what life will be like without you there supporting him, letting him lay in 'your' bed, allowing him to do his laundry at your home,..etc etc.

I'm not sure I understand why you think this is the way to get your marriage back. You have to set some kind of boundaries and let him feel how his life will change without you in it. He is being allowed to have his cake and eat it too ..He has shown no remorse for what he has put you through..and in your situation I dont see things changing.

I hope you will listen to what others who have gone through this have to say. Their experience could save you so much more heartache. They will guide you because you do seem very lost and I feel bad for you.

I am going through my own hell being the WW who has just ended an EA.. but I am so very thankful for a husband who is strong and who has let me know in no uncertain terms that he loves me very much but he will not tolerate a cheating wife. I respect his strength and I never want to hurt or disappoint him again. Knowing this allows me to do the right thing and maintain NC even though the fog has been very thick at times. I am getting there and I will not let him down again.

Please take this as it is meant..not as a criticism of you but as a suggestion. Please dont allow him to walk all over you this way. Set some boundaries and show your strength. I truly feel this is the only way you will realize any positive change in your situation.

I wish you the best..Hugs
Lori

OK, not in a plan? Why not?

The A has a natural cycle, it will not last forever. It sounds like they are getting sick of each other and won't last long. By still staying in contact with H, you are making the A last longer.... I'll write it again...By still staying in contact with H, you are making the A last longer.... How? Why? Because he doesn't have to depend on OW for all of his EN's (rides, laundry, soft/warm bed, someone to listen to his problems).

I know you say you're not ready for Plan B...but that is basically how you're living now, except for the occasional contact. Can you live without the occasional contact? Yes, you can!!! Time to have a talk with H and explain what you're going through, what you want...

Well, what do you want?

N/C with OW
Sobriety....zero tolerance
MC

Pick a few more things...it makes for a good Plan B letter.

Will he change? Yes!!!! Everyone is changing everyday. Will he change the way you want? Probably not. Will he change in a way you can live with? It's up to him. He seems like the kind of person that doesn't feel like he has power or control over his life. He may find it difficult to change...doesn't think he can.

So what about you??? Plan B will start your recovery. It will begin the work on making yourself a better W, and it will preserve the love for H.

My vote is pick a date, and move to Plan B.

How long do you stay in it? Give it 6 months at least (the natural cycle of an A) and maybe a little longer after that (to deal with sobriety). How long can you stay in Plan B for?

OK, not in a plan? Why not?

Because I screw up Plan A by being not as loving as I should be (and because I was told it won't work for an alcoholic because it enables) and because I haven't had the guts to force complete NC Plan B yet.

I'm not sure I understand why you think this is the way to get your marriage back.

I'm seeing more and more that it's not. You'd think I'd be jumping to do something else. I'll equate it to feeling sort of "frozen"--like I can't make a decision at all for fear I'll make the wrong one.

I hope you will listen to what others who have gone through this have to say.

Truly, I DO appreciate and welcome all the posts, and I do listen--I just take a lot longer to analyze and act than I probably should.

I do agree that WS has depended on me for things I should not have allowed--rides, laundry, financial security, etc. I am trying to push him to depend on himself for these things. OW can't provide any of them except the listening ear. She has no car. She's on government assistance because she doesn't work. And she lives with a couple married friends--maybe he could use their laundry?

His truck is fixed again--I'm done with rides. Laundry--maybe once because I already said yes, and then it'll be "do it at your apartment". Fincial security--already told him I can't help him there--he'll have to figure it out.

Well, what do you want?

N/C with OW
Sobriety....zero tolerance
MC

Yes, I'd like all three, but I am willing to accept #1 as a start. I am full well aware that I cannot make him stop drinking. Only he can. I would like him to seek help or go to AA, but am not at this point ready to give up my marriage if it doesn't happen. MC--yes, would like that as well, but finances have to allow. Right now I am in IC as is my daughter, and that's getting expensive. However, still a better chance of MC than sobriety.

My vote is pick a date, and move to Plan B.

While I realize the point he moved out would have been the ideal time, I had sort of in my screwed-up brain said I'll give him 2-3 weeks of "having his own space" to see if anything changes. This means I have 1-2 weeks left. Hard as it is, I know if we're still in the same spot at that time, I do need to break off all contact. (Question there becomes relaying messages about the kids or finances. We might still have to discuss that, and he doesn't have a computer so we can't email.)

How long can I stay in Plan B? I'm not in it yet, so don't know. I do know that even though I'm not initiating any calls to him anymore, I still have a hard time if I don't at least hear his voice once a day to know he's okay. (I used the "I'm giving you the space you wanted excuse because he left an angry message about how I must not care anymore because I'd quit calling). It's not that I think I'll be in Plan B for a month and file for D, it's that I'm afraid I'll fall back out of it easily.

LL

LL
I just want to wish you all the luck in the world. I know how hard it must be for you but I think if you make it clear to him you wont stand for his disrespect it will go a long way. If he begins to feel he may lose you for good what would that do to his attitude? How would he react if you told him to not stop over and leave you completely alone until and unles hes finished with the OW..What if you tell him you have plans this weekend..and what if you do go out for yourself and not as a ploy to make him jealous..just for you?
I just hope and wish you the best LL.. take care and keep us posted.
Hugs
Lori

Saw my IC (one of the two--the one my H used to see as his IC as well, until he cancelled all further appts earlier this week).

IC says he's very proud that I've made progress and that I seem to be doing a better job standing up for myself (not initiating calls, not balancing his checkbook, not pursuing him).

However, and I know everyone is different and not all IC's know it all, he is very skeptical that my H will ever come around, and I think is hoping that I am able to distance myself enough that I can get to the point of permanently leaving him and moving on.

I'm okay with being stronger...but I just can't even force myself to think "Hey, this marriage is probably over and I just need to quit thinking about him and go have a new life."

I'll keep seeing the IC--I like him in most respects. I think he reads me pretty well.

I am trying to set boundaries. I want SO badly to pick up the phone right now and tell my H that my D had a very good day in school. (If anyone has read my earier posts, you'll know my D was expelled from her traditional HS, I appealed the decision, and she's now been enrolled in one of our alternative HS's, and there wasn't a lot of optimism that this would succeed because she's fairly immature at 14.) This is day #2 and the teachers said she still had a smile on her face and seemed happy to be there. I'd love to call and tell him, but that goes against my promise to myself to back off and let him call me.

Is that right...or wrong. I haven't given him a Plan B letter. I'm just trying to give him (and me) space because that's what he asked for initially.

I do better...I do worse. Today at work I was feeling really good about things. Tonight (after the session with the IC), I'm depressed again.

It's hard to put into words. I want to hang on and have hope, but I have this fear that I'll just go through this long, slow, agonizing death of our relationship and have wasted a LOT of time doing it. (I guess I want to see the future and know if we win in the end...wouldn't we all like to know that?)

LL

Sounds like you have a couple of weeks to do a good strong Plan A without enabling...how do you do that??????

Enabling bahavior...

Giving him money
Buying him liquor
Driving him to liquor store

Plan A behavior

Fulfilling his top three EN's which may include
cuddling, affection (I think this is AOK, sex may not be OK now because of STD's and you can tell him that, but necking and cuddling are)
Helping him with his laundry (domestic fulfillment)
Calling him and reminding him how much you care for him and look up to him, compliment him (admiration)

Are these enabling....sure, many S's hate to do this, seems contrary, enables him to continue the A. But what you want is for him to begin Plan B, N/C with you with an overwhlemingly good feeling about you...give him a taste of what he's missing.

Begin to follow your instinct. And read the website, not necessarily the forum. Harley has some great advice on here. Read the books.

And why not ask for all 3 in a letter? You mean you want him back drinking? Someone told me when they have moved out of hte house...then is your time to ask for what you want from them to return...once they return there is no motivation to change...

Enabling bahavior...

Giving him money
Buying him liquor
Driving him to liquor store

Okay, items 2 & 3 I've never done, though I've obviously allowed him to drink when he was with me. Item #1 I was guilty of when he first got his apartment (and I bought him towels--an apartment-warming gift). But no more. I only give him hints when he's in a jam of what he might do.

I haven't done quite as good on the Plan A behavior lately, though. I'm not LBing with outbursts, asking about OW, etc. But I've been letting him basically pursue me. I haven't called, unless he calls first. I don't go visit him (mostly becaue OW may well be there).

Last night, he did come to my house to use the laundry facilities (cheaper than apt), and while we had a nice evening (watched tv, played some cards, fixed dinner for him--no fights, he'd only had a couple beers before coming and drank water at my place so was very sober, and no talk of OW), I didn't actually DO his laundry for him. He did it himself. He also took it upon himself to scoop the foot of crunchy snow off my back patio for me without my asking. He was in a "sucking-up" mood.

I had originally planned to give him my sort-of Plan B letter last night (you'd need to read my later subject I posted a few nights ago to know what prompted it), but he was being so cordial, I couldn't bring myself to do it. Just didn't seem like the right time. I'm sure by tonight I'll be kicking myself.

He didn't spend the night at my place (I did offer because it was almost 1am), but I had already gone to bed by the time he finished his laundry and when he went to leave he came up to my room and gave me a hug and told me thanks.

So once in a while things are good. It's just that I know he's still with her so it really is all fog yet.

LL

here puppy here girl...aww cute puppy...KICK!!!
ahhh cute puppy that's a good puppy KICK!!
smooch smooch KICK!!!!What a good puppy...

So I sat and stared and stared at the opening line...and said...Damn Ark you are cruel (even if you are a girl <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )...but dam that is cruel
..
so delete it or keep it? pondering pondering...because that's all I hear ringing in my head when I read your post...

I am not trying to be cruel...honestly..I get no satisfaction of reading about the chaos you are in...
I think I am even crying as I read and type this..but part of that is lack is sleep since I worked the twelve hour grave yard shift...so most know that on Thursday I am a basket case...

Last night, he did come to my house to use the laundry facilities (cheaper than apt), and while we had a nice evening (watched tv, played some cards, fixed dinner for him--no fights,

how does one have a nice dinner with someone who is so very disrepectful which you lap up and set NO boundaries on...????????????

lordslady when are you going to get real about this...because if your marker of a successful evening is coming over and playing cards..you fixing dinner and no fights....you can have that...you can do it week after week...month after month...year after year...it's certainly your choice...

but none of that is a step in recovery
none of that is dealing with reality...ohhh but it is a nice false reality...which you feel safe in...and lots of pretending going on...
but it is not REAL

when do want to get real about recovery and quit playing house?? and have a real partner with whom to share a life with...

when is the replay of last night set up to happen again...
"come on over WS ..i'll cook for you play cards...be charming...invite you to sleep here cause poor thing looks so tired...
kick
kick
kick
when is he coming again for pretend family fun night...

when does he face the consequance to any of actions...

I refuse to even use the terms plan a or b with you...
you have no concept of any of them..
but am willing to help you figure them out...

So once in a while things are good. It's just that I know he's still with her so it really is all fog yet.

she is soooo not the problem
she is soooo not the issue...
if you really wanted her gone...you could engage in activities that would have her gone rather quickly...

without losing your self and selling yourself in the process over and over again...

man you missed the chance of a real life altering happening last night...
instead of playing family fun night...
you could have been at an ala-non meeting...

You can interperet this as cruel...and I will delete if you or anyone else asks...
I mean you no malice..and I realize how shallow that sounds...as I offer you only grief....

BUT
I believe if you re-focus your energy YOU have a really really really good chance of turning this around...
I believe that you deserve better than pretend family fun night...
I believe that this web-site has the tools and pathway to ground you in reality to create the marriage that you and HE is worthy of..

I believe in your value more than your husband does right now lordslady...and in your childrens...

waiting for you to believe these things as well..

ARK who stared at the enter button a long time... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Ark,

I asked for advice. You can leave it posted.

I guess maybe I'm NOT getting it. Last night he actually acted very respectful of me, more so than he has in a long time. Today, when he called (it's on my other post) to ask if maybe I'd like to go out to eat sometime or come shoot pool at his apartment clubhouse, he does sound like he's making a sincere effort to try and warm back up to me again.

He didn't talk about OW all last night. Normally it's him who brings her, or something about her up, and I've had to tell him I don't want to hear any more of it.

He was sober--I know that's not easy for him right now either.

I guess I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I DO want to set boundaries. I DON'T want to continue to be walked on. It has been easier lately since I've quit being the one to always initiate the calls because now I don't have to be the one waiting for a call to be returned. And it's been easier having him have the apartment, because now I don't have to wonder if he'll be home at night. It has put distance between me and the A.

Am I enabling? Other than allowing him to do his laundry at my place (something I'd agreed to prior), I didn't do anything out of the ordinary. I didn't fix a special dinner. I just offered him some of the hamburger helper that was already there. I did ask if he wanted to play some cards while HE was doing his laundry, so we played a round. I didn't wait on him, I didn't fawn over him.

(I did tell him at one point that I appreciated that he was sober.)

Am I supposed to slam the door on him and ignore him totally? That would be Plan B, but I haven't done the Plan B thingie yet. Doesn't Plan A include trying to at least be cordial? I wasn't overly "sweet" last night. We just had a relaxing night doing stuff. I only offered to let him sleep over because of the time and the drive back to his place (apartment and house aren't close), and he wouldn't have slept in my bed anyway.

Not trying to be snotty back to you at all. I'm just a little dense sometimes and need concrete examples of what I am or am not doing right or wrong.

I am playing Bunco with the neighborhood. women tonight. I had offered him either night to come do his laundry. He could have come tonight. It would have been a lot less risk of tension and fights on his part, and he would have still been able to eat whatever he found in the frig. He chose to come last night, because I was there. I took that as a good sign.

I don't even know what I'm thinking from time to time. Sometimes the thought of not having him as a part of my future about makes me nuts. I had to take down most pictures and other memory-triggers. Other times, I think "Hey, having the house to myself (and kids) and doing things my way is nice. Maybe we should just remain friends."

I've actually felt better over the last week or so than I've felt for months. (Coincidentally, this has also been the same period of time that I stopped chasing him and let him do the chasing.)

Maybe I'm just having a nervous breakdown......

LL