Lordslady -

What have the veterans had to say about your "sort-of Plan B letter?" I do not think that is a good idea. I think these plans only work if you are consistent and follow them precisely. I think that would even mean no emails. No nothing from you to him!

Like AA, he can't sort-of follow that. He can't only drink beer and be considered sober. You are enabling him on all different levels, I think. To some extent, you might as well drive him to the liquor store, give him the money, and pour it in his glass!

If you know he has had a couple of beers, him and his laundry should not enter your home and eat your dinner. Period. That is enabling.

I don't think you should be saying how hard it is for him not to drink, and having pity on him. He is pitiful enough without you feeling it for him as well. All addicts are manipulative. He is manipulating you. And you let him.

I hope you wake up soon. You are a very intelligent woman, but you are in your own fog. Until you can listen to these wise people who are trying so desperately to help you, you will get no where that you want to go.

Where do you want to go? Why are you here? What do you want? You should go to an Alan-on meeting. I did as a kid, because my mother was a co-alcoholic with my step-dad. She paid his DUI's, paid enormous insurance premiums, and after I learned to drive he would take me to the bar the next day to pick up his car.

And when she got sick with MS, he left her, thought she was faking it! A lot of good her enabling did for him. As soon as she couldn't do it anymore, he found someone who could. And good riddance!

Please help yourself to help your husband. You are the only hope either of you has! You have a good chance! Have hope, and faith in yourself.

Love, Amy

Lordslady...

The thing is ...
the good family dinner..
the out to eat with him
the playing pool at the club house...
(do not hand that woman a pool stick... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> kidding)

Are extremely easy easy easy for him...he can and will behave when he gets lots of gains from it...
do you understand that??

That nice dinners and games...means no real relationship work or reality..
it's all pretend that everything is OK...

and this will bite because when you set boundaries on what is intolerable in your world he will accuse you that it was "OK" last week or last time...and why are you doing this..
and why are you changing things now...etc etc..

This is one of the reasons that plan A is lost on the behaviors of an alchoholic...because their taker and selfishnes is always turned on AND never acknowledged by them...

He has it made...
he gets to have crazy monkey sex with OW>..(which is really empty shallow sad using of two grownup...)
he gets to call you on the phone be pissy enough to keep you in your place....
and you still invite him over for dinner...etc...

I am not talking about plan B either...for you...i am talking about anything but enabling his cake eating.....

(I did tell him at one point that I appreciated that he was sober.)

lordslady..lets just start with that line...
you appreciate he is sober...
what does that mean???
and what does that sentence mean to him..
and what are you really saying...

glad you are sober...
but the truth is I would have taken you high, drunk, pissed on yourself passed out also...
but i "appreciate" soberness...

I wouldn't appreciate my husband being sober...I expect it...that is my expectation of alcoholics...that admit to having a problem as yours' does...but get enough brownie points for saying it from friends and family..that it is all good...

No ws you can come laundry this time..but I expect no drinking ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Let's look at your own fear in telling him this expectation...
not appreciating it..
but setting it clear and strong...

I only offered to let him sleep over because of the time and the drive back to his place (apartment and house aren't close), and he wouldn't have slept in my bed anyway.

you know what you do...at the height of being all comfy and warm in the evening..you say..
GEE thanks for coming...glad you laundry is done but you gotta to leave now... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
i have to get to bed....scoot his butt out the door...
hit him with what he is choosing...the reality of this is NOT is home right now based on HIS choice...
that's not plan b.
that's reality...
NOT OFFERRING HIM A BED...
You are more likely to offer him a bed and then expect to get points because...
you didn't make him breakfast in bed!!!

where is he living the reality of his actions...because all you are handing him is the best of both worlds...

all that stuff about if he came tonight...you wouldn't have been there...is a bogus excuse..you can be gone any time you want.....
not only when you have somewhere to go...

you are sending him messages that say walk all over me...it's OK>..

not plan b...boundaries...

ark

Hey there,

Lots of advice here, I know I'm full of it. But no one knows your situation better than yourself. Sometimes you will do things that you just feel are right...don't apologize, you know your situation better.

I think it was AOK to have a pleasant evening with WH, especially because he was sober. It shows he understands at least one part of what coming back to you will take. It was great to have a nice evening and to show him what he is missing by not being there, and what he will come back to.

You can't Plan A an alcoholic? Not so sure about that, don't have as much experience with alcoholism. But how is Plan A not enabling an A too? I think Plan A isn't about enabling or not, it's showing the WS what changes YOU can make to make the M better. I don't think it is lost on an addicted S. I know, the alcoholic is selfish, but that pretty much describes every WS too. I think it may be important to let him know how his drinking and A hurt you. To let him know it is NOT OK with you that he continues, but that you are trying your best to be the best W, but don't know how long you can keep this up. Sort of a Plan B forewarning...

My suggestion? Read SAA, read articles from this website. Have you considered calling the Harley's for phone counseling? I have heard EXCELLENT things about it. Perhaps broach the subject with WH saying, "I have the name of a person to call for phone counseling, they are supposed to be very good. I will talk with them alone, but would like for you to talk with them with me some day, is that OK?"

Do you have a time in mind for Plan B? You have a better idea about the timing.

No definitel timeline for a formal Plan B at this point. I was REALLY ready after his stupid sex statement and had a letter written (actually draft 3 of the same letter I've had written), but the timing was all wrong, and now it's not the right time for that letter.

Okay...boundaries. Ark, and all the rest of you, prepare your 2x4's in case I've screwed up again.

I played Bunco with neighbors last night. H left a message on the cell while I was gone asking me to call him this morning to remind him to pick up our D at school at noon. Figured I better return that call so I did this morning.

He's called three times since, telling me he's having a really hard time today dealing with things, though he hasn't elaborated and I did NOT ask for details. I know one is finances. Rent is due for him by the 3rd--payday is the 5th. He'll be cash advancing on his credit card. The only advice I offered him--call the number on the back and get the billing address. That way, once you get paid you can send them a payment right away and not accrue as much interest.
(Sorry...the accountant in me coming out.)

He called again. I asked what was up. He said he needed a booster talk. Again, not sure what he needs and didn't ask. I just told him I do still love him as much as I did 2 years ago, or 5 years ago, and that I am praying for him. Told him I hope we are able to stay married, but that he needs to understand that I have come to the realization that I am miserable because I am not respecting myself.

I told him that I'd love to welcome him back, but cannot do that as long as I'm not absolutely assured that the OW is out of the picture, because being married doesn't include 2 women. I also told him he needs to get help for his drinking, because being drunk clouds his thinking and things won't work that way.

I said, "Do you understand? I love you. I don't want a divorce. I would be very sad and very hurt if you walk away, but it's your choice. I don't want to force you to stay with me. I want you to be with me because you love me. You either have to abide by my two criteria, or you stay in the apartment. It's your decision.

I also told him that I recognized that if we did get back together that I also have a lot of work to do (like be home and be a real wife--but it's rather irrelevant to this post).

He didn't seem angry...just sounds really chilly and depressed. I think he's been a few nights without seeing OW, and he feels it now.

However, he also called (before this last call) and asked if I'd be interested in maybe going to our friends tonight and playing some cards. I do like playing and I'd love to get out. But he always goes down there and gets trashed.

I already had opened my mouth and said yes, I might like to consider it (though he may have changed his mind after that last conversation) but that I'm working later tonight.

Do you think, if he still considers taking me down tonight (and that's "iffy" now), that it would be wrong for me to say, "I'd love to play some cards, but I don't like being there with you when you get trashed. If we go, we'll take both vehicles, and if you get drunk, I will not stay."

Well??? Did I just trash my marriage? It was really hard making some of those statements, and will be hard abiding by them and not getting frantic if he does decide to say so long to me permanently.

But I'm reading Dr. Dobson's book and am almost finished. What I'm seeing is that he doesn't go so far as to recommend the equivalent of a no-contact Plan B in these situation but he does basically recommend everything else--setting boundaries, not tolerating the A, but instead asking the WS to move out until they make their decision, and not enabling them by making them comfortable (no sex, etc, was how I read that).

It also has a section that deals with an alcoholic spouse, and it also speaks of the not enabling and the possible separation to make the spouse feel the pain.

That's what I'm trying to do.

Am I getting it at all? Or am I still totally missing the target???

LL

Yet another call just received: He wrote a check at noon today for the remainder of his security deposit (did I know he didn't have the money? No?? Thus it's not my problem.)

Anyway, he just called asking me for the PIN# for the credit card he's using so he can get a quick cash advance to cover the check. Sorry, I don't carry the PIN with me--have never cash advanced on that card.

He's all pissy now. Says "Thanks! That just adds to my stress!!"

I told him it's probably in the lockbox at home and that if he calls me tonight, I'll look and give it to him, and that otherwise he'll need to go directly to the bank the card is thru tomorrow.
(Hey, no $ is leaving my accounts--he obviously knows better than to ask.)

I told him the check wouldn't clear by tomorrow morning anyway and to quit sweating, but he hung up. (I'm thinking card playing is out for tonight).

Am I doing okay? I was helpful (verbally), just not physically.

He wrote a bad check. He needs to make sure there are funds in the account BEFORE writing the check. Not running to you afterwards to make it right for him.

If you make the check good, you have enabled him again.

JMHO

sss

Wow, that sounded great on the phone, and how you handled the credit card business... His stress is NOT YOUR FAULT, no matter how much he wants to blame you.

What do you think about writing down basically what you told him on the phone and giving it to him in a letter. It is the start of a Plan B, but without the N/C. You can warn him in the letter that the situation is very hurtful and you are doing the best you can, but if it gets to be too much, more than you can handle, you will have to drastically decrease your contact with him someday...sort of a Plan B warning. I know Plan B is supposed to come as a surprise, but each situation is different.

Have you considered getting phone counseling with the Harley's? From wht I've heard, it is well worth the money.

I have considered phone counseling, but right now the finances are still up in the air (mine are quite a bit more solid than his, though, which is good for what I'm trying to accomplish...him hitting bottom.) Being an accountant, I am obcessed with tracking my spending down to the # of rolls of TP I buy (well, maybe not quite that bad, but I'm pretty obcessive). I am not great at following a budget...we blew it a lot when we were together and dipped into our little savings account.

But now that we're living separately, I am being very careful, I know EXACTLY what I'm spending (which is frankly quite nice because he was always the one who'd go buy a $100 accessory for the Harley and THEN tell me.) He's not good at holding to a budget, and with his income which is less than mine, and then that he's paying me child support, he doesn't have much to live on.

I might at some point contact the Harleys. However, I know it would be me only unless something really changes with him. Remember, he hasn't really even decided if he wants a marriage yet (though he gets really nervous if the D word comes up.)

Okay...venting now!!

Broke my own latest rule and called H just after work to see if he'd decided on his plans tonight and if his work day had improved.

He is colder than a block of dry ice. VERY pissy at me. In a nutshell, he says he now knows EXACTLY where stands and that I'm shoving a bunch of rules down his throat and basically, **** me.

I told him again (an I know...borders on chasing...starting to panic) that I do love him and that I still do want to be married, but again that I don't want it to be forced on his part, and that yes, I am trying to protect myself and to regain my respect for myself and that certain things do have to happen in order to get back together.

I don't remember his last comment word for word but the meaning I read into it is, "fine, go jump in a lake because I'm going to do what I want and if you're not a part of it, too darned bad."

I think the big D is now running through his mind.

It scares me. I can sound really intimidating on the phone sometimes just by trying to convey what I have in my mind clearly. I am one of those people who was not blessed with a sweet, soft, meek voice, and because I communicate a lot verbally on my job, I think it is more that the way I speak when I'm really thinking hard about what I'm trying to say is interpreted as cold and hateful.

So, am I screwed now? I am pissed enough at him and his little-boy attitude at this particular moment that as lonely as I may be this weekend, I am definely on the no-call-him plan again.

I am increasingly getting the feeling that there's no way on God's green earth that this marriage is going to survive, no matter how much I've hoped and prayed it would. When do you know when it's time to just let go, just to end the frustration and the agony it's causing all parties involed?

Why am I in a way concerned about Plan B? Because A)I'm afraid he'll just forget me, B) He gets so angry and cold when I stop initiating the calls, that total N/C might just push him to the breaking point, because it makes him think I don't give a crap about him, and C) because it's very hard for me to not know he's okay.

UGHHHHH!!!!!

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Help pleeeeezzze? I'm really feeling shaky right now. I had gotten better about not thinking about WH and us and OW all the time. I was feeling better about boundaries. Now, after knowing I really peeved WH off with my phone calls, I'm obcessing again. I think going into another weekend alone is part of it. I don't have anything to do (besides clean the house...which I will work on tomorrow). Kids have plans both Fri/Sat with friends.

Actually, I'm still sitting in my office at work, but am obviously not getting much done.

I just went to the Harley's counseling site, but chickened out. $185/session--and I assume the intake session is counted, even though that's not where the real counseling begin. I could pay maybe one or two max, from what I could spare out of my upcoming tax refund. And I'm not sure it makes sense if WH isn't willing--and we KNOW he's not.

I am really struggling right now. Feel like I'm losing all hope. Feeling like no matter which way I go, it's all going to end in us not being together.

Even though admittedly it's peaceful around the house when it's just me running it and it is easier not to worry about him when he has the apartment (I don't have to wonder if he's coming home or not), I REALLY can't grasp the concept of him not being in my life anymore. Like I said, I already have taken down most pictures, and all other triggers that make me think of him. I can't watch family videos. Heck I can't even watch most of our regular movies because they'll bring back memories of watching them together.

I can't work on S's scrapbooking anymore, because I always stumble onto photos of him. I basically live in this protected bubble. (Don't turn this way, don't look at that, because you might thing of the good times and the fact that they're probably gone forever, and start crying again.)


I wan't to be an optimist. All I can think about at this second is, "Great, my marriage is ending. I'm losing my high-school sweetheart and love of my life. And there are 28 million single women over 35 and 18 million men. Great odds."

Whether you think I follow it correctly or not, I am realizing that I really do rely on the advice/encouragement/scoldings that come to me on this board to keep me focused and going.

Well, I'm still here reading your posts, lordslady. And it is frightening to think about losing him, but those feelings will pass. Maybe if you try and realize that he won't be ready to come home until you can for sure live without him, it will help you move down that road more readily.

You see, you, as I, have been forced on a path that neither of us wants to be on. And I railed against that for a long time, too. But, alas, we are on it, are we not? And we cannot get off this path. All we can do is travel down it with as much common sense and dignity as we can muster. And we each have such a blessing with finding these boards and all these wise and kind people!

So take heart. It could be much worse - think about life without being able to vent here!

I don't know if you will be interested in doing this, but all the books I have read say that affairs don't happen in strong marriages. So, at my first MT session, WH and I were told to write about what did and did not work in our marriage.

3/4 of the first page I wrote was what worked, and the rest of the 3 PAGE letter was what didn't work! I hadn't looked at everything all together before. It was a real eye opener. Once I saw that, I was surprised we didn't have a crisis sooner. I have been with WH since I was 16.

Which isn't to say I don't want it to work, because I do. BUT, when this first happened 8 weeks ago, I was so angry because I thought he had ruined this "perfect" marriage. Now my eyes are open, and I see it for the flawed R is really was. Which is good, because if you don't know where it's broken, how can you fix it?

Start working on your end of it, I guess is what I am saying. You can control you. You can't control him. And as soon as he sees you are not paying attention to him anymore, I think you will start seeing some of the things you are looking for now. Does that make sense to you?

I am no expert. I am new here. I am just sharing with you what has helped me.

Hugs and love. Take care of YOU. Sign up for an art class at the local craft store. Get more books. I love "Torn Asunder." Just go hang out at the book store and get a coffee or fruit smoothy and read there for a while. Call some girlfriends and hang out at their house. Rent some movies. Call a relative or friend you haven't talked to in a while. Write letters to old friends.

Can't find something to do on the weekend with no kids??? Are you nuts??? Think about when they were little and you couldn't get away, all the stuff you wanted to do.

Use this as your golden opportunity to grow, without having his crap in your face every day.

Hmmmmmm, you can look at it in all different ways if you choose to!

Amy

Can't find something to do on the weekend with no kids??? Are you nuts??? Think about when they were little and you couldn't get away, all the stuff you wanted to do.

I know, that really does sound stupid, doesn't it. People with small children are probably saying "Huh??!"

I really don't have any close female friends that I hang out with outside of work. I've made work so important that outside of it and my family, I've had no life for years.

I do like the idea of signing up for a class at the local craft store. I hadn't thought of that. I have absolutely NO creative thoughts, but maybe they could help me.

Today I'm basically stuck here at home waiting on calls from work. Then I'm probably going to have to pack up and actually go IN to work. Tonight is when I'll need the distractions. It's hard being here alone on a Saturday night..and again, I believe both kids have plans.

I am trying to live for myself. It is VERY difficult. I will admit I have never been a strong, independent person when it comes to my personal life (work life--different--very strong, very independent--go figure?). I have depended and leaned on my husband to make me feel whole since I met him at 15. It is a huge change and it's coming VERY slowly, and painfully.

How about a women's support group? Or alanon????? You need to start building a support system to help you deal with this crisis.

I'm like you, I was so busy with work, H and kids and his family, I had little time for me or friends. But I am changing that now. It feels good.

I know everyone is shaking their heads when I say this, but I haven't given up on Al-Anon. I haven't been back, and now I'm in my busy season at work so often don't even leave the office until 7-8pm. (VERY few midnight departures like in past years though...putting my foot down...that has ruined everything.)

Women's support groups--how do I find them? I'm in a small church, arould 80 regular attendees, and they don't have anything like that. They have a singles group, but it's mainly for college-age people, and I'm not single anyway.

Me too! I leaned on WH for MUCH. Too much, which is why I am where I am. Unfortunately, I was unable to grow up until I was forced to.

And now I am, and WOW! I am alive! I am me! I am OK! That's fine that you only have work friends. Sounds like you spend a lot of time there.

Ask one of them to go out - a girl only! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Go to dinner, go to a movie, go have a drink and chat.

I didn't think I was creative until I took an oil painting class. I have completed two paintings, and everyone cannot believe they are my first two (the art instructor could fix ANYTHING <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ).

Which goes to show, like everything else in life, you don't know until you try.

I have also stenciled a lot of stuff in my kids' rooms, I have stenciled sunflowers all around my kitchen. Painted all rooms except my bedroom (which is next, because WH and OW did it on my floor - out of respect for me - OW being my "best friend" and all - they didn't do it on my bed - supposedly! Who believes liars??? Too much info? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) and my bathroom and the computer room.

You are still breathing, you physically have everything you did before WH left you (except his drunk butt in front of your face every day, with his A in your face every day). I think about how bad I felt the 2 or 3 months before D-day, knowing something was terribly wrong and not knowing what it was. And at least I don't have that in my face each day anymore. Do you know what I mean?

Start looking at positives. Start thinking "outside the box." Challenge yourself. Test your limits. Find out what YOU are made of. I have been pleasantly surprised, and I think you will be, as well.

Lots of love. I need to go take my shower. I came right to the boards after the gym, and now my sweat is all dried and stinky! YUCK!

Hey, that's another thing you could do! Join a gym! Go only to a women's gym if you are uncomfortable. If you already belong to one, why haven't I read about you going, in your posts? Hmmmmmm????

Hugs and love! Amy

Hey, that's another thing you could do! Join a gym! Go only to a women's gym if you are uncomfortable. If you already belong to one, why haven't I read about you going, in your posts? Hmmmmmm????

Because I'm allergic to exercise?? Seriously, my throat swells shut, my face turns purple, and boils break out all over my body. (okay, maybe not.)

Seriously, the cost (budget is VERY tight now with us doing two residences) and absolutely no motivation to exercise. That is the truthful answer. I did buy another exercise video a couple weeks ago--it's still in the shrinkwrap.
Unfortunately, because I've always been underweight (not to be confused with proportioned properly or lacking cellulite), I've never had the "lose weight" motivation. I know, at 38, I could use some serious toning. I just can't seem to make myself do it.

You are right. I am shaking my head.

However my specialty is hopeless situations. Here is a website for you.

http://www.ola-is.org/olais/chat.htm

I do not how to do the links or I would. This site lists some online alanon chatrooms and has other good information.

Well, that is the challenge part, isn't it???

You have all the control and power over you. Maybe you need to prove something to yourself on other levels, so you know you can handle what you have to handle with WH.

At 38, now is a GREAT time to begin weight lifting. At 30, your bones began to lose density. Weight lifting (all weight bearing exercise), builds bone mass. You know, osteoperosis and all that!

My gym membership is only $24 a month. Curves, if they have them there, is fairly inexpensive.

I'm just throwing out some ideas. You could put on a headset and go for a walk. I don't know what the weather is like, but sunshine on your face and hands makes Vitamin D, which is how your body absorbs Calcium - you know, osteoperosis and all that! Sunlight also produces saratonin in your brain, and makes you feel better!

Take care of YOU. NOTHING will be more attractive to your WH than seeing that you are moving on. He is going to start feeling like the train is leaving without him. And you might surprise yourself. If you fake it at first like I did, you might actually start moving on, like I am.

WH just picked up the boys for the night, and I am off for a late lunch and a night out with the girlfriends.

I'm not going to go too crazy, though, because my first "Steps to Joining" class begins at 9 am at my church tomorrow morning. I'm excited! This is the first church I have ever joined, and I'm going to join the choir, too. (I'm NOT going to tell them about the Christina Agulara singing, though. Hopefully my boys will keep quiet about that, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

And my boys and I are getting baptized in May. The first for all three of us! WOW!

Love and hugs, Amy

Sorry to confuse. I posted Christina Agulara to someone else, but I'll show you what I am talking about.

"I used to play Christina Agulara's "Thanks for making me a fighter" song over and over and scream the lyrics. My kids thought I was going nuts, but now they see I am OK, and they don't really even remember."

This was something I posted to someone earlier who is having a hard time. I was trying to give her ideas, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am a crazy nut! Best of luck. Let me know what you think about the support link Believer gave you.

Amy

Hi gals


Well I went and got groceries. Then me and D went and got hair cuts and I tanned for the first time since I was 19. Boy it feels good to take care of me for a change. How are you today? Keep your chin up and head held high. I am feeling good today. WH came and looked me over but good today. Must be he sees what he is missing. Oh well, the OW can have him for now. They can just be as happy as clams in their screwed up world. You guys take care for now and go do something for yourself, it feels good!