Well, you may have to accept some day that he is a lost cause. You will have to decide at that point if you can live in this kind of chaos or not. But I sure wouldn't give up hope before you try some new strategies.

If my X-H hadn't told me AA or the highway, I wouldn't be sitting here tonight. Your H has a lower bottom than that, though, so tougher measures are in order. Your H needs some good old fashioned tough love to wake him up and that tough love is to be found in Plan B with a support system like Al-Anon.

You are thinking about D way too soon, IMO, LL. There are lots of things you can try before you ever get to that point!

It's a TOTAL lack of hope for him to ever get better regardless issue--like Dr. Harley is just saying in a round about way "And why the heck would you even want to be married to a person who is an alcoholic??? They're a lost cause. Give them up."

sufdb...I don't think he is saying "want" to be married....I think he is saying "can't" be married...in other words a marriage to an alcoholic is not a marriage (except on paper), it is an enabling dependentcy for one...and a debilitateing prison for the other.

Sometimes LL, life is just about reality, and acceptance of that reality.....rather than hope and angst over what we want it to be.

Sufdb,

And again, I go back to my statement. This sounds like "give him up--no other way. wake up and see reality and move on to someone else."

It's very hard for me to do this. I do love him. May 19 years of marriage, while they've definitely had their down moments, have not been a debilitating prison. I love him. It's the A that jump-started this whole mess, and yes, and alcoholic who was dry on his own for 2 years who had NO support system in place(agreed, of his own choosiing). NOW, it is hell. But I don't want to give up. I love him too much to just say, "Okay, I realize there's no hope. I'm moving on. Rot in hell."

I WANT to believe he CAN get better. I want to prove Dr. Harley and all the others wrong who are saying "ditch him"

Sometimes LL, life is just about reality, and acceptance of that reality.....rather than hope and angst over what we want it to be. Again, I feel like this can only be interpreted as leave him and move on. Suck it up, and get over it.

<small>[ February 21, 2004, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> Sufdb,

And again, I go back to my statement. This sounds like "give him up--no other way. wake up and see reality and move on to someone else."

It's very hard for me to do this. I do love him. May 19 years of marriage, while they've definitely had their down moments, have not been a debilitating prison. I love him. It's the A that jump-started this whole mess, and yes, and alcoholic who was dry on his own for 2 years who had NO support system in place(agreed, of his own choosiing). NOW, it is hell. But I don't want to give up. I love him too much to just say, "Okay, I realize there's no hope. I'm moving on. Rot in hell."

I WANT to believe he CAN get better. I want to prove Dr. Harley and all the others wrong who are saying "ditch him" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, then why won't you do anything to help him if you love him so much? And why are you in a marriage where there is no love? You do realize that he does not have the capacity to love you back, don't you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> Sufdb,

And again, I go back to my statement. This sounds like "give him up--no other way. wake up and see reality and move on to someone else."

It's very hard for me to do this. I do love him. May 19 years of marriage, while they've definitely had their down moments, have not been a debilitating prison. I love him. It's the A that jump-started this whole mess, and yes, and alcoholic who was dry on his own for 2 years who had NO support system in place(agreed, of his own choosiing). NOW, it is hell. But I don't want to give up. I love him too much to just say, "Okay, I realize there's no hope. I'm moving on. Rot in hell."

I WANT to believe he CAN get better. I want to prove Dr. Harley and all the others wrong who are saying "ditch him"

Sometimes LL, life is just about reality, and acceptance of that reality.....rather than hope and angst over what we want it to be. Again, I feel like this can only be interpreted as leave him and move on. Suck it up, and get over it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...I know it's hard to give up ll, been there, done that. But giving up is just a sign of a rational mind, it doesn't mean ditching someone, it means recognizing you are not God, and giving someone over to Him. You may have a rescuer complex LL, an overdeveloped sense of responsibility, you might want to consider that....I really don't think this is much about your H, it is about you.

btw, you don't have to move on to someone else, this isn't about that...this is about what is real, what is right now, and must be decided on it's own merits, not what might be with someone else. Also ll, what if losing you is what he needs to finally hit bottom and decide to recover....what if it is YOU preventing the recovery you wish for him....what if losing you forever is the only way he can be saved? I know ll, tough considerations, that is why we try to percieve the "rules" that govern healthy human behavioir, so we can make healthy choices....the affair was not the problem, it was only a sympton...

ll, you sound like a rescuer...are you?

ML,

ok, then why won't you do anything to help him if you love him so much?

I know I haven't gone immediately to complete N/C blackness. But since Feb 9th, he has had an apartment that I essentially forced him to get because he changed his mind at the last minute. He's only spent one night at my house since that time, and it included nothing sexual. I have not bailed him out financially. I have stopped being the pursuer. And today I verbally expressed to him that he was not moving back from the apartment until I was certain he was done with OW and I wanted him to be getting help for his drinking. I know---it's not exactly what you said, but do I get any credit for making a teeny step in the right direction? (Yes, I love him dearly, and because of that, and perhaps mothering him for 23 years, it is VERY difficult to just let go, even if it may be the proper thing.)

And why are you in a marriage where there is no love?

Currently I concur about 99%. Showings of love since December have been few, though when my father ended up in ICU, my H, upon coming home and seeing me upset and asking what was wrong, immediately demanded I get up, take a shower, and that we get in the car and get down there. Then, he could have easily left me for my sis to bring home--she was there, but he pulled a couple chairs together in the ICU waiting room and slept there all night with our family. Did he have to do that? No. Did I ask him to? No.

He also spent a number of hours and some of his own money fixing a snowblower he found and bringing it to me a few weeks ago so that I didn't have to scoop. Did he have to do that? No. Did I ask him? No. Did I reward him with anything other than a sincere thanks? No.

I agree he has always had a problem showing love, or any other emotion except frustration and anger. His childhood sucked. He learned it from his parents--I know because I've been with him since BEFORE his own parents split up and ditched him. I've been through it all with him. But he does show love in his own little ways, and when they do show, they are appreciated.

You do realize that he does not have the capacity to love you back, don't you?

In his current state with the A and the alcohol problem, yes.

sufdb,

You may have a rescuer complex LL, an overdeveloped sense of responsibility

Perhaps true. Might explain why I was at work until midnight fixing (or trying anyway) other people's screwups they dumped my way at the last minute and then bolted.

btw, you don't have to move on to someone else

Okay, something I'm extremely sure of...I do NOT want to spend the rest of my life as a single woman! (this may play a teeny part in my fears)

Also ll, what if losing you is what he needs to finally hit bottom and decide to recover....what if it is YOU preventing the recovery you wish for him....what if losing you forever is the only way he can be saved?

Don't think the thought hasn't come into my head 100 times. Call me weak, call me selfish, call me chicken, call me whatever...I am not able to deal with that thought.

I prayed to God tonight, in tears, on my 1/2 hour drive home, that he would keep me strong and that he would work in H's (and kids') hearts. I have been praying for a Christian family for about 10 years off and on now. If nothing else, I am persistant. I hang on to the statements that with God all things are possible, and that He hates divorce (this I still believe His will for us to be able to save the marriage and not ditch it).

....the affair was not the problem, it was only a sympton...

I believe that is wholeheartedly true--it was a symptom that the quality of our marriage had rapidly deteriorated and I didn't recognize it (and a lot of it was actually of my doing--tonight is a good example of what I've done for the last two years--worked until the wee hours and expected everyone to function on their own because I was making good money for them.)

I don't however, believe it was a symptom of his alcoholism. As I've stated in other posts, he's had several sober periods during our time together ranging anywhere from a few month to just over 2 years, with the longest period also being his most recent sober period. I really did have hope that he could beat it this time.

But he met OW, got involved, felt guilty I believe and couldn't handle reality, and before I was fully aware of the seriousness of the A, he began drinking again in late October. He had no support system like AA in place because unfortunately he is one of those people who don't think they need anyone's help (not doctors when they're sick, not IC's when they have emotional issues, and not AA for alcohol--they can do it all themself). I believe he has very low self-esteem and it makes him feel week to admit as a man that he needs or wants help, and I wish I could help with that, but I can't. I'm the opposite. I'll reach out to whoever I can (and drive them crazy in the process) because I know I can't do it alone.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> ML,

ok, then why won't you do anything to help him if you love him so much?

I know I haven't gone immediately to complete N/C blackness. But since Feb 9th, he has had an apartment that I essentially forced him to get because he changed his mind at the last minute. He's only spent one night at my house since that time, and it included nothing sexual. I have not bailed him out financially. I have stopped being the pursuer. And today I verbally expressed to him that he was not moving back from the apartment until I was certain he was done with OW and I wanted him to be getting help for his drinking. I know---it's not exactly what you said, but do I get any credit for making a teeny step in the right direction? (Yes, I love him dearly, and because of that, and perhaps mothering him for 23 years, it is VERY difficult to just let go, even if it may be the proper thing.)

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, LL, but love means that you do what is best for the object of your affection, NOT what feels good for you. See what I mean? You can't claim you love him and then refuse to give him the medicine he needs because it's "difficult" for you.

Let me tell you something that I know about alcoholics. They are VERY DEPENDENT on their spouses. VERY. They are children. You see, he is able to carry on like he does because he knows you will be there to catch him. He can go on for a long time like this as long as he knows you are there for him - and you are at his beck and call, you can't deny that. The only thing that will stop him now is if he gets killed in an accident or arrested. OR...if he has his foundation and source of security [the enabling spouse] suddenly removed.

I can't tell you how many alcoholics I have seen who showed up at AA because their spouse cut them off. It is a HUGE SHOCK when Mommy or Daddy cuts us loose! We can't believe it! Now, is this any guarantee that he will sober up? No, but it is your best chance and what you are doing doesn't have a chance in hell of acheiving anything.

He can work you like Play-doh and he knows it and you know it. As long as you continue to allow that, he will stay drunk. UNLESS he gets killed or arrested, which is very likely.

I know you don't want to go dark, but it is your best chance of helping him sober up, IMO. Think about HIM. You would absolutely have to go to Al-anon meetings to support you through this.

They are VERY DEPENDENT on their spouses. VERY.

Okay, until the A, I would TOTALLY agree with this. And yep, I've always been there to bail him out. I could kick myself now for bailing him out of jail 12 years ago after his 2nd OWI, because he was actively involved in his first affair at the time. I was so afraid he'd lose his job and we'd lose everything, that I did it.

So is it in my favor at this OW has nothing--no money, no car, no place of her own--basically nothing to help him with except perhaps bottles of booze?

I do want to help him. I have a problem making life-altering decisions because instead of just beang able to jump out ther and do it, I "freeze" with fear. That's what I'm struggling with.

Because I know I've irritated the crap out of most people on here now, I doubt many read my posts, but if you read my mid-yesterday posts about my conversations with him over the phone and the response, it might be a lead up to what I think I'm going to create shortly as a new thread.

I have written a Plan B letter 4 times now--obviously writing it (and having a friend proof it) is as far as it's gotten. But draft 4 is totally different than all the others, and probably doesn't fit Dr. Harley's format at all. However, I may post it soon to get feedback.

I want to make sure if I do do a Plan B, that I'm not conveying anger or hostility or snippyness in my letter (I have a tendency to come across that way even though I didn't mean it). I want to project love, and my hope that we can be together again. I want him to be able to read it and understand why, and not just think I'm ditching him.

On a side note, PLEASE forgive my awful grammar and typos (I see them glaring at me as a reread my posts). Just remember--I'm an accountant. I do numbers, not words!

LL, the letter needs to be FIRM, unrelenting and convey the message that you are done with his nonsense. He already knows you love him. He knows you are Play-Doh in his hands. You don't need to tell him all that again.

What he needs to hear for the first time is some SELF RESPECT and some TOUGH LOVE. That his nonsense is UNACCEPTABLE.

Don't leave any holes for him to exploit. He is an exploiter and a BS artist, don't give him any ammunition or you will be WASTING YOUR TIME. And he will test you the Nth degree, that is why I say get to Al-anon so you can endure it.

And most importantly, LL, if you do this you have be able to carry it through WITHOUT WAVER. Any wavering will be viewed as a sign of weakness to be exploited and he will not take you seriously. So don't waste your time unless you are committed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>
I want to make sure if I do do a Plan B, that I'm not conveying anger or hostility or snippyness in my letter (I have a tendency to come across that way even though I didn't mean it). I want to project love, and my hope that we can be together again. I want him to be able to read it and understand why, and not just think I'm ditching him. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He knows you aren't ditching him when you give him a PATH BACK. But you MAY if he doesn't straighten up. You tell him when he does something about his drinking and gets rid of the OW to call you and you can discuss reconciliation. Until, you are getting on with your life and devoting yourself to your children instead of his sick antics.

You don't want to tell him that you are sitting there on the sidelines waiting for him. You are moving on and he can join the parade if he does certain things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> On a side note, PLEASE forgive my awful grammar and typos (I see them glaring at me as a reread my posts). Just remember--I'm an accountant. I do numbers, not words! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, we have no grammar police around here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ll,

Melody really knows her stuff. She is a wonderful contributor to the board. You would benefit from listening to her...it might just save your marriage...and his life!

You really have to love him enough to want what is best for him. Right now, you want what you think is best for you...and that is your H.

You are not even considering him and what he needs to be well in all this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

At the risk of being judgmental I will say that you are being somewhat selfish here.

YOU want him....YOU want the marriage...YOU don't want to be single. What about what he NEEDS...as in sobriety?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

If it takes you Plan Bing him for him to get sober, why are you refusing to help him? Do not let this be about what YOU need right now.

Top priority should be his sobriety and dumping the OW. Help him in that way. Step aside and place your own wants on the back burner and let him get well.

He cannot start UP ...til he reaches the bottom. Stop cushioning him...let him hit so that he can start the climb out.

committed

At the risk of being judgmental I will say that you are being somewhat selfish here.

That is a part of me that I don't like very well. I want it all--him better and me not to lose him. In all truthfulness, it is a bit of fear and probably unintentional selfishness (my mother did note in my own baby book that I was selfish--thanks Mom)

Trying to change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>

That is a part of me that I don't like very well. I want it all--him better and me not to lose him. In all truthfulness, it is a bit of fear and probably unintentional selfishness (my mother did note in my own baby book that I was selfish--thanks Mom)

Trying to change. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, I think the latter is probably closer to the truth. You are afraid and that is normal, but you have to realize that his well being has to come BEFORE your fear. If you truly want him better and want to have him in a marriage, then its time to put your money where your mouth is and start taking action to effect that change. You can't say you want him better and then continue to enable him. Your words have to match your actions.

Thanks committed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks committed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just speaking the truth... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are quite welcome.

committed