I have been reading on this board for half a year now -- and posting since November. When I first posted my story (click my profile if you like for the full version), I had one response from SONOFWF that has been worrying me now for months.

Very brief background: My husband and I have been married almost six years now; we dated six years before marrying. Two years before we were married, while we were in different countries, I had a one-evening fling (make-out- kissing only). I was drunk (for the second time in my life) and was horrified by what happened. This in no way reflected behavior at any time before in my life. And in no way have I ever found cheating acceptable. I had and have alway truly loathed such behavior.

If there were one day in my life I could "do over", it would be this one.

I was scared of losing my boyfriend. I took the coward's route and didn't tell him about it. I was so ashamed and shocked; I just wanted to forget it ever happened. The next year we grew closer. Two years later, we married.

So, fast forward five and a half years to six months ago. I started having flashbacks to what happened so long ago. I told him about it. He forgave me and truly seems fine. We've talked about it a number of times. He's told me countless times that he really knows me and trusts me. He is and always has been the best thing that's ever happened to me.

When I initially posted about this, I also wrote about another occasion four years ago when I flirted with someone at a party. I had had too much to drink. I know what this is going to sound like, but I truly have only drank a handful of times in my life. And that was a somewhat difficult time my husband and I had been going through. No, I'm not making excuses. I'm just trying to understand myself so I never repeat the incident from 8 years ago -- regardless of how tough times may be.

Sorry about how long this has taken, but my question is in response to a response by SonOfWF from a few months back. I had written that my husband didn't want to know all the specific details. (Of course we talked about what happened.) He doesn't think it's the huge deal I think it is, and he just wants to put it behind us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can relate to your H’s reaction. I don’t believe I would want to know the details of the affairs. I would not want to destroy my image of you. I would not want to feel the pain and grief of betrayal. If, I allowed myself to have those feeling, the M would be in serious trouble. I might not be able to continue being married.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question is this, if this is true, would this not seem like my husband is avoiding? And if so, wouldn't this be likely to lead to problems later on?

We have had an amazing relationship, and I want more than anything to protect it for the rest of our lives. So if anyone else sees some truth in SonOfWF's post and has some advice, please let me know.

(My understanding from these boards is that SonOfWF is a therapist??? So I thought I should give it a bit more attention!)

alegna, every person is different in the level of detail they want to receive. Now, almost ALL want to know about the affair, but for some, that is all they need to know. Like SonofWF said, he didn't want those images in his mind. Just knowing that the affair happened was enough for him.

For others, usually women, they need to know more details to be able to put the affair into context and understand the dynamics.

The bottom line is that the level of detail will vary from person to person but I don't think requiring LESS details is necessarily a sign of denial. Itis just how they process it.

I hope SonofWF sees your thread, because he is a very knowledgable counselor and could probably add alot to this.

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Alegna,

I understand your concern about this. I was concerned about the same thing a few months back. Although nothing physical ever happened between me and OM, there was some subtle flirting on e-mail sometimes and I started fantasizing about OM sexually, how it would feel to be in his arms, etc. I felt very guilty about these obsessive thoughts and after the IR was ended, I wanted complete openness and honesty with my H about it, but he never wanted to hear or know all the details. He was (and still is) not interested. Please read the following thread I&#8217;ve send to the In Recovery forum a few months ago. I&#8217;ve received great insight and advice from a few members (especially ForeverHers) and maybe it can give you some clarity and new perspective on your concerns. Please let me know if it could be of any help to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Here is the link: Question regarding openness and honesty in my M

Is what I did considered an affair?!?!?

I've been looking on these boards for so long trying to find someone with a similar experience to mine.

When I hear people talk about wayward spouses, nothing seems to apply to my particular situation.

I feel so guilty. That's mine and my husband's our biggest problem right now. I've tried to understand as much as possible how that could have happened then (THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE: my then boyfriend of four years wasn't making any kind of commitment, and I knew that if he didn't make some plans he would soon be returning to his home in Finland since we were getting close to finishing college. I was scared and insecure and doubting his feelings were as strong as mine. I was insecure and someone else said a lot of nice times when I was vulnerable and very drunk. Also, as I've already posted elsewhere, that year I was struggling dealing for the first time in my life with long-term childhood sexual abuse.)

I also feel guilty for not telling him at the time. At the same time, I feel even more guilt when I don't regret not telling him as I have had a great marriage to the man I love more than anyone else in the world. I know this sounds like the ramblings of a lunatic, but hopefully it makes some sense.

The point is, I'm not cold-hearted and calculating. I never wanted anyone other than E. I did, however, make a terrible mistake that I have always regretted.

My husband says he would have forgiven me at the time anyway -- we had already been through so much (including a year apart during which we were in different countries).

I suppose I just want to hear from someone else who has possibly experienced something like this. I suppose I want what a lot of others on this board are looking for -- the opportunity to talk to someone who's been in this situation.

I am still having problems dealing with this.

The prevailing view among most authors is that getting the truth out is a very helpful in terms of recovery.

But none of them, that I recall, address the issue what if the betrayed spouse doesn't want to know.

So what might be the reasons for not wanting to know.

It would be overly simple to say that is just your betrayed spouse is. He may think that way and may be the rare case where he is so wll adjusted that he really doesn't need to know.

But for most not wanting to know indicates one of the following:

1) Denial....they simply can't accept or won't accept what has happened.

2) Conflict avoidance...they know it happened it hurt like h#ll but if they just avoid dealing with the pink elephant in the living room time will take care of things.

3) Supression....we know discovery an affair is very traumatic. Many BSs are treated for traumatic stress syndrome. Its possible the trauma so rattled him he chose to supress any and everything about he could.

Those are just some educated guesses from an unqualified observer based on what I have read.

If he is in denial, avoidance or supression then yes this could possibly...note possibly because he could work thru these issues alone and you may never know it....create problems down the road. And no so much a blowup I'm leaving you because you had an affair but a hidden resentment about the affair that works its way into many of your future marital issues.

Now why was he comfortable with the pre-marital kiss and not the post marital kiss? Simple like most of his he recognizes the differences between a dating relationship and a marriage.

You see I could sit and comfortable work with my wife on dealing with rape and abuse that occurred before we were married. Including a forced threesome by the guy she was dating just before me. And yes I knew of this guy and had a slight run in with him after she dropped him for me.

But those details occurred to her not to us. He may view your pre-marital thing on the same level.

Sidebar to this issue.

What is your motive in wanting him to know the details?

Not being attacking but perhaps you feel the need for yourself to unload your guilt by telling all. Or perhaps you are subconciously being selfish wanting him to deal with the details using your timetable.

Finally you need to define what details mean to him.

Some want a blow by blow account of everything including intercourse.

Others want factual details like how many times, what positions, what frequency, dates and places. They want the table of contents with all the details but don't want the text part with the blow by blow report on all those details.

Others want bare bone details. Did you love OP? Who was the aggressor in the affair? How far did it go--without numbers, dates, positions etc. When did it start?

So its important to define what you mean by details and what he means by details. You may have told him enough that he feels he has all the detail he needs...ie its enough for him to know you had sex he doesn't need to know how often and in what position. He may feel all he needs to know is when it started and when it ended (if ended without being discovered) but not feel the need to know dates and places.

See what I mean he could in his own mind have all the "details" he needs.

BTW yes you had an affair.

It was at least an emotional affair. At worst an uncompleted physical affair.

It doesn't appear to be anything in depth from what you posted. It wasn't someone you spent months being a friend with then flirted with at a party.

And the other thing about your husband is the shortness of the activity may not feel like an affair to him. One night without intercourse while disturbing isn't the same thing as a soulmate physical affair for a year or more.

Thank you so much for the thread, Suzet.

Part of the guilt I feel though is that I "tricked" my husband when he married me since he didn't know of the kissing episode. And I hate that. But I do know that in six years, it was certainly no reflective of my "normal" behavior.

There are so many thoughts still plaguing me -- I've shared a few on this board. Anyway, thanks for reading and posting.

alegna

Didn't you post you were sexually abused as a child?

Hi SDFC,

I'm not sure if I misunderstood something, but I've not come anywhere close to kissing anyone else other than my husband since we've been married. Eight years ago -- two years before we were married -- I kissed someone else. I mentioned separately that at a party three years ago I flirted with someone, but that was nothing close to kissing or anything. And it wasn't someone I had met before that evening. It was a work pary and I never saw him again. There was nothing private, etc, about it.

The guilt I keep talking about is from the kissing eight years ago.

I'm trying to understand...

(And yes, I have posted regarding sexual abuse)

None of the three reasons you listed for his not wanting to know any details are good. But my H and I have spoken about this several times. To me, he really seems fine. So I can't force it on him. I feel this is a lose-lose situation according to what I'm reading here. I only wanted to be honest because I felt that was the right thing to do, even if a bit late.

Am I misunderstanding something?

Let me get this straight you are racked with guilt because you flirted with a guy while married and you made out once with a guy while in committed relationship with your future husband?

Thats all of the story?

Yes. That's the entire story.

Yes. That's the entire story.

But as I mentioned originally above, SonOfBW said some things that made me feel maybe my husband wasn't really dealing with it. So, that's why I wanted some advice from someone who had possibly been in the same situation.

I'm sorry if I am beating a dead horse.

Okay sit down and take everything I post with a grain of salt but take it anyway:

I am not going to address whether you should or shouldn't feel what you are feeling at this moment.

I do want you to think why you feel so "guilty" "worthless" and perhaps even "dirty" for flirting with a guy.

Why do I use those adjectives? Because they are the feelings of self worth and self loathing childhood sexual abuse victims tend to experience about themselves as adults.

Read the link especially the part about how you view yourself.

http://www.ncptsd.org/facts/specific/fs_child_sexual_abuse.html

Now to what you did......you DID NOTHING on the level to justify this overwhelming amount of guilt and obsessing you are going through.

I mean nothing and that is why your husband doesn't feel like its a big deal. My goodness if he had to account for every woman that turned him on or that he flirted with he might have to write a book. We are sexual beings. We do interact with the other gender in sexual manners without seeking sex. By that we flirt as a way of measuring ourselves in terms of attractiveness. Flirting when not followed by action is often just an effort to get some reassurance that we are attractive.

Your guilt and torment are way out of line with what you did. And its fairly consistent with how sex abuse victims view themselves. You are bad or damaged goods so even the normalest of flirting is "dirty" in your eyes.

Heck I am in my mid 40's when someone flirts with me or flirts back I walk out the room strutting like a rooster saying "the old dog can still hunt!" I am not trying to pick anyone up but myself.

Stop being so hard on yourself. Stop making an emotional mountain out of a molehill.

Do look at why something so simple has made you feel so guilty.

And take care of yourself, your husband and your marriage instead of beating yourself over something so little.

Okay?

((((SDFR)))))

You've been such a source of encouragement to me through this board.

It's the long ago kissing incident that bothers me most. I hate to think that if I would have told him, I might not be where I am today. (He disagrees -- but I think that's because he's so happy with me today!!!)

Either way, I just want you to know that I feel like I know you, and I really appreciate all the time you've taken to post to me. (I've read all about you and your wife and children, and have even seen the photo of you that was posted on the Yahoo photo page someone linked to in a recent post)I hope that doesn't seem creepy! You have a very nice looking family. They are all lucky to have you! I do wish you all the best.

Thanks again. You've been a real blessing.

alegna

alegna

The one blessing that has come from all our suffering (yes ours we both suffered in different but equal ways) is the ability to try and help others understand their own past before it takes them down roads they would not normally go.

Honestly your husband sees it as basically nothing because it was nothing.

It does and should concern him because it pointed out that all marriages are at risk.

But in a way it also assures him that you had a chance to betray him completely and didn't pre-marriage.

And heck its probably a sense of security that you are bothered by a simple flirting episode.

But do let me warn you. You seem to have all the vunerabilities my wife had. That makes you an easy mark for a sexual predator that can tell you were abused. Predators like that know how to make you feel guilty for nothing...something you already do. They know how to get you to agree to secrecy....something you have shown to do when feeling guilty about anything sexual. And once they get you feeling guilty and being secretive they know how put the full court press on you.

Please for you own emotional health deal with these overboard feelings of guilt. Do it for you, your husband and your marriage.

A very nosey and don't answer it to me or this board if it makes you uncomfortable.....how is your sex life and your attitudes toward sex?

Often sexual abuse causes sexual dysfunction in adulthood. That dysfunction results in married couples drifting apart. The drifting apart adds to the abused spouse's sense of inadequacy which in turns further lowers your self esteem. It becomes a vicious cycle until you literally feel worthless.

If this is going on please understand you can be helped get past the negative mental feelings you have toward sexuality with professional help. A healthy normal sexual outlook not only enriches a marriage but in the case of abuse victims helps them be less vunerable to sexual predators.

One more suggestion if I may.........

No more alcohol from this day forward. Seems it just gets you into situations where you can easily compromise your values. God bless and all the best to you!

I recognize that these are all very valid points you have made. And on the positive side, I feel this recent depression (very out of character for me) and soul searching will help me understand my own vulnerabilities better, and lead to my valuing myself more.

Regarding the sex issue, I don't mind answering since I'm doing so anonymously! We do have a healthy sex life and both enjoy each other very much. The only problems we've ever encountered in that department was our second year of marriage when my husband was dealing with some problems with his elderly parents, plus a few other non-marital issues. For almost a year, it was pretty infrequent. I got quite nervous, and began interpreting it his no longer being attracted to me. But this turned out not to be the case at all. However, we did learn from that period. During that year, he didn't communicate very well. Now, if he's feeling stressed an not "in the mood" -- he has learned to just say so. Otherwise my insecure mind starts turning out some scary theories. Again, insecurity at play.

Anyway, sex, with the exception of that one year, has never been a problem. I've never had the problem with associating it with what happened with me so many years ago. For me, it's not only something we do "to feel good" -- it makes me feel so spiritually close to him. And those emotions are nothing I connect to what my uncle would do to me.

So, thanks again. I am searching and learning. I feel it was a real blessing finding this site. I see now, more than ever, what I need to do to protect my own marriage.

I agree with the alcohol suggestion. But that was something I learned for sure a few years ago. I don't drink at all now. And I mean I don't even have a glass with dinner.

My grandfather and half of my Dad's family are alcoholics. I never even tasted alcohol until college. Anyway, my Dad doesn't touch the stuff at all. He always warned us against as he felt there was possibly a genetic factor. Anyway, I'm rambling.

I know people say alcohol doesn't make you do things you don't want to, BUT I do know that if you are not accustomed to it and drink more than you realize is dangerous, it can lead you to act in ways that you would never do otherwise.

So, again, I agree.

I'm writing this particularly to SDFR (hopefully you see it)- However, everyone else is of course welcome to reply as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've been re-reading your posts and I have a couple questions.

One, you mentioned that the make-out episode wasn't that big of a deal. But based on other posts I've read on this site, if, for example, my husband (boyfriend at the time) would have posted on the site for advice, he would have been told to "RUNNNN!!!" because that one episode would have made me bad marriage material.

I knew and know how wrong making out with someone else was. But as I've mentioned, I have tried to understand how and why it happened, what it says about me, etc. I've tried to make the changes to be a better person.

Honestly, though, with the exception of that one occasion, I had always been a loving and supportive girlfriend. We had been together for four years at the time.

But my question specifically involves something I've read on the boards in various places: that cheating before marriage with your partner practically guarantees that it will happen in marriage. This is the very last thing on earth I would want to happen.

I feel I've done all the soul searching, etc., to understand my own vulnerabilities -- why I would betray someone I have truly been in love with since I was 17. I was hugely insecure. And still am. But, I am working on it. (I've always done a bang-up job of looking confident, just haven't managed to actually convince myself...)

I don't want to feel like a marriage that has been really strong is ultimately doomed because of the 8-year old betrayal... because of (what I feel has been implied) my lack of character as shown through the betrayal and my failure to confess at the time. This just can't be true.

What else do I need to do to protect my marriage? I never before considered what happened a reflection on my true character... because I had always hated cheating and never thought I would actually do it myself. When it did happen though, I thought, instead, it was a monumental mistake which I would never repeat. And BTW, I hate it now even more.

Is there something I haven't done (I've tried to list all the things I have done to date) to redeem myself and protect our (mine and my husband's) relationship and future?

I want this feeling of not deserving to go away, as does my husband, but I'm having a hard time losing it.