There are certain things that hold true for most marriages that deal with A's, and that sort of thing needs to be shared - things that have to do with this program... helpful things.

OK, try this exercise:

Imagine your H is sneaking around behind your back with OW. OW knows who you are and occasionally says "Hello" to you.

When you are not aware, OW and your H are performing the most intimate love-making acts with each other and sharing intimate tender feelings.

And, the OW still is able to look you in the eye and say "Hello, how are you?" the day after she has been naked with your H in the shower and soaped his body from one end to the other....

Then one day the A is discovered by you ....

And your chest explodes with hurt as if a hand grenade was thrown into your chest cavity... You can barely stand because of the shock and humiliation...

And you ask the OW "Why? How could you?

and she says .... "I made a mistake."

What would you think of this woman? What would you think of her as a sister woman? What does "I made a mistake" sound like to your ears?

You need a better understanding of what the process is for the betrayed.

A mistake in not exactly right, is it?

We make mistakes all the time .... yours is different.... more than a mistake. It involves judgement, self control and virtue.

My H had an A with his friend's wife.... so I realize the damage this does to your soul.

Don't criticize the pain of the victims. Calling OW in general ugly names sometimes releases the pain for the BW.

You'll just have to tolerate this .... unless it is directed directly TO YOU .... because it is PART OF THE PROCESS .... a part that doesn't feel good to you .... but might very well do the BW some good .... venting and releasing.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You'll just have to tolerate this .... unless it is directed directly TO YOU .... because it is PART OF THE PROCESS .... a part that doesn't feel good to you .... but might very well do the BW some good .... venting and releasing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep, I think you meant that she must choose to understand this "catharsis" if she's going to be around here long with getting too many hurt feelings.

Even as FWS, I think it's entirely reasonable for the BS to view the OP as 'scum of the earth' if it helps them process their pain. God knows, I couldn't blame the OW's H if he thought I was whale poop. It's MY challenge to figure how I'm going to live with that, not his.

In the specific case of a FWS taking comments about the OP on these forums personally, I think it's entirely incumbent on the FWS to manage that.

Low

<small>[ February 27, 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You'll just have to tolerate this .... unless it is directed directly TO YOU .... because it is PART OF THE PROCESS .... a part that doesn't feel good to you .... but might very well do the BW some good .... venting and releasing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep, I think you meant that she must choose to understand this "catharsis" if she's going to be around here long with getting too many hurt feelings.

Even as FWS, I think it's entirely reasonable for the BS to view the OP as 'scum of the earth' if it helps them process their pain. God knows, I couldn't blame the OW's H if he thought I was whale poop. It's MY challenge to figure how I'm going to live with that, not his.

In the specific case of a FWS taking comments about the OP on these personally, I think it's entirely incumbent on the FWS to manage that.

Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mr. Orbit....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You know me well ...

and you are not whale poop...

It's a kind of fine line we walk here ... I can't say that "hurt feelings" means much to me when compared to the self-inflicted damage one does to themselves when they go so far astray from their own good senses.

Learning to tolerate this discomfort is part of becoming whole again.

YOU are certainly a MAN these days!

I do admire you.

Pep (eating egg salad .... Lent food is sooooo boring)

Is eating off the Wendy's Jr. menu an acceptable practice for lent? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

captain's wife - I haven't read all the reponses to your post, but I bet hardly anybody - if even one - defends addressing a posting WS on this forum by name calling. On the other hand, to "practicing" WSs (how much practice does it take? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), words in the form of 2 X 4's are frequently needed and employed. I've done it my self, but name calling isn't a very effective instrument is we're truly interested in helping them.

That said, descriptions on this forum about WSs in the act should not include "scum of the earth." This is reserved for the Hitlers and Husseins of the world.

I usually use the term "pond scum."

I make no apologies for this description. If WSs in the act, potentially destroying marriages and families and committing emotional rape upon their spouses and OP's spouses are NOT pond scum - who possibly could be? Murderers and sexual rapists, I suppose.

BUT - to me and the way I interact with former WSs on this forum - the moment these WSs clear the fog and renounce their behavior, the pond scum also clears.

I am very comfortable with this rationale. All I need to think of to remind me of this is to recall my former friend laying my son in his grave - then laying my grieving wife. "Pond scum" is even too kind.

WAT

I usually use the term "pond scum."

I too prefer pond scum over scum of the earth...

isn't that interesting...

ark

CW
This is a very good post... The posts that bring out the "Big Guns" (those who have posted in the thousands)seem to be the ones that provoke thought as yours has here. Unfortunatly there are those who are almost too bitter to be able to respond in a cival manner, I guess they could be compared to the angry driver who seems to be angry at everyone else on the road and are determined to get "even" with all of the "sinners". I have never been attacked here but I know there have been some instances where I might made some better choices with the words I said. oooo I see we are talking about "pond" scum now 'cuse me while I go get my squeege.
H
But I do understand those that have a need to vent

This has been such a thought provoking subject! And I can fully relate to CW's feelings. When I first sobered up 18 years ago, I was VERY SENSITIVE to remarks made about alcoholics. As time has gone by, however, I find MYSELF agreeing with remarks. I WAS immature. I WAS a self centered, destructive a**hole. I WAS pond scum!

As I have evolved to a healthy mental place over the years, I can accept and admit that I was not a person of very high caliber at one time. Since then I have PROVED my caliber in the way I have confronted my problem and changed myself. It makes me feel wonderful and EMPOWERED to own that truth and accept responsibility for the truth about me. So much more work to deny the truth.

And I see the same thing with WS' when they first come here. They are still fresh out of the adultery mill and the sting of facing the consequences of their behavior is fresh. They are often not entirely honest with themselves yet. As they grow here, though, I have observed that it is usually THEY who become their own harshest critics. The farther they get from their adultery, the less defensive they become.

And it is the same with BS'. When I first came here, I was ENRAGED at all WS and continually referred to them as "low characters" or "low men." But I learned otherwise by staying around here for awhile.

I have observed such honor and decency and courage in the humility and remorse in many of our WS. Some of the greatest examples of character I have ever met here are WS. Because I learned that character is not in being PERFECT, but in how we handle our imperfections. Do we run from them like a coward, or do we face them head on like a big boy? I have met some GIANTS on this forum who bravely faced the consequences of their actions and I KNOW it was not easy. I wonder if I would have been so brave.

<small>[ February 27, 2004, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

JL-
my husband is captainbob. I don't believe that he's posted in a while.

WAT-

[q]I usually use the term "pond scum."

I make no apologies for this description. If WSs in the act, potentially destroying marriages and families and committing emotional rape upon their spouses and OP's spouses are NOT pond scum - who possibly could be? Murderers and sexual rapists, I suppose.[/q]

I will not ask you to apologize. Everyone says and does and feels different things when they are hurt, in extreme pain, etc. I, personally, do not feel that any human being deserves to be called pond scum, scum of the earth, etc. That's my personal opinion. However, if that is what the BS's need to do here, is to be able to voice feelings like that, I won't say anything about it again. I will, from now on, remember where my place is here.

Pep-
yes, I am an adulteress. I was a liar and a cheater. What I did was much much more than "a mistake"... it was so much more that I don't really know the word for it. That is why I am struggling so hard with forgiving myself.
I, however, feel just the opposite of you, and many of the others here. It has been said that name calling should be tolerated because it is not directed at me in particular, and phrases like "scum of the earth" are over the top, so should be ignored. In my mind, generalizations are worse than singling out one individual. That means that it DOES include me, whether I deserve it or not.
I can handle being told the truth. It hurts to face the truth of my being an adulteress, yes... it hurts very badly... but it is truth, and I will accept it and face it. I have difficulty accepting being called lower than a human being... lower than an animal (scum). I WILL accept it, though. I will accept that people believe that it is alright to say these things about other human beings. I will accept that some people here are hurting so badly that they say things that are very hurtful and (in my opinion) undeserved. I will look past it and look for the things that are helpful.
As painful as it is, yes, it is good for me to see things from my husband's perspective... from the BS's perspective.

CW

CW,

You are missing something here and it is VERY important. You cannot describe what you feel you did. I was not a MISTAKE, it was worse, but you cannot put a name to it. But as human's if we cannot voice or name something we really struggle as you no doubt know. But, once something can be named, discussed, thought about, visualized, then we can handle it.

WAT thinks of his OM as Pond Scum. Do you know why? Permit me to explain a bit of his history. The OM and his W used to be WAT's and his W's best friends. WAT and his W had a son, who had cancer and after years of struggle this poor child died of the cancer. OM was the poll bearer, helped place this child in the ground, AND then ran off with WAT's W.

What do you call a man like that? A man who would run off with another man's W as this man was in the deepest dispair of his life over the lose of his child? What DO YOU CALL HIM. I really don't have a vocabulary (or spelling skills apparently) to describe such a person. It seem neither does WAT. But, he knows this man is not human in any way a human would be proud to be. He knows that he is beneath contempt, that he apparently has no emotions save those that he seeks for his gratifaction soo....he is POND SCUM.

Sort of puts a nice visual on it, allows WAT to describe to you or anyone else what he really cannot tell you. But, you do get the idea he doesn't think much of him. I could go into a discourse about how biologically pond scum is useful, but the point is that Pond Scum is NOT useful to WAT. He is dangerous, repulsive, and represents a level of loss and pain he cannot otherwise describe.

So IF you choose to wear such a title that is fine, but it is NOT really yours to wear. It is WAT's title to bestow on a man that helped bury his son, and then took his W.

What you fail to realize is that what you take to be a generalization is in fact, a very specific term used by some individuals here to express what they cannot really express about a person in their lives that hurt them deeply. You can wear it if you want, but it is NOT YOURS TO WEAR. It really is their personal H**L they are trying to describe.

If you could come of with a glossary of terms to help them describe what they cannot, then I am sure they would use them.

So before you claim further victimhood, remember you are claiming something that is NOT yours to claim.

Please think about that.

God Bless,

JL

as always... excellent post JL. thanks.

posted by MelodyLane:
"I have met some GIANTS on this forum who bravely faced the consequences of their actions and I KNOW it was not easy. I wonder if I would have been so brave. "

Melody~ I sooooo agree.

My heros are often the FWW or FWH who rise above ~~~~ and soar the heavens of enlightenment.

I so admire the individual's internal struggle between good and evil.

And want to talk about "brave" .... the sinner who admits the entirety of his/her sins ..... and takes all the consequences .... what bravery!

It's one of the things I SO ADMIRE about MY husband!!! A former "scum of the earth" and immature alcoholic who has risen above and is an awesome sexy wonderful man now.

I love him. He accepted his consequences and became a better man for it.

He is no longer scum .... he's the cream in my coffee. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ML .... you and I make good sisters for each other.

Pep

<small>[ February 28, 2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>

ML .... you and I make good sisters for each other.

Pep[/b] </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I can't comment on any OP in this forum, but I can say that I have a name for the OM who cheated on his wife, betrayed my friendship, violated the promise he made at my marriage, and had sex with my wife.

I call him VultureMan. May he eat the diseased flesh of dead rotting animals for the remainder of his miserable life.

Hi Captain's Wife,

1st of all, I want to say welcome and I'm sorry you need to be here.

I, like you, am a FWW. I must defend posters here who are BS's. I have started a thread or 2 and posted on another's thread where I was just venting and I have to say that no one has ever blasted me. Or at least I didn't feel like they had. H and I had TONS of problems pre-affair and I sure didn't help. However, the one thing I gave up by making the decision I did was working on those problems. I have, once again, shot myself in the foot, so to speak. Anyway, since H and I cannot work on those other things, I have come here to vent. I have been supported. I don't neccessarily (sp) aree with EVERYTHING everyone says but I at least see another point of view. And in some cases it helps me understand H's way of looking at things.

I did a lot of reading here before I ever posted and a lot of reading in between posts.


So in conclusion, stay here. Listen. Don't beat yourself up. Forgive yourself. Get healthy.

To all others,

I am sorry for everyone's pain. Sometimes this world really sucks. God bless you all.


I'm precious

<small>[ February 29, 2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: i'm precious ]</small>

posted by i'm precious:
"I hope I don't kill your thread. For some reason when I post on a thread it seems to be the "kiss of death". No one ever posts on it again. "

Ta Da! .... finish of thread-ending curse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"There are a lot of things I would sometimes like to say, but know that I would get crucified."

I just saw The Passion Of The Christ....

You are not crucified .... not even close.

Hyperbole ....

You may get yelled at , verbally throttled on a message board.... How can that actually hurt you in any real way? Your "feelings" get brused .... hardly a crucifiction.

I am sure you are healing as best you can at any given moment.

I believe the person who get hurts the worst is the one who hurts herself.

How can you ever forgive yourself ? .... by hard work , tincture of time, and living a wonderful life.

Faith
Hope
Love

You are The Precious .... yes you are.

Pep

Precious-
interesting that you should say that you're the kiss of death to threads around here... I seem to have the same effect unless everyone is angry at me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
*hug* thank you for your encouragement... I will keep reading... I will always keep reading here, because I find a great deal of wisdom here.
Thank you for sharing your story, as well. I don't know that I'll ever share my story... I don't think that I have enough courage for that. I'm way too sensitive. I wouldn't be able to handle what would probably be thrown at me.
I love your name... it fits you very well. You are very precious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
CW

double double

<small>[ February 29, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepperband,

I am so sorry!

I'm precious

<small>[ February 29, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: i'm precious ]</small>

This is the Captain speaking.
My wife is not "pond scum","scum of the earth", or any other name that some seem to be calling all WS.

The pain I felt after my wife told me about her affairs was unreal. I couldn't sleep, I just broke out crying at times (I had to stop taking the vanpool to work because I didn't want to suddenly end up crying infront of them.)
You all know what I went thru, so I won't go on.

Thankfully we found this site and were able to attend the seminar in January, and have had some good counseling since. My wife wanted to restore our marriage, I have forgiven her and accepted my responsibilities for not meeting her needs, and we are on our way. Of course the story is more complicated than that,as most are, but that could be another post.

Some things I am positive about:

1. W has shown a genuine remorse about her
infidelity. She has taken various steps to prevent contact.

2. She and I are doing the weekly assignments.

3. We are spending the 15 hours/week together.

4. We have joined the YMCA and go there 3 times per week.

5. I am making the changes in my behavior, and
her love for me is growing and mine for her is also growing.

6. We both see the value in going thru the hard
work ahead. We are following Dr. Harley's program and it seems to be working.

I realize it has only been about 4 weeks since the real "NC", but she is really trying.