IP,

I thought I would respond to some of your questions.

You asked and said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Second of all, why is it that the only marriage vow that people think is important is this one. I thought there were others. I guess I must be delusional just like OM says. Or is it just that it's the only one that's important? Please don't get mad and start railing on me. I am asking sincerely. I would like a sincere answer. It seems that, for the most part, all other hurts are diminished around here, as if they are unimportant. [Teary]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, first it is considered the BIGGIE for a couple of reasons. First, it is the method by which children are produced and people (especially men since unitl just recently they never knew for sure if a child was their's) view having children as one of the more special things about a marriage.
Second, it is the ONE need that NO ONE else is supposed to meet. People can have other needs met by family and friends to some degree, but sex is NOT one of them.

Now to your question: is it the only one. No you are absolutely right it is NOT. In fact that is why Harley has many needs and asks for people to list the top 5, which means that sex is there BUT...there are others. You are also correct that lack of respect, loyalty, etc can run a marriage as well.

But, it this ONE vow is focused on because it is so personal and it is truely only to be shared with your spouse.

Does this help? Hope so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love my H. However, I have learned that love doesn't conquer all. If it did, very few people would get divorced. We both screwed up. My screw up, unfortunately, was the worst. But does that now give H a license to do and say anything he wants? Do I no longer have ANY rights?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's the deal as I see it IP. You need to set your boundaries with your H as to how you will be treated. He can get angry, he can pout, but he should not have a licence to do anything he wants. It is up to you to respect yourself enough to demand respect from him. You have as many RIGHTS as you had before the A. You need to exercise them, however, you do have a very hurt spouse on your hands so exercise them carefully. But do exercise them. By the way, rights and independent behavior are often confused, but they are NOT the same. So think about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know I have no right to choose if we save our marriage. I gave that up. [Frown]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXCUSE ME! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You have every right to save your marriage, in fact it will not be saved IF you don't try and save it. You did NOT give up the right to try and save your marriage. You are obligated to do this IF you have any love for your H and respect for yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my mind is warped. While I understand that what I did is the worst thing that I could do to H, it is NOT the worst thing he could do to me. But no one will discuss that with me because that would imply that I'm making excuses for myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I think is due to your abuse as a child. You do NOT value something that has brought you such pain in the past. So it is an important topic and it is one that Stunned Dad has been harping on you for awhile. YOu must address the reason this is NOT the worst thing for you. You must learn to see things from your H's perspective, BUT that won't happen without good counseling. By the way, he needs to see the world from your point of view as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually wish H had been the one to have an A. It just wouldn't have done to me what it has done to him. My innocence was stolen a long time ago. [Mad] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but because it was stolen a long time ago, it also means that your participation in this marriage needs to be seriously considered before the A, during the A, and after the A. You see, you are of value, you have many things of value to offer your H, but it is very important that you value yourself and what you offer. THEN the gift you give him is that much more important. Do you see what I am talking about?

I am conversing with KiwiJ on a similar topic. She has no remorse for her H. She feels that the affair was really OK, it was "unfinished business". She is struggling with this, because she is still in the fog, and she is not far enough out of it to see things clearly.

You may be in a similar situation, but the experiences of your past are playing a huge roll in what you are feeling and what you are NOT feeling. Please see a good counselor.

IP, I have a child in school that is not doing very well right now. So my W and I, the counselors, the teachers, are exploring what the real problem is. If it is just the usual teenage messing around, he is going to be walking. HOWEVER, if it is his learning disabilities coming forward, then grounding him will not help. Punishment will not encourage. So the issue is to identify the problem and then address it appropriately.

You and your H need to be doing the same thing. Punishment may feel good, but it may not be warrented at all. IN fact, encouragement, love, patience, and good counseling may well be what is required. This is hard for the BS to see sometimes, but that is why you have the plans here. They give people the time they need to see the full problem and then address it with an eye toward succeeding in rebuilding the marriage, if BOTH parties decide to.

So please don't think people are not interested in hear your "reasons" for what you did. They are. The reason does not excuse the behavior, but it allows one to see how to address the consequences of the behavior and that is what the BS really wants to do. So keep communicating with your H, discussing things, and get some good counseling.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ March 02, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Keepmvn and HW-

Thank you both! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You made my day! I'll try to look forward to my new goals rather than dreading the work ahead. Yup - I definitely like the goals concept much better!

IP-
you didn't hijack my thread! LOL you just shared your opinions and concerns and experience! That's what it's all about. :-)
Keep moving forward... I can feel the strength inside of you... not to mention - we're all here for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

CW

JL,

Thank you for replying. I appreciate it. Before I make my comments I want to ask a favor of you. Will you go to In Recovery and respond to the thread titled. Young couple trying hard to make it? I have responded to her a couple of times but she needs an "old timer's" advice.

I understand what you say to a point about your S being the only one who can meet that need.I know that's the way it's supposed to be. However, everyone here also agrees that EA's happen. How is that if SF is the only EN that is be filled only by a spouse. If H had an EA, I would be more than upset. No one can steal that from a person. It has to be given. Actually, H did have an EA. It just wasn't with a person. It was with a piece of ground and a community. I know most people here don't understand that one, but it's true. It hurt.

Now to explain something I said. When I said I don't have a right to save my marriage, I didn't do a very good job of getting accross what I meant. I know for my marriage to be saved I need to work harder than I've ever worked in my life. However, H has a right to make the final decision because of what I did. If he says he can't do it then I have to live with that. Am I making more sense. It's just like everyone here tells people all the time. Before you can really work on your M your spouse muct know about the A so that they can make an informed decision about whether or not they want to stay married.

ANyway, thatnks again for listening and answering my questions. I think you understand that I'm not being snotty or trying to make excuses for myself. I appreciate your help.

I'm precious

Me (WS) 43
H (BS) 46
M 13 years
Kids (his, mine, and ours) S-24, S-22, S-21, D-20, S-12
EA/PA lasted 6 weeks
D-day 6/24/2003 and glad of it
OM was 12 year old son's psychiatrist who offered to do MC for H and me after A started

IP,

Yes, your H has the right to end the marriage, but so do you really. In fact, Harley suggests that even a divorce should be a POJA topic. Isn't that an interesting comment? And quite a concept.

AS for EN's and who should meet them, you are I think suggesting something that is at the core of this site. WORKING on your marriage. Most people wouldn't think a passion for a project, or a sport, hobby, whatever as being an affair. So they often don't see the harm it does when it takes away from the effort being put into the marriage. But it obviously does harm.

Most here know that. That is why there is a needs questionaire, why most ask the BS "what needs have you NOT been meeting?" when they first post here.

But, IP the PA part of an affair is soooo physical, so personal, so obviously wrong (you could argue devoting all of your time to church work could NOT be wrong, although it may harm the marriage), that it is a major focus point.

But, you are right. Things are generally more complex than that, and further that is why people discuss the A being 100% the decision and fault of the WS, but the state of the marriage before the A, is often the creation of the BS's neglect.

So, once again, please hang in there, and speak up to your H about what is bothering you, what you need help with, and how you need him to help YOU. You do have a voice, you are entitled to use it, and frankly I think you must use it. The only discussion is how to most effectively use it.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

captains wife...I read your thread and I too have been hit with that 2 x 4 a couple of times <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> to the point where I have literally sat here and cried over what some stranger communicated to me. Someone who knows nothing about me but because of my WS status, stereotyped me into one "scum of the earth" basket! I have my biggest problem at work. Unfortunately my A took place there and once word got out it spread like wildfire. I know that I basically am reaping what I have sown, but some comments that have been made to me by other men are so hurtful. One's who I have worked with for 15 years or so. It's as if I have slut tattooed to my forehead or something. No one knows the hell that I have put myself through over this thing. I'm not overlooking, by any means, what I've put my H through, please do not misunderstand. I had been married for 23 years at the start of my A and my husband was the only man with whom I had been intimate with. I wasn't looking for an A but was obviously in need of many things to have been stupid enough to have allowed myself to preyed upon by a charming individual who knew how to play me!! I came out of the A with no self esteem and wondering "what was I thinking" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> !! God knows my heart and as one MB member told me once, God doesn't have any daughters that are sluts. I'm so glad that he looks beyond my behavior and sees my heart. I will say that it's amazing how humbling these situations can be. I, too, used to wonder how anyone would ever allow themselves to get involved in an affair!!!! And if they did slip up once, how could they ever continue an affair and still remain married and live a double life. Well, I guess God has a way of taking these little judgemental attitudes out of you!!