<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

SG....I wanted to share you with you and the rest here about my experience in church yesterday. We started a revival with this wonderful couple who have been in full time evangelism for 39 years. Well, his message was about "getting to Jesus", even when we have to push our way through. He used different illustrations from the bible. He made the point about how we look everywhere, to everyone without before we determine the right place to go. Well, several people went up for prayer at the end of the service. My H and I are in the balcony and I'm debating with myself about whether or not I should go. I thought, well I could just go home and pray...Well, I decided to go down. When he was praying for me, God was showing this man what i had need of. I wish that I had had a tape recorder to repeat it word for word. But he was telling me that I had been going down this same dark road for too long, that it was time to let it go. The hurt that I carry, God wants to take it from me if I will just give it to him. He kept telling me that it's time to let it go!! He knows how I've hurt and he wants to heal that hurt but I have to be willing to give it to him.

I have to tell you, when I left from there, I was very much in awe of what I had experienced. God does hear us and he does care, even when we feel so absolutely unworthy and ashamed from what we have done. He is there and his love is unconditional. I thank God for using this man to remind me!!

this was such a precious experience to me that I have not shared it with anyone except her on MB. We all need to be reminded that he knows our situations and that he is well able to bring that healing that we all need if we will just give it to him. That giving part is hard!!

Pepperband- It must be nice to be perfect and without sin. I don't mean to sound harsh here because I know that you have helped many but what was your purpose of saying to Sarie that she could never be your friend? Yes, we are WS's and we made HORRIBLE choices but does that give you the right to judge us and to condemn us? I think the mere fact that we are here talking about our feelings and trying to heal says alot about our character and our willingness to change. But, with posts like yours, what does that say about your character? Like I said, I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but your posts always come across with a bit of an arrogance to them that you feel you're better than most. Adultery is a sin but so is Pride, maybe you should understand that you're not the one to judge us, only Jesus is.

((Chris))- I'm sorry that you had that dream. You know, I hate those dreams because they always bring me down, way down. When I wake up they feel so real and they have the ability to ruin my whole day and it's hard to recover from it. I was thinking about the question that Sarie asked you about why it's so hard for you to see OW with another man when you've been having sex with your wife all along. I guess it's the same for me- I hate thinking of the notion of OM with his W even though I've been with my H all along. I think the reason it's so hard is because we know what we're thinking and feeling. We're inside our own brains and hearts and can feel exactly what's going on inside there and we know that even though we're with our Spouses that we still think of the OP and miss them. When we think of OP with their new partner, we don't know what's going on in their hearts and minds and we just assume that everything is good and wonderful in their world and that they've moved on and forgotten all about us. That leaves us feeling very lonely and very sad, even though we are with our S. What we need to do is get to the point of indifference where OP is concerned. We need to focus on our S and focus on how good our lives are and NOT focus on how things might be for OP. We have to stop doing this because it's hindering our recovery and it's causing alot more heartache then we need. I know this is easier said than done but just keep saying "That is not my concern anymore" everytime a thought like that pops into your head and time will bring healing.

You sound like you have a lot going for you Chris. You have a wonderful W and kids and a prominent position at your job. Just keep reminding yourself of these things, of how much you do have and don't focus on what you've lost with OW. I keep telling myself that it wouldn't have worked out with OM and that I am so much better off now than I would have been with him. I tell myself that he is the one that is missing out with not having me in his life and that it is MY decision to continue living my life WITHOUT him in it. Maybe you're having a little bit harder time because you feel like you were the one rejected? Who intially broke off the A? I think if you were the one to do the breaking up you have a little bit easier time because you feel like it was your decision, as opposed to being the one that was "dumped" and feeling like you were rejected and left behind.

Just keep praying and keep your head held high. You've got alot going for you and alot of people who think pretty highly of you to continue to stand by your side. Focus on these things and try to keep OW as far out of your mind as possible. Keep thinking positive thoughts!

Lisa- That was quite an experience you had this weekend. It must have been comforting to know that Jesus really does know what you're going through and that He really does want to help you through this. It's nice to be reminded like that of just how real Jesus is.

I hope that your experience has given you new found strength and peace in your recovery. We're all pulling for you and praying for that new job so you can put this behind you for good.

SG

Originally posted by chris37:

For you to make judgements is wrong.

I said I could not have her as my friend .... she does not meet my requirements. I need to trust my friends to be truthful with me.

I may not judge Sarie's soul. This is true.

I may judge the appropriateness of a trusting friendship with anyone. Including Sarie.

I may judge it inappropriate to trust certain people with my children.

I make judgements all the time, and so do you. To say "to make judgements is wrong" .... is wrong.

We decide who we let into our inner circle, by judging their qualities as safe or unsafe.

I need friends that I know won't lie to me. For me, a true trusting friendship with a woman who is comfortable lying to her husband for more than a decade ... is not possible.

I initially said this to Sarie in order to make her think .... about her values, and her ethics. And that lying comes with a price. people do not trust liars. Nor should they.

Sarie has qualities that make her nice, sweet, and fun, I am sure. She is a good grand-ma. Sarie is also someone who could, would and did promote a horrible lie to have her needs met. She shows no visable regret for the affair. Only regret that the affair ended. She would have loved to remain in her affair for the rest of her life.

She has not admitted her lying was wrong. This makes her dangerous FOR ME.

She may be perfectly acceptable to you as a trusted friend, but not FOR ME.

SHE WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE AS A FRIEND if she disavowed the years of lying as wrong, instead of posting how wonderful her affair was.... such an insult to her husband. An insult to marriage it's self.

I have no regrets for speaking the truth. Sarie has no regrets for speaking lies to her beloved husband for years and years.

There is no animosity for her in my heart. Just mistrust based on her inability to accept that her affair was wrong, from beginning to end. Morally wrong to lie to her husband for 12 years.

Pep

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Originally posted by stupidgirl:
Pepperband- It must be nice to be perfect and without sin.

I wouldn't know what that is like! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't mean to sound harsh here because I know that you have helped many but what was your purpose of saying to Sarie that she could never be your friend?

I already explained that on a previous post.

I wouldn't have come to your thread had not Sarie posted the reference about me. I would prefer this : if she is going to talk about what I said to her she do it honestly, saying my name.

Yes, we are WS's and we made HORRIBLE choices but does that give you the right to judge us and to condemn us?

I did neither of these things. I did not judge you, nor did I condem you.

I stated one of MY truths. I require more truthfulness in those I trust to be a friend.

If Sarie wants to be my bank teller, she better not have a criminal record of theft .... that would make her inappropriate to be a bank teller.

If I make a personal requirement that my friends not be keeping an on-going lie to their spouse as a requirement for my personal friendship .... I have that right.

The day I wrote that to Sarie, she was STILL lying to her husband, had vowed to NEVER tell him, and had also committed to keeping the OM in her life as much as he would allow her to ..... even after he married the woman he was engaged to.

My friendship to such a woman at such a time would be false. i had no reason to trust her, and that was the purpose of my statement. She was living a lie, a false promise, and she could not see her way out of her lie.

I think the mere fact that we are here talking about our feelings and trying to heal says alot about our character and our willingness to change.

I think talking about feelings is just fine.

I also think that discussions about ethics, honor, principles are important to recovery after affairs.

Just discussing feelings is not enough.

But, with posts like yours, what does that say about your character?

My character is harsh when it comes to lies. I think that's what it says.

You tell me..... what does it say to you about me?

Like I said, I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but your posts always come across with a bit of an arrogance to them that you feel you're better than most.

Yes, I know. Thank you for pointing it out. I agree with your assessment.

Adultery is a sin but so is Pride, maybe you should understand that you're not the one to judge us, only Jesus is.

Yes, I am not judging your soul. Jesus is.

I am making a judgement about lies and how much immorality I can welcome into my inner circle .... because it may be a detriment to my own morals.

FYI .... I am married to a man who is a sinner. I ADORE him. And I admire his recovery. He disavows his lying and adultery. He is an awesome leader for our family. He is my HERO.

It's not the adultery that irks me so much .... it's the acceptance of such a low-effort lie to maintain a marriage desperately in need of truth.

And yes, pridefulness is my most obnoxious sin. Again, that you for pointing this out to me. It is always good to be reminded.

Pep

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chris37:
[QB] Pep
Quote: "To me, people who lie to their own family present themselves as dangerous and unethical friends"

Not to carry this negitive post too far, but look at what you wrote: You are Judgeing that just because someone lies they are dangerous and unethical friends.

FOR ME .... yes, they are. I own this .... this is what works for me.

You must be the only one in the world that has never told a lie.

I have told many lies.

And all of your friends have never told lies, Ahhh to be perfect...must be nice.

Perfection is not the issue.

12 years of lying is the issue.

It is not acceptable TO ME.

I don't know your story but by your tone, I would assume you are a BS.
Hmmmm....

Right. 8 years recovered.

Lying doesn't help recovery, and it is no good for marriage. Weaving a habitual lie into the fabric of any marriage is just not healthy ....

in MY opinion.

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper, you did not respond to this:

"Pepper, your best friend, your Sunday School teacher, your co-worker that you eat lunch with everyday, your sister, your mother could be cheating on their husbands!

YOU JUST DON'T KNOW, you CAN'T know, so to say you could not be friends with a person that has been unfaithful and untruthful to their spouse, could be sitting beside you right this very minute, being your very good friend!
Sincerely, Sarah "

Pep-

Again, as Chris said, not to carry this post so far but I don't think you understand how you come across sometimes. It's not that you don't have the right to choose who your friends are and aren't- you DO have that right. But, you're saying that just because of this mistake she has made, that makes her "dirty" unworthy of your friendship. Again, that's your choice, but I have to wonder how you ever got around to forgiving your H when he has done the same thing. Doesn't that make him "beneath" you and unworthy of being your H or your children's father? I would suspect that his A would make him a bad role model for you and your kids, right? So, why could you forgive him but you have such a hard time forgiving others? You said that you're married to a sinner, well I need to say that your H is also married to a sinner. We are all sinners.

I know that you know it's not your place to judge us, but don't you also know that Jesus's message is to forgive and to love your neighbor? That doesn't mean deeming them undeserving of your friendship or of love, does it? It means, forgive them, It's not your place to judge. I understand why you are so bitter or untrusting of people- you've been hurt badly and by someone you trusted with all your heart. But that doesn't mean that we're all bad people. Don't you think that if Jesus thought the way you did that none of us would be able to enter Heaven? He would have never died on the cross for us, he would have never deemed any of us worthy.

All I'm saying Pep is that you have the right to choose your friends, but don't openly condemn people because of their mistakes. You may think that certain people are unworthy of friendship, but it's not up to you to broadcast your opinion all over the place and influence other's decisions based upon your biases. We are all good people and some of us made awful mistakes. But, we are repentent and asking for forgivness. Maybe if we all followed Jesus' example and loved our neighbors this would be a much better world to live in.

Just my 2 cents.....

SG

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Chris- I think you are absolutely right. I think we need to dwell on our S instead of the OP. I think that the more we do for our S, the more in love we are going to feel with them and less with the OP. Thanks for the book title, I am going to go to the website after posting this.
Another book that I bought that will help us to DO things for our S is called "101 Nights of Great Romance" by Laura Corn. It is a collection of romantic ideas that each of you pick out (1 each per week) and do for each other. It has some ideas that are free, some that are cheap and some that are more expensive. My H and I have done one each so far and it was alot of fun. It definately makes you become active in your romance towards your S.
I think you're going to have alot of fun on your cruise!! When will you be going?

SG

Originally posted by Sarie:
Pepper, you did not respond to this:

Sorry Sarie, I thought you wanted me to ignore you.

"Pepper, your best friend, your Sunday School teacher, your co-worker that you eat lunch with everyday, your sister, your mother could be cheating on their husbands! "

With the absolute exception of my dying Mother, I agree.

What's your point?


YOU JUST DON'T KNOW, you CAN'T know, so to say you could not be friends with a person that has been unfaithful and untruthful to their spouse, could be sitting beside you right this very minute, being your very good friend!
Sincerely, Sarah

But Sarie, that's NOT what I said!

At the time I wrote to you :

~that you and I could not be friends ~

*you were insisting
*you would take this secret to your grave,
*and you were only sorry you couldn't continue the affair

I found (?find?) that an offensive credo to live by. One I could not possibly cosy up to.

People do bad things, then they stop and correct their ways.

Me and you and everyone else.

You and I have a profound philosoplical disagreement.

If your infidelity and/or your commitment to live your entire marriage in a lie are in your past ... Praise the Lord!

I am not talking about your manners, or the fact that you are pretty, or your charming personality ....

No

I would love to find out what PRINCIPLES drive your life.

You cannot claim to be respectful of honesty in relationships while you are currently telling a big old whopper-lie in your marriage.

It's not YOU so much as your professed commitment to keep the lie alive.

You may have confessed by now, I don't follow your story much.

So, yes, infidelity is unfortunately all around us. And those who survive are those who turn away and live by truthful principles.

But, I don't imagine you agree with me, and that's OK.

Pep

Originally posted by stupidgirl:


Again, as Chris said, not to carry this post so far but I don't think you understand how you come across sometimes.

Sure I do. Arrogant and know-it-all.... I do realize.

It's not that you don't have the right to choose who your friends are and aren't- you DO have that right.

Thanks.

But, you're saying that just because of this mistake she has made, that makes her "dirty" unworthy of your friendship.

No fair putting words in my mouth.. I never said "dirty" ... did I?

"Unworthy" did not pass my lips either, did it?

I said I would not trust her.

I can argue my points with you, based on principles, but it becomes too difficult if you put words into my mouth that I did not say.

Her values are (were) too far from mine.

If you want to critique my style, I'm OK with that. But, I would prefer to discuss values and principles....

Are your values very different from mine? Do you value honesty as a cornerstone of real friendship?


Again, that's your choice, but I have to wonder how you ever got around to forgiving your H when he has done the same thing.

He stopped. He didn't begin again, ever. He grew into a trustworthy Man of high integrity. He is honest and lives by his code of ethics. He was easy to forgive.

Doesn't that make him "beneath" you and unworthy of being your H or your children's father?

He sure was during his affair! After, no.

Putting the quotes around "beneath" is another attempt to put words in my mouth that I did not say, please stop doing this. Thanks.

I would suspect that his A would make him a bad role model for you and your kids, right?

During his A it sure did.

Do you think otherwise? Is cheating ever a good role model for parents to play, in your opinion?

So, why could you forgive him but you have such a hard time forgiving others?

Who do you think I need to forgive? I don't know what you mean here?

You said that you're married to a sinner, well I need to say that your H is also married to a sinner. We are all sinners.

Amen

I know that you know it's not your place to judge us, but don't you also know that Jesus's message is to forgive and to love your neighbor?

Yes

That doesn't mean deeming them undeserving of your friendship or of love, does it?

Do you forgive unrepentant sinners in your life? Do you hold them near to your breast? Tell them your secrets? Trust them with your life?

Is that one of your guiding principles?

Or do you forgive repentant sinners?

It means, forgive them, It's not your place to judge.

I can judge who is safe for me to give my friendship to.

That is my responsibility as a matter of fact.

If I hang out with and trust drug addicts with my wallet, I am a fool. We have to be careful who we trust .

I understand why you are so bitter or untrusting of people- you've been hurt badly and by someone you trusted with all your heart.

This is simply not true.

I am careful.

I am not bitter.

I am intollerant .... I think that may be a better term for what you mean about me. But really, is my personality as important as all that?

Aren't we discussing principles about marriage here?

But that doesn't mean that we're all bad people.

You are not all bad people. What confounds me sometimes is the insistance to put words in my mouth "Bad people" .... I did not say this.

Don't you think that if Jesus thought the way you did that none of us would be able to enter Heaven? He would have never died on the cross for us, he would have never deemed any of us worthy.

None of us are worthy.

All I'm saying Pep is that you have the right to choose your friends, but don't openly condemn people because of their mistakes.

I am not "condeming" a person .... Words into my mouth again. Please don't do this.

I have (had) a problem with her principles about marriage. She was espousing that making a committed lie would be good for her marriage. A point I argue with.

If I condem anything, it is her principle that a lie is good for her marriage.

She may have changed, I don't know. My original comment to Sarie was on a thread about 3 months ago, or so.

You may think that certain people are unworthy of friendship, but it's not up to you to broadcast your opinion all over the place and influence other's decisions based upon your biases.

Sarie brought this broadcast of opinion back up, I was content to let it rest.

We are all good people and some of us made awful mistakes.

Good people. Some of us may not be. How do you know? How can you tell? Is everyone in the world your friend?

But, we are repentent and asking for forgivness. Maybe if we all followed Jesus' example and loved our neighbors this would be a much better world to live in.

Just my 2 cents.....

Thank you for your opinions.

Pep

SG [/QB][/QUOTE]

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

all,

i am not sure if everyone is understanding pepper's point. she is not against choosing as a friend someone who has had an A. She is against choosing as a friend someone that has had an A and has not choosen to tell the BS about it. Of course she may very well have a friend that is having or had an A and never confessed, but her point is that she would not choose to have a friendship with a person that she knows has had an A and has not confessed to their S because in her opinion that person is capable of keeping a lie alive. She has no problem forgiving and getting past an A that is over and has been confessed about. To her, an A is not truely over if the person has not repented which to her includes confessing.

This is her opinion and the opinion of many others. It is certainly a valid opinion. Others have the opposite opinion, which is certainly a valid opinion to have too, that is why it is called an opinion.

Now, in my opinion, we should let this part of the conversation die down as I don't see it being productive at all.

Ya'll,

I don't think most of you appreciate something. Pep is trying to tell you something and you are not listening. You are defending against what she did NOT say, but ignoring something very important that she IS saying.

She is NOT judging you, but she is telling you what it is going to take to recover your marriages. What it is going to take to make your spouses whole again.

She is telling you that focusing on what you lost with OP, while lying to your spouse is NOT going to recover your marriage. She is telling you what many BS's have posted here over the years that the infidelity is very hard to get over, but the lies, the dishonesty is the very HARDEST thing to get over. She is telling you, that your spouses love for you will NOT overcome their distrust without YOU helping them. She is telling you that it is NOT a condemnation to not trust someone, but an act of self-preservation. She is telling you that your spouses have been severely damaged, and without your help the ONLY act of self-preservation that can help them is to NOT be friends with you, although they may love you.

You all have been busy putting words in her mouth as she as patiently kept pointing out, but you have not been listening to why she is posting to you. It is to help you address what you will need to address IF you want to rebuild and restore your marriage.

Sarie, I have yet to see you post anything to do with your H, that was NOT focused on you. I have yet to see you post anything that indicates that you really are willing to work on the marriage. You just plan on accepting H's forgiveness and pretending that he is ALL BETTER NOW. He is not, your marriage is not, and your posts indicate that your focus is still on the OM and what you lost, not what you should have lost.

You all need to step back just a second and reread what Pepper wrote, and realize she did not write it to help her, or justify her marriage. She wrote it to help you. So quit defending yourself, and start acting in a manner that EVEN Pepper would admire. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Your spouses will face the A, the images, the betrayal as they must, but ONLY you can help them learn to trust again.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Finally Learning-
I agree that this post is not productive and, in fact, is rather hurtful. Pep may have a problem with Sarie because she has chosen not to tell her H about the A but that's not for us to judge. But I have to say that I have read other posts by Pep to other WS's who have told their spouses and she isn't any more sympathetic or any less offensive to those WS's. I understand that she's trying to help (I think) but the way she comes across is very demeaning and hurtful sometimes.

Pep- I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth. When I said the things that you said I was putting into your mouth, I was using words that describe how you make us feel. The tone of your posts make us feel "beneath" you and "unworthy" to be in your presence. I'm not saying that you said those things but that is the message that you're presenting to us. As I said earlier, you have every right to choose who you do and don't trust but I don't think you only have a problem with those WS's who have chosen not to tell their BS's; I think that you have a hard time trusting anyone (repentent or not, guilty of a "crime" or not).

Like I said, I know that you have helped many here and that's very nice of you. But, some people come here because they don't know where else to turn and they're genuinely looking for help. When you come across as so hard and uncaring it can be very intimidating to some. Just remember, we are all sinners. We have all done bad things in our life times. It just seems as if your message is more of self righteousness than anything else sometimes.

I'm sorry that this post took the nasty turn that it did, it's meant to be a place to help people, not hurt them. Can we all just be kind and accepting of one another and just realize that if we do this together we can get alot further on our journeys?

SG

JL- Sorry, we must have been posting at the same time. I can understand what you're saying and also what Pep's saying. My only point was that it's not just WS's who haven't told their S that Pep seems to have a problem with. I have read many posts from WS's that are sincerely trying to move forward with recovery (and have told their BS) and it just seems like there are always negative undertones in Pep's replies. I'm only trying to point out that some of us WS's are sincerely sorry and repentent and we have chosen to tell our Spouse's and we want to move ahead with recovery. But it seems that those WS's don't get any more understanding or kindness from Pep than the ones that haven't confessed. I just have a hard time understanding how posts like that can help those WS's who really want help; it seems to me like it scares them off more than anything. We already know we're sinful and that we've done horrible things, all we're asking for is help and guidance on our journey towards recovery- not judgement.

Moving onto a different subject----
I have to say that as a WS, I have gotten alot of helpful advice from many posters (WS's and BS's both). I am very grateful to those BS's that have found it in their hearts to help me in spite of what they've been through with their own WS. It makes me feel good to know that there are so many forgiving and loving people out there- it's like we're all a big family and we want to see each other do good. I just wanted to say Thank You to everyone that has gone out of their way to help other's here at this site.

SG

SG,

I think if you simply read what Pep posts and don't try to guess what she means you will see that she gives her comments and advice unfrettered by hyperbole. It is the straight dose, but it is given with care.

What often happens here is that people want to read more into her responses than she actually said, and she ALWAYS says precisely what she means no more or less. So when you read her posts, just read the words, there are NO hidden means, no inuendo's, it is just plain Pep.

As hard hearted as she seems sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , you need to recognize that she forgave her H and loves him deeply. How is that possible? She is telling you, how it is possible: honesty. Her words to Sarie were hard, direct, and accurate, but what is forgotten when they were posted they were posted to Sarie alone NOT everyone else, and Sarie had been lying to her H for over a decade.

Sarie's response that "you don't know who could be having an affair" is fair, but misses the point. Once you KNOW something then you must act on it appropriately, and trusting someone that thinks lying to their spouse is a good thing doesn't seem to be very smart, especially when no one needs friends that badly, or at least shouldn't.

Her message is NOT that forgiveness and a deep loving married is out of the question and should be for a WS, but that it takes honesty to get that. Yes, even honesty about telling your BS that you are thinking of the WS and need their help to get them out of your mind.

Now perhaps I like Pep's work here because I have been accused of being too blunt as well and I do think that coating things in sugar ONLY LEADS TO TOOTH DECAY, not enlightenment. It is also true that sometimes only harsh words seem to "shock" a BS or a WS out of counterproductive thinking.

So my advice to you is, ASSUME that PEP is offering her best advice to help you. Read it, consider it, don't over analysis it because she means precisely what she says no more no less, and then decide to act on it or not. She IS trying to help. And she does help.

If her style is not your cup of tea, then don't engage her in discussion, but I think all would be well advised to listen to her. She gets to some sore spots, but often that is the only way to really address the issues.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

In defence of pep, I would want to point out that a common thread amongst the WS tends to be to use their S's failure to meet their needs as a reason for the A.

Isn't this a sort of judgement on the BS?