JL- Thanks for the post. You have a good, clear way with words.

Uphill- I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. I don't know if you're talking about this thread or some other one's but I haven't read anywhere on this thread where a WS's is trying to justify their A based on their BS's actions. In fact, I know that I have said repeatedly that my H has always been wonderful and my A wasn't based on anything that he has done, it was based on me and problems with me only. I've been beating myself up over my residual feelings for OM because my H has been so supportive and wonderful. I'm sorry if there are WS's who do try to justify their A because of how their BS's treated them, I'm sure that's really hard for a BS on here to hear. In fact, it's hard for the WS to hear as well because for most of us, that's not the case.

SG

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Originally posted by stupidgirl:

Pep- I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth.

It appears to me as if you did put words into my mouth rather than ask for clarification of my words..

When I said the things that you said I was putting into your mouth, I was using words that describe how you make us feel.

By "us" I assume you mean YOU. Correct? Surely you are not speaking for others here.

If I make you feel "dirty" with my posts, then clearly say so, "Pep, your post made me feel dirty." ..... and we can discuss that. But, in my opinion, you were attempting to say "Pep thinks I am dirty" .... and I think you should assume I mean what I said, and leave it at that. Or, if you think I meant something else, just ask me. "Pep, do you think I am "dirty" because I had an affair?" .... And we can discuss that.

I can discuss anything with you as long as we both agree to say what we mean and assume the other is doing this as well.



The tone of your posts make us feel "beneath" you and "unworthy" to be in your presence.

You mean makes YOU feel this way, not "us". Correct? Then lets talk about why this is so. My tone, or my principles? Which is that what which causes you discomfort? And why?

You see, i don't think my tone is all that harsh, but I do have rather strong opinions about what it takes to turn infidelity around. Based on my readings, my own marriage experience, and the MB principles.

And, truthfulness is cornerstone to my principles about this.

Do you disagree with my cornerstone?

Sarie does.

I'm not saying that you said those things but that is the message that you're presenting to us.

Again, to YOU. I think you should own this interpretation as an individual. i would NEVER presume to speak for all BSs. That's impossible.

As I said earlier, you have every right to choose who you do and don't trust but I don't think you only have a problem with those WS's who have chosen not to tell their BS's; I think that you have a hard time trusting anyone (repentent or not, guilty of a "crime" or not).

On what do you base this opinion? (BTW, this time you totally took ownership of this opinion. Good for you.)

If I were unable to trust a repentant sinner, I could not trust anyone, since we all fall into that area of life one time or another.

But again, why aren't we discussing PRINCIPLES instead of my personality?

In AA and AlAnon meetings one of the credos is "Principles above personality". I love that!

My hubby is a recovering alcoholic. Somehow, his alcoholism is no longer an issue in our marriage. I trust an alcoholic! because he is recovering and doing the efforts he needs to do to stay recovered. he's been sober 8 years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Like I said, I know that you have helped many here and that's very nice of you.

I don't do it to be nice.

But, some people come here because they don't know where else to turn and they're genuinely looking for help.

But, some individuals would rather tell me how mean I am instead of being truthful to their spouse, or discuss their principles for living a good life and recovering a healthy happy marriage. Which, is far more important than my personality. Don'cha think?

When you come across as so hard and uncaring it can be very intimidating to some.

Yes, I know. Sometimes I blow newbies out'a the water. Shame on me. For that is completely wrong and dumb of me.

On the other hand, Sarie is no longer a newbie.

I object (strongly) when Sarie begins to counsel other recovering cheaters that it's best to not confess.... then she's crossed the line and I must object to HER PRINCIPLE that lying is good for a marriage.

You see, it's NOT Sarie the woman I object to and cannot make friends with .... it is her PRINCIPLE that lying is OK in a marriage.

Do you have problems with Sarie's underlying principle or not?

Just remember, we are all sinners.

Thanks for the reminder. I plan to go to confession before Easter.

We have all done bad things in our life times.

Of course.

It just seems as if your message is more of self righteousness than anything else sometimes.

My message in NOT about "me" perse....

My message is about the PRINCIPLES which I hold near and dear.

I'm sorry that this post took the nasty turn that it did, it's meant to be a place to help people, not hurt them.

Funny, I don't feel this is at all nasty! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think lying to a spouse for 12 years is nasty! Now THAT's something I think is vile and needs to be discussed. Don't you?

Can we all just be kind and accepting of one another and just realize that if we do this together we can get alot further on our journeys?

Are you asking me to be accepting of Sarie's position that lying to your spouse in order to get your needs met is OK?

The answer is NO.

I reject her principle with everything inside me.

I would not accept this from anyone, not just Sarie.

Do you think it is kind to lie to a man for 12 years unrepentantly?

This is interesting.

Do you think it would be kind of me to say to Sarie, "OK, lie to your husband for the rest of his life."

Don't you think it would damn her soul?

If she were my daughter, my sister, my friend, don't you think I would have an obligation to offer her an alternative life, a more honorable choice?

Is it kind to watch someone be swallowed up by their own greed, and sit quietly as they destroy themselves?

Pep

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Dear SG.
I am sorry you are being raked over the coals by Pepperband.
What happened to our safe thread?

We had not one drop of animosity, only kindness and caring for one another, before Pep posted.
Pep, we were not asking for advice in this thread, there is plenty of that elsewhere, we were expressing our heartfelt feelings here.
(Pep, please don't pick my note apart, sentence by sentence, please don't even respond. Thank You.)

I agree, let's try to get this topic back the way it was. The good part about this thread, was that it was a safe place where we could express our feelings of loss of the OP that were in our lives, without the fear of ridicule or condemnation.

This is the first time that I had felt 'safe' in sharing how hard it is living each day without the attention and friendship, the love and caring, from the OM.
He was such a good friend and losing him is like losing a dear brother.

Chris and the others, I have read your thoughts and you seem to feel the same.
We are sorry for hurting our loved ones and we are sorry for the hurt we are feeling also.

I like your idea, Chris, to talk more about the positives of our spouses.
I am surprised that your therapist tells you NOT to tell your wife about your 7 year long affair. How can your marriage truly mend with this big puzzle piece missing?

My husband and I walk a mile and a half every evening, taking our doggie Penny.
I pretend to be light-hearted and happy YET the thoughts of OM, just constantly pop into my brain.
And yes my husband knows of the affair, I reluctantly confessed in Jan, however he does not know just how deep my feelings for the OM were or how deep the OM feelings were for me.

I am hoping that wonderful TIME will diminish these 'foggy love-sick' feelings and that is my reasoning for not telling him how deep & intense this relationship was.
(Even though the top has been cut off, the roots are absolutely still there, probably will be for a long long time.)

Hang in there everyone and let's love and give to our spouses, all we possibly can.
Sincerely, Sarah

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Real friends don't simply stroke you when you need to be stroked and agree with everything you say. That is what bad counselors (most of them?)do.
Real friends will raise the bs flag when you are spouting bs.
Real friends will tell you when you are doing something wrong and make you do the right thing.

A real friend will keep you from doing something wrong, not do it with you or hide that fact that you did it.
"Friends" who tell you that everything you do is okay because you "feel it is right" are not real friends at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The good part about this thread, was that it was a safe place where we could express our feelings of loss of the OP that were in our lives </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my opinion, which is one that comes from a WW. that was not the good part of about this thread. I have limited my comments to suggestion how we can work on stopping this behaviour of obsessing over thoughts about OP because this is manditory for progress in our marriage. bottom line.

I know the feelings of loss and sadness, but posting about that only re-inforces those feelings. again that is my opinion.

as for Pep, she has a strong opinion regarding about not having 100% honesty about the truth. I assumed Sari's H did not know about A at all (as is the case with mine still), but now Sari just posted that H does know about affair so that is a bit confusing. well what fun with this all be if it were not constantly confusing!! (that was not my real opinion, that was sarcasm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Sarie,

You asked Pep not to post to you, but you didn't ask me to. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband and I walk a mile and a half every evening, taking our doggie Penny.
I pretend to be light-hearted and happy YET the thoughts of OM, just constantly pop into my brain.
And yes my husband knows of the affair, I reluctantly confessed in Jan, however he does not know just how deep my feelings for the OM were or how deep the OM feelings were for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So Sarie (small and pretty) the lies continue (see the bold I put in your quote). Your are pretending to enjoy your H's company. You have not told him of your deep love of OM. You have NOT told him that his marriage was more of an illusion than the realizes.

I suppose whenever your H does something for you, it triggers thoughts of OM. I suspose that you think it is fine that H goes on walks with you thinking that YOU enjoy these walks, but all you do is think of OM.

I realize that ending a 10 year affair, and at least 10 years of constant lying is difficult, but rather than wallow in sorrow of your lost, isn't it time that you changed one thing. Stop the lying, give your H a chance to see what he is really dealing with and a chance to decide to stay or go.

Sarie, you had ample opportunity to voice your feelings, love, desires to OM. You need to transfer these open discussions to your H, not hide them from him and come here and say this is the ONLY place you can discuss your feelings for OM.

This is what Pepper is on YOU for. I don't know if your H is a complete idiot or not. BUT, I have to beleive he knows you are NOT really with him. That you have not been really honest and forthcoming with him. If he senses these things at all, then your marriage will never come close to the fantasy with OM. YOU are the reason it will NOT, not your H. YOU, YOU, are lying still and because you are you are still focusing on the fantasy.

I am having a hard time believing your H is a complete fool, but apparently it must be true or at least you think it is true. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Stop and consider what you are doing and NOT doing. I don't know if you love your H at all or not. I don't know you or your H, but I do know that the lies are hurting your marriage. You can control that even if you cannot control your thoughts.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL, I know you really care about me!
REALLY REALLY CARE from your sincere good heart!

I am going to re-post my Jan message about telling my husband.

I am doing the best I can, JL, you just don't know how hard it is....I just cannot tell my husband how deeply I still love the OM, I am not going to break his heart any more than I already have.
I will come here and share those feelings once in awhile.

My husband does not want to talk about 'the affair' anymore. We talked a lot when we were in Florida and he is basically finished, just wants to move on with life.

PLease give my heart time to get over the OM.
I will, it just takes more time than 6 months.
Like I said, these roots go very very deep into my soul!
Love, Sarah
(I guess Pep missed the following message!)


Sarie
Member
Member # 31640

posted January 29, 2004 07:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks SKM for taking the time to write this message.
I was able to read it from the library in Tampa on Monday but was unable to answer until after we got home last night.

I am sure it brought back a lot of memories that you would rather not think about.
Like all the heartache you caused your husband and the guilt you felt and still feel for what you did. .

This is one of things you wrote that stood out for me:
"I'm cutting you some slack, right now, because I do think you are in the fog and missing the OP is real for WS - but it should not and can not last forever. . .If it does, you're cheating yourself, and, honestly, you are still cheating on your H and family. And, really, the only reason you cannot get past the feelings for the OM is because you haven't DONE anything to get past them, you don't want to. For whatever reason, you need to want to get past those feelings - even if that reason seems petty to the BSs on this board."

That is soooo true! I am sure I do not want to forget because if I can easily just forget, then I am admitting that what my OM and I had ,was not sincere love for one another!

Actually, when the OM or the OW are blamed for destroying another's marriage;
I disagree. I put the MOST blame on the WS.
After all, it is OUR marriage, OUR vows we are breaking to our husbands, OUR children, parents and church friends we are hurting....if we do not feel that tremendous responsibility, how can we expect an outsider to care all that much?

My husband and I had a wonderful bonding time on our Florida vacation. He opened up as we walked on a quiet private beach. We talked, we cried, I apologized again from the bottom of my heart for the pain I caused him, he forgave me AGAIN!

I never stopped loving him, even during my affair and this is true.
It always was and still is, my husband, that I wanted to grow old with!

SKM, on a post you had written in "Recovery', I read how you felt SO good to be forgiven by your husband and God. (Yes, you and I are both very very fortunate to have forgiving husbands!)

I finally also feel the blessed forgiveness!
Until I was WILLING to 'repent' and turn away from my sin of still being in contact with the OM, I could not ask forgiveness from God or my husband.
('Repenting' means not repeating that same behavior!)

I does make for a happy spirit inside my heart being headed in the right direction, I am singing and smiling more and more. I know my husband likes to be around a happy wife!
No longer lying and sneaking feels SO GOOD as well as having an honest relationship with my husband once again.

And we absolutely DO have hot embers of love, they never were distinguished!
Thank God.
I am trying to ONLY look back, as a reminder to never repeat past mistakes.

Have I forgotten the OM and the memories we shared? Of course not!
But TIME is going to diminish my feelings for him, just as TIME always pushes sorrows and grief to the back of our minds.

During the affair, especially the first year, it was as if the decision to be with the OM was almost made for me, IT had control of me and was STRONGER than my will to remain faithful.

Quite unbelievable because I NEVER in my wildest dreams thought I would be a cheating wife. NEVER!
But I am wiser and stronger now and I accept the OM will forever be unreachable and untouchable and he HAS to be avoided (No contact between us) for the healing of my H and my marriage.

Thanks again, SKM, you are a wonderful and insiteful lady.
Had you not had your affair, you would not be here helping others.
Give that little sweetie girl a hug and kiss from us at the messge board!
Love, Sarah

I am now a forgiven FWW instead of a cheating WW. It feels pretty darn good to be able to HONESTLY say that! ~~Peace~~

I owe a great deal to many here at the MB that helped direct me on the right road.
Thanks so much from my heart!

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

chris37:

"...We WS are just very selfish people. I believe all of us WS’s here want to become true giving people, I know I do..."

That captures it so effectively. Unfortunately, even that doesn't capture the magnitude of it.

You replied to me earlier you'd never seen anything from WS blaming the BS for their A. I gotta say, sorry pal, but you mustn't have seen the posts I've seen. It IS a common thread amongst WS - WW especially - to use things things like "my H is emotionally unavailable to me", or "we never communicate" or "H was not fulfilling my needs" as justifications for their A.

But, you are right. It is selfishness. Maybe that's part of my problem. My W was selfish in her A. It was all about her and her needs. But what about me? I had unmet needs, too.

I guess I just want to be selfish as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Teensie-tiny threadjack here to say hi to JL...

Hi JL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , long time, no see over on the P/C boards. It's not the same without your bits of wisdom interjected from time to time!

I see you are needed here though, I'll let you get back to it.

Hope you are well!

Hi to Pep too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Chris,

Please read THIS quote from MY post </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am having a hard time believing your H is a complete fool, but apparently it must be true or at least you think it is true. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So did you take your W who you cheated on for 7 years as a complete fool? You surely didn't show her much respect, and neither is Sarah showing her H much respect or she feels he is incapable of handling things, although he seems to have been able to handle her telling him about the affair. Of course we don't know what he really KNOWS about the A, and what he THINKS he knows.

She made the statement that he doesn't know how deeply she felt for OM, which suggests that he knows she may have had sex with him a few times in 10 years, but he doesn't know she lived to be with him for 10 years.

So do me a favor and read all of my words before you disagree with them.

Oh! I dare because it is NOT much of a step to consider someone a COMPLETE fool that you have no respect for. She had no respect for her H just as you did for your W.

But, she continues to keep him in the dark and pretend to be happy, because she doesn't think he can handle it and is not smart enough to notice she is down and NOT who she used to be. IT is possible that he cannot remember well enough back a decade or more when she was REALLY HIS W. A decade is a long time.

She is coming along, but she is still deluding herself about her H and what her role in his life should be.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,

JL


PS: Hi! AD, things seem to be slowing down on the other board and what is posted I don't really have anything to offer. How are you doing? Post an update one of these days.

Yeah they have slowed, but we did have a WW come along the other day who may be P w/ OM, but deep in fog. I'm worried I may have blasted her a bit too much. It's just I want to shake whatever sense I can into women that are in the same dark place I was. You may want to check it out.

I'll do an update soon. Maybe I'll start posting on these other boards.

Hi all- Chris, yes I did check out that website and I'm going to go back on it again to get some more info. Good site, thanks. By the way, May will be a perfect time for a cruise. I hope you have alot of fun!! Where are you guys going anyways?

I wanted to share a poem with you that I got from my H (he's such an awesome man, I'm really lucky) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> :
--------------------------------------
I may not say it enough. But I think it all the time.

Every morning when I see your face, when those beautiful eyes first open and that smile starts to shine, I think about how much I love you. I love the quick kiss we share before leaving for the day, and the gentle hug when we meet again in the evening.

I love you when you’re not around. Sometimes, in the middle of the day, you cross my mind and I pause, my heart races, and I think about our next adventure together. I’ll see a small gift, and wonder if you’d like to have it; I’ll see a big house, and wish that I could get it for you; I’ll see an old couple holding hands, and pray that you and I will be spending our golden years together.

I love it when you walk in the door. I love to hear you clanging about in the kitchen. I love watching you get ready for bed. (Making a nest.) I love how you make me feel, the thousand ways you show me you’re glad to be with me. That trust, that respect, makes me a better man. But of all the ways I love you, my sweets, my favorite is when you snuggle in close at night, and the warmth of your body and the warmth of your little heart, seeps into me, making me who I am… making me a man. Without that I would be lost.

And so even if I don’t say it as often as I should, I know that you know it’s true….

I LOVE YOU.
---------------------------------------------

Anyways, I just wanted to share that and let you know that things in my M are wonderful lately and thanks to Finally Learning and her mantra, and all the support here, I'm really doing well.

Chris- Do you have any "romantic" things planned for your wife during the cruise? A coworker of mine just went on a cruise and she bought a little gift (one for each night on the ship) and gave it to him each night. I thought that was a pretty neat thing.

Anyways, take care.
SG

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: stupidgirl ]</small>

SG...I'm so glad to read that things are going well for you and H. What a sweet poem. You are married to a hopeless romantic!!! Your H sounds like an awesome person...a good match for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I just wanted to say hi and it's good to see that things are going well for you.

Hey Lisa,
Thank you for your kind words. Things really do seem to be going well with M and H. When he wrote me that poem I felt so many things. I felt so blessed to have him for my H, I felt sad and guilty that I almost destroyed this wonderful man, and I felt incredible love and peace.

I hope that all is well with you. How are you doing these days?

SG

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Hey Chris,
Just saw your edited message this morning, didn't get a chance to see it before it was deleted. Just wanted to check in and make sure you were ok.

SG