<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chris37:
<strong> NB: Quote "You say how you "want to get rid of OP for good..." as if that takes time. It doesn't, if you don't LET IT".

NB: Ahhhhhhhh..The answer I been looking for. What a wise person you are. Thanks I&#8217;m all better now. Chris </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your sarcasm is duly noted. So is your anger at me and anyone who suggests that YOU have some control over YOURself, YOUR thoughts, and YOUR emotions.

You must have missed where I said (after the above post you quoted): </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chris, and those of you working through all this -- I do wish you peace and restored marriages. I am not telling you to forget about the OP - Lord knows I'll never forget the OM in my situation, much as I'd like to <wish there was a vomit smiley>.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I wish you peace, and a restored marriage.

I don't know if Susan will stick around, but I think it's best if I refrain from giving any more advice. I've said what I came to say -- and I'm sorry it wasn't taken as I intended -- as helpful.

I think I've hijacked SG's thread for long enough. Susan and Sheryl I, for one, found your posts EXTREMELY helpful.

I think I will start a new thread for myself because I would love to hear more from you both. Not tonight though because I've been on this site most of the day and I'm feeling guilty about what I haven't done round the house today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (it's already Saturday here in New Zealand).

Jenny

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

I "get" feelings Chris. I have plenty myself.

I'm sorry that I have not understood your need to be validated. I understand that too.

Please understand that I have been trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to HELP you and other WS's work through those feelings.

Best wishes Chris, truly. Now I really will bow out of this thread. I hope you get what you need from it in future.

Sheryl:

From a page or so back...:

"So, I'll leave you guys and gals to your 'working through' it all. Take your time... but don't be surprised if your spouses aren't waiting for you when you're done. I don't say that with malice -- I promise you. It's just a sad fact, and one I hope you appreciate."

This is seriously true, folks. I'm dealing with this now. A "numbness" that ShatteredinSF posted recently that he felt a while back, ...just before real recovery began for him and his FWW. I also really understand the "no malice" remark. I still love my W very much, but unconditionally. Right now, my "conditional love" for her is... ...well, it feels pretty numb most of the time, punc2ated by intense feelings of compassion when I see she's genuinly hurting or she's being sweet.

We have a sort of analogous thing going on in our lives, perhaps put there precisely 2 help us learn a lesson from it, a decision 2 make about whether 2 sell our 2nd house and force my SIL 2 find an apartment, or continue 2 go in the hole each month for the difference between the mortgage and the rent she can pay. We can no longer afford it. We have 2 decide, and then it's up 2 her 2 not take our decision personally.

Recovering from an A is like that, at least it is for me. Whether my W can or wants 2 end contact with RM for the rest of her life is entirely her decision, because I won't demand it. She's known for 26 months now that I need it 2 stay M'd. Still Seeking once suggested 2 me that I ask her "What would it take for you 2 WANT NC?" But I haven't asked her yet. I don't know whether it's because I'm chicken, or whether... ...okay, SS, I'm chicken still. But I think the time has come 2 ask that 2uestion after all.

You see? I don't want us 2 get 2 the point that Sheryl warned the WSs about where I have just lost interest in rebuilding. My W's A lasted more than 12 years, all told, and RM continued consulting for her for more than a year and a half after D-day, "justifying" continued contact. JL had warned me 2 years ago that, because her A lasted so long, I had a long haul ahead of me (not the reason for "2long" by the way, that's short for "2longhistory2quit"). At the time, that seemed like an impossibility. I couldn't imagine living through the hurt longer than "most" people here do. But the truth? There's nothing else you can do. If you end the M, you carry the baggage with you. If you bandaid the M, you carry the baggage with you. The only thing you can do is work through the hurt, both the WS and the BS. The BS can't demand, and the WS can't expect to "wean" themselves off the OP.

I still believe that my W and I will get on the same track at some point before it's 2 late. But I could be wrong, and it isn't the right thing for all 2ples 2 do.

best,
-ol' 2long

SG: I copied this out of a book that I am reading. I am going to do this, you may want to give it a try too. or you can wait and I'll tell you if it helps. I did cut some things out that do not apply for us like step 2. Chris

"disturbing are those sweet dreams–you know which ones! Those beautiful dreams about you two getting back together, about him/her telling you all those things you desperately want to hear so bad. And then you wake up, ouch, they really didn't say all those sweet,loving things! Reality sets in rapidly and the grief and loneliness consumes you. What has helped me and many others, and may help you also, are a combination of three things.

Step: 1) Get a pad of paper and write down a list of "what-if's" (and I'm not talking about–what if he/she called me up...what if we got back together...what if this never happened...etc). This is what I mean:

"What if....I won the lottery, what would I do?"
"What if....I could go back to school, what courses would I take?"
"What if....I were to be offered a huge job promotion/advancement? What would I do?"
"What if....I were suddenly younger/older? What would I do?"
"What if....I were to start a garden? What would I plant in it?"
"What if....I could go on a vacation? Where would I go and what would I do?"
"What if....I were to buy a puppy? What kind would I buy and what would I name it?"
"What if....I were suddenly transported to another planet? What would I miss about Earth?"

Keep the notepad on the nightstand next to your bed. Now every night before you go to sleep check your notepad and pick a "what if". Then lay back, close your eyes, and imagine what you would do–and imagine in detail! For instance, don't just imagine you would plant flowers in your garden. Imagine what kind, what color, how you would arrange them, how you would take care of them, how you would design your garden, if you would add a fence or bench, etc.

Step: 3) Get yourself a morning ritual, such as an exercising regimen, walking, jogging, bike ride, stretches, listening to the morning news on t.v., reading the paper out on the veranda with a cup of cafe au lait, feeding your cat or dog, calling your mother, watering the plants. Anything that will immediately pop into your head upon waking. If it is impossible to get yourself a morning ritual then plan for just one morning at a time. "Tomorrow when I wake up I'm going to phone my sister. I haven't spoken with her in ages, she'll be delighted to hear from me!" "Tomorrow when I wake up I'm going to try that new recipe for baked Vanilla French Toast with Coconut! Mmmmmmmm!"

Well, all in all, remember that stress causes disturbances in our every day routines and it is nothing to be alarmed about. A great deal of inner healing takes place in our dreams. Situations in our dreams are the only situations outside of our own doing that we can actually control, or alter the outcome of. In a sense, we can quiet those Angels down by altering or changing the scenarios surrounding them.

Sleep problems are common with breakups and they, too, shall pass.

SG: This is out of the same book; It's long but worth the read. Some of this rings true for me. This book is not about affairs. But I think there are some good points in here that we can apply to our situation. Chris

ADDICTED TO OUR MATES

Before I get into this let me say that it is my belief that EVERYONE becomes somewhat addicted to things that are familiar and habitual in their lives. For instance, if every morning you drank a glass of orange juice immediately upon rising, and then one morning you found you were out of orange juice, you may mourn the absence of it. Habit. When a habit is removed our sense of stability, one of our life's rituals, has been removed–upsetting our balance. Very common. I believe every one of us goes through some kind of withdrawal after the end of a relationship. After all, the relationship has become a customary way of life for us and it would only be natural to have symptoms of withdrawal. But for others the relationship, the love, or the object of their love, has actually became an addiction to them. They are physically, emotionally, and mentally dependent on this relationship, love, or object of love in their lives to function normally. The addiction far surpasses simple habit. It takes on a life's ambition all its own.

And what is a habit? A habit is simply a learned behavior that we acquire through repetition. If we enjoy the ongoing occurrence we develop an urge or a craving for it, to the point where we repeat the experience out of need to feel in balance. It becomes habit. And habits are hard to break. But they can be broken through perseverance and acknowledgement of the habit.

Did you know that you can actually become addicted–physically, emotionally, and mentally–to your mates, to love, and to your relationship? YEP! And did you know that sometimes we have to go through a withdrawal when relationships end? YEP! But, if you're not aware of this how can you learn to work through it, right? So I'm here to explain to you the different 'love' addictions and what you can expect. I'm not going to try and explain to you why you are addicted (I suppose it stems from our childhood [that nasty subconscious Angel again]–I mean doesn't everything stem from our childhood?!?!)

CHEMICAL ADDICTION:
Have you ever heard the phrase "it's chemistry". Well, guess what, it could be! When people fall in love their brains create the chemical phenylethylamine (PEA). The chemical is released from the brain and enters the body (gives a whole new meaning to the expression "pea-brained", doesn't it?). The more in love you get–the more chemical your body receives. The chemical is responsible for that thrill and energy we feel when we fall in love. As the chemical levels rise we feel an intensified excitement and euphoria. The more we feel the increase in excitement the more chemical we release. Oh argh! What a vicious cycle!

Some psychological signs of a sudden drop in this chemical would be preoccupation with the person, or the relationship, that created the release of this chemical; obsessive compulsion to regain this person or relationship back into our lives; and increasing despair, guilt, or shame over our inability to stop wanting or needing this person or relationship.

Some symptoms of physical withdrawal:

sweating or rapid pulse
increased hand tremor
insomnia
nausea or vomiting
physical agitation / irritability or easily excited
anxiety / panic
chills and sweating / clammy skin
loss of appetite
cramps and nausea
feeling of jumpiness or nervousness
feeling of shakiness
emotional volatility, rapid emotional changes
depression
fatigue
difficulty with thinking clearly
sensation of feeling the heart beat (palpitations)
headache
PSYCHOLOGICAL ADDICTION:
Love creates and evokes many different emotions in us. Basically the love of another makes us feel safe, protected from the world, trusted, full of joy, and complete. For the love addict these feelings create a feeling of "high". It alters their moods, creates in them an euphoria, makes them feel on top of the world. It far surpasses simple comfort but becomes a security blanket. It surpasses joyfulness and becomes a feeling of intoxification. When these feelings are removed the "addict" will go to any length to get them back. The addiction is transferred to the thing that gave it to them, the ex, the relationship, sex, or being in love itself. Life without this person, relationship, etc., is not worth living (at least from the addict's point of view). It doesn't matter to them that their "fix" is participating or not, they desperately need to regain the love. The need of regaining this love precludes any other need. The addict is often obsessed with finding the world in one lover. They quickly attach themselves to the object of their love, often taking on the identity of their romance interest.

Some common characteristics of love/people/relationship addiction:

*Consuming or obsessive thoughts of the object of your love
*Avoidance of the loss of this love
*Seeking to avoid rejection or abandonment at all cost
*Manipulation to regain this love
*Extreme dependency on this love
*Perceives love and relationship as a basic human need
*Sense of worthlessness without a relationship or partner
*Feelings of not being whole outside of a relationship
*Extremely accepting of abuse, often putting rational explanations to irrational treatment from another
*Defining "wants" as "needs"
*Refusal to acknowledge these as a problem

Extremely fearful of change in–or the loss of–their addictive fix, the love addict will go to any level to regain their lost love. This desperate need for a fix consumes the addict's every moment, shaking their security, creating obsessive thoughts of their love, and creating emotional scheming on the part of the addict.

For most individuals after the loss of a relationship they go through a period of mourning but eventually resume normal lives and form new bonds. However, for the love addict, the issues take on pathological variations of the grieving process, and making future bonding more difficult. An anxious type of attachment to a relationship or person, and a history of compulsive care-taking of that relationship or person may result in chronic grief when facing the loss of that attachment. Love addicts often turn into stalkers, or resort to extreme measures of suicidal thoughts or threats.

If you discover that any of this rings true to you then I strongly urge you to seek professional assistance.

What is an addiction? An addiction is any activity or substance we repeatedly crave to experience. Any fixation for which we are willing to pay any price necessary to receive. People have sacrificed everything for their addictions. Pride, dignity, families, jobs, friends, home, and even their own lives. I lost a mate to his addiction–he lost his life to it. Love and relationship addicts continue their obsessive need for the relationship long after it is clear that the relationship is over and that the price they are paying for their obsession is that of themselves and their families own happiness and health. An individual who has lost sleep, jobs, friends, personal freedom, health, life's meaning, joyfulness, happiness, contentment, and a sense of self-worth because of the removal of a relationship, or love object, from their lives, but is unwilling to accept their addiction, or unwilling to change, should seek professional help.

An addict doesn't succumb to the addiction for any other reason than the intense craving for it. It is not the source of their addiction that they need, it's the satisfying of the intense cravings that motivates him.

The compulsive urges or craving for their lost relationships can create chaos, tension, anticipation and anxiety in their everyday lives. The pleasures of a fix can be diverse. The love, relationship, or object of their love can create a positive mood or disguise a negative one. They feel that only through love will they not feel stressed, anxious, angry, unwanted, unloved, unneeded, undesirable, unworthy, depressed, bored, lonely, afraid, etc.

If you are obsessing over the loss of a relationship and it is causing you loss of your every day joy, pleasure, and happiness, you may be addicted. If you are preoccupied with an ex, a relationship, or finding and feeling love, you may be addicted. If this loss has made you feel without self-respect, or if you tend to minimize its effect or hold on you, you may be an addict in denial.

ADDICTION DENIAL:
Failure to see that a problem exists can be just as devastating as the addiction. When we are in denial we are blind to the extent, or severity, that the addiction wreaks on our every day life. We fail to see the connection between the addiction and our pain and suffering and we don't seek the help we need. If any of this rang true to you while you were reading it chances are you could be addicted. Denial can be very damaging! It impairs our judgment resulting in self-delusion. Denial prevents us from understanding the implications and consequences associated with our addiction. Some people use denial in every situation in their lives. "I didn't see anything wrong with the relationship, and then one day he just decided to end it!" This is one form of denial. The sad thing about denial is it can mirror itself. When denial sees denial, it denies it. That's why getting past denial is tricky...it requires tons of willingness, mountains of openmindedness, and shiploads of humility. If you feel defensive in me questioning your denial then you must be hearing something threatening in my statement. What could that be? This is denial.

HABITUAL ADDICTION:
As explained in the beginning of this section "simple addiction to habits are very common". If your work is nearby a Chinese restaurant, and every day for years you go there on your lunch break and order Chicken Chow Mein–that becomes habit. However, one afternoon you go in there and the waiter says, "sorry, but we haven't any chicken today," what would you do? You may get a little 'put out'. Maybe anxious, or feel somewhat unsettled–even possibly out of balance. But, even through these emotions, you still have to eat–so you order Beef Chop Suey instead. And it tastes good–in fact, you might even enjoy the Beef Chop Suey better! The Beef Chop Suey creates this great, new, taste sensation that you've never experienced before! So what is happening to you now? You are receiving two mixed signals. One is the sorrow and displacement of your 'typical' day by the loss of your customary plate of Chicken Chow Mein, creating a feeling of being out of balance or even anxious–you may even feel guilty about giving up your trusted Chicken Chow Mein. But, too, you may feel another contradicting euphoric promise of discovering this new and exciting food. Ah, the Beef Chop Suey! Who would have guessed it could be so inviting! However, if you go back there the next day (and you will), even though you enjoyed the Beef Chop Suey better, you may still be tempted to order the Chicken Chow Mein. Why? Habit! And habits are hard to break. Even if it's just to Chicken Chow Mein!

Below are some suggestions to help you break a habit:

List all the gains and pains you received from your habit (your habit being your day-to-day relationship with your ex). Example:

Gains of My Addiction:

What negative emotions did being with my ex lessen? For example: depression, boredom, loneliness, fear.
What positive emotions did my ex bring out in me: For example: feelings of being loved, needed, wanted, worthy, intelligent, pretty, funny, witty, desirable, safe, secure, comfortable, belonging.
To what extent did these emotional fixes effect my every day life? For instance: My job performance improved, my confidence improved, my outlook was more optimistic, I formed better friendships, I became more in tune to my own wants, needs, and desires.
How did my relationship improve the quality of my life? For instance: I felt encouragement to continue my education, support in career change, more socially accepted.
How much did my relationship make me feel normal and accepted by others?
How did my relationship help me improve or grow? For instance: Better education, more patience and tolerance, higher self-esteem, increase in compassion and empathy, more rewarding relationship with my family and friends.
Pains of My Addiction:

What did I dislike about the relationship in general? For instance: loss of freedom, arguments, feelings of neglect, sacrifices, being unappreciated, giving more than I received.
How much better would my life be if I were to stop my compulsive longing to reconcile? For instance: better daily joy, personal contentment, increased job performance, open to new relationships, regaining sense of self worth, self-respect, loss of anxiety, restfulness, better health, personal freedom, loss of feelings of shame, increased self-dignity, reclaiming my pride.
How much would my energy, stamina, and performance levels increase if I were to stop my compulsive longing to reconcile?
How much guilt would I be able to let go of?
How would my outlook on life improve?
Could I avoid legal problems (fighting a divorce, harassment charges)?
How would my physical appearance improve? For instance: no more dark circles under my eyes, clearer complexion, lilt in my walk, healthier diet, better personal hygiene, more natural smile.
What pleasures could I experience that it is difficult to experience now? For instance: dating and new relationships, freedom, ability to come and go as I please, joining singles groups and activities, satisfaction in feeling my accomplishments.
If you study your answers you'll see that it is possible to experience what you listed in your "gains" outside of the relationship. It is also possible to feel the promise of a better life that you listed in your "pains" when you see what you will gain by letting go of the habit. This should be your motivation to break the habit. For many though, the problem is not in motivation, but in fighting the urges, and cravings, to give in to the habit. If you understand the urges and cravings are merely a means for you to regain a certain feeling (as in our "gains" list) and once you understand you can create those same positive effects outside of the relationship, it should be easier to fight the urges. This may involve coping with problems that existed before the relationship. For more help on this see the section on Our Angels.

NOTE: It may be interesting to note that–as with any addiction–all your addictive voices come from your Angel, and not your rational, logical, reasoning, conscious mind. Here again, understanding your Angel and her fears may help eliminate her addictive cravings!

"First we form habits, then they form us. Conquer your bad habits,
or they'll eventually conquer you."~~Dr. Rob Gilbert

RELAPSES:
Certain circumstances, times, or events may trigger a relapse that is contradictory to your efforts of breaking your habit. It is best to identify what these high risk situations are. For instance, if your ex always called you faithfully at 2 p.m. every day, then create another (habitual) activity around that time. Go for a walk every day at 2 p.m., call your mother just to say hi, or feed the dog. I know one man who, upon waking every morning, would be consumed with the emptiness of the bed they both slept in. He decided to take up a morning exercise regimen, redecorate his bedroom, and move the furniture around. Now, when he wakes up, instead of the familiar surroundings with the gaping "hole" in it, the first thing that comes to his mind is getting those exercises going! Find and identify your triggers so they won't send you into a tailspin of relapse when they occur.

Lastly, the development of a more positive lifestyle and 'positive' addictions is the best cure to breaking old habits. Take up jogging, concentrate on healthier eating habits, surround yourself with inner energy and clean your soul of poisonous thoughts and emotions. I believe a healthy attitude is one of the most positive reinforcements we can give ourselves during recovery. By choosing to have a healthy, positive attitude about life, suffering, the relationship, the past, and the future–you can actually increase the peace of your life and control the outcome of your breakup, instead of having it control you. Some days you will find it is one moment at a time because the pain may be so great. And it is. Taking it one day at a time, and taking those harder days one moment at a time helps you to face the reality and deal with the loss as it comes. Taking the whole picture into account and trying to deal with it in one huge step, "breakup––recovery", instead of one day at a time, causes depression and an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness.

"The secret of contentment is knowing how to enjoy what you have,
and to be able to lose all desire for things beyond your reach."~~Lin Yutang

Chris, this book sounds interesting; but I couldn't find the title anywhere in your post, would you let us know? Thanks, CSue

2L,

You've said some pretty profound things here!

2L says:
You see? I don't want us 2 get 2 the point that Sheryl warned the WSs about where I have just lost interest in rebuilding. My W's A lasted more than 12 years, all told, and RM continued consulting for her for more than a year and a half after D-day, "justifying" continued contact. JL had warned me 2 years ago that, because her A lasted so long, I had a long haul ahead of me (not the reason for "2long" by the way, that's short for "2longhistory2quit"). At the time, that seemed like an impossibility. I couldn't imagine living through the hurt longer than "most" people here do. But the truth? There's nothing else you can do. If you end the M, you carry the baggage with you. If you bandaid the M, you carry the baggage with you. The only thing you can do is work through the hurt, both the WS and the BS. The BS can't demand, and the WS can't expect to "wean" themselves off the OP.

2L - stop here a moment and clarify!!! What do yu mean the WS can't expect to "wean" themselves off the OP?

2L - again here -
I still believe that my W and I will get on the same track at some point before it's 2 late. But I could be wrong, and it isn't the right thing for all 2ples 2 do.

2L - I think you're right of course; but what a wonderful gift (if I can use the term loosly) you have given yourself, your wife, and your children to give it your very best effort. You're inspiring in this way you know. You make it easy for me to tell myself that if you can do what you're doing, then surely I can keep doing what I'm doing in my situation. At least in my case my H wants to maintain NC. It's the OW who keeps popping up every few months that makes me crazy. I need to quit trying to make sense of an OW who keeps pursuing a married man for 2 years after he said he wanted no further contact with her. But like your situation - they've had a 20 year friendship that had a short PA, then the affair ended and they maintained their friendship up until d-day when I said NC. Now 2 years later, she's still chasing him.

We sent the NC letter prior to finding MB, and since Steve Harley said to send the authentic MB NC letter would be "contact" we shouldn't send it. But I'm starting to re-think that decision. The wording is so good in the SAA NC letter that maybe it's time to send it now.

Thank you for your thought-provoking post! CSue

CSue:

"2L - stop here a moment and clarify!!! What do yu mean the WS can't expect to "wean" themselves off the OP?"

Simply that the WS can't expect 2 succeed at gradually reducing contact over time, or being "just friends" or "just colleagues" (my W thought they could still at least be colleagues and work 2gether occasionally). Like Michelle Weiner-Davis says, it has 2 be cold turkey. Instantly cut off contact and stay out of contact for life... ...just like the Harleys recommend... ...and of course pretty much every professional on this planet. NC may HURT a LOT, but it is absolutely necessary. The BS, of course, must be patient while the WS gets 2 a point that they can agree 2 it. Sounds like a contradiction, or a state of limbo, doesn't it? Well, it is. It's where "do you want 2 be right or do you want 2 be married?" comes from. For the period of time while the BS is in either plan A or plan B (or someone else's equivalent), they may have 2 be patient while they get themselves 2gether and the WS pulls their head out of the fog (the fog, in this metaphor, is a deep, icky brown, by the way).

Time.

"what a wonderful gift (if I can use the term loosly) you have given yourself, your wife, and your children to give it your very best effort. You're inspiring in this way you know. You make it easy for me to tell myself that if you can do what you're doing, then surely I can keep doing what I'm doing in my situation."

I've been known 2 say things like "If I can do it, any idiot can!" ...sarcastically, of course. I don't feel all that inspired, though. Just that I've truly realized that there is no simple solution that allows me 2 just run away, in any way, shape or form. There's no such thing as "finding happiness" with dirty emotional underwear in my baggage. There's no panacea "out there" at all. It's all within. And since I'm not being all that abused (at least not any more than my W is abusing herself while going through HER process), why go anywhere? Maybe this is where the Moody Blues came up with the line in one of their songs "It's easier 2 try, than 2 prove it can't be done, and it's easier 2 stay, than 2 2rn around and run" when there are certainly times when it might SEEM that that is not the case. On the other hand, I wouldn't describe my choice 2 be patient as "taking the easy way out" by avoiding making fateful decisions, because this recovery stuff is far from easy. It's hard work, and I don't even believe I've done all that much of it yet, even though it's been about 7 months now.

"But like your situation - they've had a 20 year friendship that had a short PA, then the affair ended and they maintained their friendship up until d-day when I said NC. Now 2 years later, she's still chasing him."

I honestly don't know whether my W and RM have had contact since the last time I know about in December. I suspect that they have, but I haven't asked her. I think RM is a pitiful twit who broke up his family over the selfish choices he made, though. I don't have a strong desire 2 contact him myself, at least most of the time. I do have a strong desire 2 get an NC agreement with my W, but I really believe that making a demand won't get me what I want, because there will always be this feeling that I coerced her in2 agreeing, and I don't want that. I want her 2 make her decisions for herself. I can hope that the choices she makes will be conducive 2 rebuilding, but I can't expect them 2 be. It's really up 2 her.

-ol' 2long

CSue: This is an E-book called "Lifted Hearts" you can buy it at this web site. I think it was $17.00 or so. (aboutyourbreakup.com/book.html) Hope it helps. Chris

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

wow, Chris, that is really good. Something weird has been happening on this post. First Lisa has an epiphany, then you and I have been feeling all weekend that OM was such a total waste of my time as well.

My boss knows OM through business and said to me the other day "Quite frankly I can't see what the attraction is for you." and it really sunk in.

Another thing that happened was that 24yo daugther was having a terrible time at work, she's moving up to a much more challenging job. (We work in the same office). I spent ages on the phone to her in the weekend, just listening and giving little bits of advice. I thought, there is no way I am going to hurt this girl any more, she's got enough to deal with in her job(she knows about A), or my H or anyone else with my unbelievably selfish behaviour.

Again, Chris, I had wondered why, after 7 seven years you hadn't actually decided to be with OW but your above post says it all.

Jenny

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chris37:
<strong> New Beginning: I was a little hard on you yesterday: SORRY. Actually I owe you a Thank-you; you stirred an emotion of anger in me. I haven&#8217;t felt much but remorse and guilt lately. Anger can be a good thing; the anger made me look at things a little different. If you read my post above you can see that. Anyway I wish you the best and thank you. Chris </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the apology - not necessary, but accepted, of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I really *do* understand what every WS goes through - and also what the BS goes through - I was both in my first (20 year)marriage.

Being way over on the other side (as I am) and seeing what I might have lost, and in fact DID lose, I can only say that I have a passion to share what I've learned.

After a few years of non-OW-ness has passed for you, you just might use your own passion to stir emotion in a new poster, who knows? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Best wishes to you too, chris.

Hey, WOW this thread has been busy this weekend. I just got back from a long weekend and I'm trying to catch up on all the posts from when I was gone but I wanted to post a quick reply first.

Chris- Thank you for those excerpts from that book. They are really fitting for our "addiction" of the OP. It's interesting because I've heard it mentioned before where you need to change your habits in order to change your thoughts. Interesting concept and it makes sense. I've been trying to change my routine alot and make new habits that belong to me and not OP.

Also, I'm so glad to hear that you had such an awesome breakthrough this weekend. This is wonderful news! You are right that OW was not worthy of being with someone like you. I'm so glad that it worked out that your W has decided to work past it and stay in the M because it sounds like she's a real gem. I think OW definately saw you as a challenge (married, successful man) and maybe she has the same issues that I do with self esteem, who knows. But, I'm just glad that things have worked out the way they have for you.

I haven't had a dream about OM for quite awhile and I'm certainly not thinking about him much anymore. Things between H and I are great and I just feel good. When thoughts of OM do pop into my head I find it so much easier to say my mantra and then put a smile on my face and be thankful for all the things I've been blessed with. I know that OM didn't deserve me- I was his 5 minutes of "fun" and I hope he realized what he had when he had it because he will never have it again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I liked the suggestions from that book about asking yourself those "What if" questions. Good way to challenge your mind and get any thoughts of OP out of there. I'm going to try that next time I need some help with it.

Anyways, I'm glad to hear that all is well with you. 2Long, I'm so sorry that you're still dealing with all these issues in your M. I must say that you're a VERY forgiving, caring man and I will pray for you that your M is all is can be and more and that your W finally realizes what a special man you are.

Thanks to everyone for all your continued help and support. I know that I would not be where I am in my recovery today if it weren't for all your wonderful people here. I'm dead serious when I say that you've all been life lines to me.

SG

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

SG: Don’t even think for one minute you have the same issues as my OW. You have made it crystal clear to me that you are an intelligent, warm, kind, caring women. You have a heart of gold and you have helped me more than you will ever know.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{A BIG THANK YOU}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

The self-esteem issue is a big one that I am wrestling with. Maybe that is the next post we should start. My therapist has given me a lot of insight, for $150 per hr he should, plus the 4,000 books that I have read <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Chris