</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
[QB]

For any Plan B'ers who might be reading my posts, how long did you have to go completely black before you heard from your WS? I'm just so afraid he'll forget me and not need me, and that all he's doing is drawing it out, hoping I'll file for D so he'll be off the hook.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The more likely scenario is that you forget about him and will not need him when you quit obsessing on him and start focusing on yourself and your kids. You will stop obessessing about him all the time and not live in constant fear of being threatened with D. If you will just allow Plan B to work, you can enjoy the peace that comes from removing yourself from his sick drama.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like I've taken care of everyone else for years. I just want so badly to have someone (1st choice would have been my H, but not WH) take care of ME for a while!!

LL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have someone to take care of you, LL. YOU!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The more likely scenario is that you forget about him and will not need him when you quit obsessing on him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because it took 23 years to get to know him this well, I think it will take a LONG time to forget about him or not need him.

And my fear still comes in when we turn that statement around. If he's NOT obcessing about me (and I'm sure he's not), then isn't it likely that he will forget about me and not need me either? (Especially if he has OW meeting his needs. No one is meeting mine.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have someone to take care of you, LL. YOU!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Easy to say--apparently harder to do. I'm wearing myself out, physically, emotionally, and now spiritually. I want someone to cook me a nice hot bowl of soup, and sit on the couch wrapped in a blanket with their arm around me and watch a movie. I want a backrub. I want someone else to take my DD to school a couple times per week or run the errands for me so I can relax a little.

(And then of course, I'd like someone to snuggle with in bed besides the dogs--they're worse bed hogs than my WH ever was, but they keep me warm and they think I'm special in their dog way.) I fear I'll never have that kind of companionship again, from anyone, but especially from WH.

Yes, still obcessing. It's hard sitting here working pretty much by myself because the mind wanders as I'm waiting on reports to process.

So I was just asking the question because patience isn't a virtue I possess, and I wondered if it's the norm, even in successful situations, for the WS to basically act like they care nothing for the BS, and to go weeks or months before they contact them again.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
[QB] </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The more likely scenario is that you forget about him and will not need him when you quit obsessing on him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because it took 23 years to get to know him this well, I think it will take a LONG time to forget about him or not need him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then the same applies to him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And my fear still comes in when we turn that statement around. If he's NOT obcessing about me (and I'm sure he's not), then isn't it likely that he will forget about me and not need me either? (Especially if he has OW meeting his needs. No one is meeting mine.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have no control over what he thinks and have no idea what is going on in his mind. LL, this is mental masturbation in its worst form and serves no productive purpose at all. You are scaring yourself with WHAT IF's that have nothing to do with reality. Your life is bad enough ON ITS OWN with manufacturing new dramas. You need to stop doing this to yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have someone to take care of you, LL. YOU!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Easy to say--apparently harder to do. I'm wearing myself out, physically, emotionally, and now spiritually. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is your choice to do so. I can see that you wear yourself out worrying about WHAT IFs when you don't have to.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I was just asking the question because patience isn't a virtue I possess, and I wondered if it's the norm, even in successful situations, for the WS to basically act like they care nothing for the BS, and to go weeks or months before they contact them again.

LL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is very normal. Contact usually takes place when they start getting scared about losing the BS. But he doesn't have that fear with you. He knows you are sitting there worrying about him so he can drag this out for awhile.

LL

Yes, my WH moved out on 2/8 but he still comes around to see S. He does not drink though. He is still in the fog big time though. I was going to Plan B, and then today things got better for me so I thought I might stay in Plan A for just a little longer. I got my sh** together today and I held my composure and we had a nice mid morning together. I am hoping that this will continue and then when I do Plan B, he will miss the family conversations and the family times and realize what a complete and utter a** he is. Of course I have to be ready for recovery, because I have to be the big strong one. It is easy to come back, but it isn't easy to forgive someone. I don't even know if I could go there right now, I say I could, but I really don't know. Do you think you could go there? Do you think recovery right now is possible for you? It sounds to me like Plan B is good for you to get yourself together and stop making him think you need him so much. Try to live life while you are plan Bing I know easier said than done. I freak out when I think about Plan B too. I hope you are feeling better tonight. You are in my prayers and thoughts. Hugs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MelodyLane,

I know you may feel like you're droning on and on about the same thing, but I truly think I have to hear certain things like 100 times before they make it through the tough outer layer that encases my brain. Your input IS appreciated, and listened to. Just stay with me. I'm trying.

As for that mental masturbation award, I believe you asked me several posts ago if I was trying to win it. Am I getting closer??

I can only hope and pray that my WH has just as hard a time forgetting 23 years as I do. But because I'm not in his brain, and because he's so off in another universe right now, I get my fears that maybe he can just let go in the snap of one's fingers and not look back.

HopelessinNY,

Maybe I won't feel this way later, but yes, I do truly believe I could forgive him for what he's done without huge problems. That doesn't mean all the hurt would just disappear and trust would be magically restored in an instant. But we've been through some pretty tough times together and I've forgiven a lot over the years that others told me the couldn't get past.

And he's forgiven things of mine, too. I had a VERY brief P/A some 14 years ago, but I refused to do N/C with the guy. We still spoke on the phone and I met him occasionally for lunch off and on for years, and he actually will still call from time to time just to see how I am. He's remarried and they're very happy, and I'm very happy for him, and his semi-annual phone call to me now revolves around asking how many dogs and horses they have, but I have never had the guts to say, "So stop calling me now, OK?". BAAAADDD of me. And now looking back, I know that really had to have hurt my husband, because he knew we still spoke from time to time.)

So now who's the bad girl? And see why I'm so afraid WH will never give up OW? (Not that I would have ever forgotten my H or left him for the OM. Not worth it, not compatable, and never really even crossed my mind for any length of time. Met him when DD was a baby--was feeling ugly and depressed and alone. NO ONE is immune from A's if they're not careful. I learned a LOT there. And it was that A that caused my H to have his "revenge" A that ended up entangling him for 18 months.)

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
[QB] MelodyLane,

I know you may feel like you're droning on and on about the same thing, but I truly think I have to hear certain things like 100 times before they make it through the tough outer layer that encases my brain. Your input IS appreciated, and listened to. Just stay with me. I'm trying.

As for that mental masturbation award, I believe you asked me several posts ago if I was trying to win it. Am I getting closer??

I can only hope and pray that my WH has just as hard a time forgetting 23 years as I do. But because I'm not in his brain, and because he's so off in another universe right now, I get my fears that maybe he can just let go in the snap of one's fingers and not look back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know I love ya, LL!! But you did win that MM award! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As far as your H forgetting you, I don't think you have much to fear there. You would be shocked if you understood how very dependent most alcoholics are upon their spouses. They may treat them like dirt and blow them off. But BOY HOWDY, when they think they might lose that spouse, things quickly change!! It is amazing!

See, alcoholics are really just kids in grown up bodies. Your H is an alcoholic so he has never matured like a normal adult because he has had some type of crutch for most of his life. So, don't worry about him forgetting you. He is a boy who needs hims mommy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your H is an alcoholic so he has never matured like a normal adult because he has had some type of crutch for most of his life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And for good or for bad, I do know 100% that crutch has been me since he was 16 yrs old. Through his parents' divorce, through two OWI's through accidents, through a previous P/A, through surgeries, through icky-sicky times, etc, etc. To pick him up when he made boo-boo's. To fix the finances that he screwed up. Yes, that has been me.

And two, his IC (who he's now quit seeing because he was hitting too close to home) has told me (I see him also) that he is concerned about WH's development--that at 38 years old he is very immature and "stunted". Told him I knew that, and can accept that, if he'd just ditch the OW and start working on the M.

So you hit home on these two points. May you PLEASE be right on the point of him not forgetting me. I am just hopeful that OW with her no job and no $ can't be his crutch forever.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
I am just hopeful that OW with her no job and no $ can't be his crutch forever.

LL [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, so you realize that he needs a crutch. Right now the OW is trying out for position of first crutch. Can she fill your shoes, LL? You know she can't.

But he doesn't know that.

Nor does he HAVE to know it as long as you are hovering in the wings, ever ready to give him a mommy fix. Let him feel DEPRIVED. Let him be scared, LL. Please lead him to the consequences of his actions, instead of protecting him from them. Let him find out that OW can't possibly meet all his needs.

And see, you have an advantage here, LL. You are a sober and rational [somewhat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ] woman that can outsmart him with strategy. You know what the score is. He, on the other hand, lives at the whim of his WARPED, drug induced emotions.

He can't think his way out of a paper bag because he just REACTS to the emotion of the moment. This is something you can use to your advantage by stopping reacting to him. LET HIM REACT for a while while you follow your strategy.

This one probably hits home the most. I needed a "fix"--hadn't heard from him, and just flat out screwed up.

next time you need a fix..
take your number 7 cast iron griswald skillet.....

and smack yourself between the eyes with it...

It will be less painful than exposing yourself to the bubonic plague man... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARK

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

ML,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are a sober and rational [somewhat] woman that can outsmart him with strategy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad you qualified that statement a bit. Sober, most definitely. Rational...you've figured that out.

Ark,

No cast iron in my house. It scratches the ceramic cooktop. However, I do have a very heavy solid marble rolling pin. That'd do the trick, wouldn't it?

Okay, guys, I've pulled out of my miserable funk a little because you've given me a little hope. I'm still afraid that OW may grow up and change and become what WH is looking for if she figures out her controlling behavior was driving him nuts.

(I realize that it's probably not common for a relationship to take off and blossom into something permanent after the OW was starting to really grate on the WH, but up to this point, everything has surprised me and turned out differently than I expected, and he's certainly still with her. And complicated by his drinking, maybe she'll just look wonderful through the beer-colored goggles and he'll be with her forever.)

Nevertheless, I have not called tonight. After getting the snippy version of "hello", I haven't even desired to. I'm sure you'll be counseling me not to again within a day or two.

BTW: 3/8 is his birthday. I know I shouldn't recognize it at all, right? But should the kids send cards or call? (PS...3/10 is OW's birthday--her party is at an upscale strip club--that's sort of an oximoron, isn't it? Rumor has it sometime in the recent past she was pulled on stage with a stripper and went totally nude. Perhaps I should have a P.I. being a fly on the wall that night just in case a truly interesting photo came available and WH wasn't there to see it. Not sure if he's going--her "cuddliness" with other women was making him very nervous last I knew. Maybe he's past that now.)

LL

Hi lordslady

Just a thought I had reading your post...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm still afraid that OW may grow up and change and become what WH is looking for if she figures out her controlling behavior was driving him nuts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That would be good, you know? I don't think that any grown up lady, besides you, would want to be with your H as he is now. I say this, because of course you have a long history with him, and a family. Something the OW lacks. And given the mental state your H is now, when she grows up I can almost guarantee you she is going to run big time!.

On the other hand, she might never grow up, like your H. That is were your plan B comes to play. It's amazing what a plan B can do to an alcoholic. I would go if possible, go to some Al-Anon meetings or even AA. Don't trust me on that, let the alcoholics tell you first hand how they growed up, what made them. Maybe you can understand better then, the plan B issue, at least with your H

Take good care

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by matilde:
<strong> I would go if possible, go to some Al-Anon meetings or even AA. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Matilde is exactly right. Those meetings would help you tremendously.

I know--and I really, TRULY do intend to get to Alanon. (Along with exercising --ML, I did buy another DVD (VCR tapes are just not available anywhere anymore--gonna' have to do it in front of the kids in the family room, I guess). This one is more sculpting and less cardio. All that along with the painting class I'd like to find somewhere and take...

And this all when I'm no longer working until 9-10pm like I did again last night. I am truly exhausted.

LL

Oh yeah, and darn it--"un-black" again this morning.

I got out of the shower and my phone was ringing. I never think to look at caller ID. I just answer. It was WH. Just wanted to let me know he got the note I mailed him about DD's school pickup times. I was guilty of asking if this was his first day back to work, and telling him I was glad he was feeling better, but that was it. Very short, unemotional, uneventful conversation.

I haven't had caller ID for very long. I have to remember to look at it.

LL

Have to learn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> to look at <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> phone screen when <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> it rings!!!

Yep, answered again just a few minutes ago. This is just NOT going as planned. However, please interpret fogspeak for me and tell me if any rays of hope can be gleaned from it, or if it's all still blah, blah, blah (and tell me if I at least did semi-okay handling it).

Jist of conversation, not word for word:

him: are you still at work?

me: yes.

him: are you seeing someone?

me: as in therapy, or dating?

him: dating.

me: no, should I be? do you want me to?

him: no.

me: i'm still married. i have no intention of dating until and unless I divorce.

him: have you talked to (mutual friend)? I haven't heard from her all week.

me: yes, some about DD. we don't agree on my dealing with our situation, so don't discuss it.

him: it's hard for me not to talk to you. I miss you.

me: i miss you, too, but you understand why I asked what I asked?

him: yes, you don't have to repeat it.

him: would you ever consider doing something with me some night?

me: if you've broken all contact with her and can assure me of it, yes, I would consider it. Until that time, no, I won't see you.

him: i'm in such a tangled mess. I don't know how to get out of it.

me: yes you do.

him: i fear for my life sometimes. i'm not sure what she or her friends are capable of.

me: that is scary, and you'd need to be careful and take precautions, but you need to decide who you will be happy with. you will have to choose one of us; you can't have us both. eventually I will move on with my life if this continues forever.

him: i know who i'd be happy with.

me: if you want her and she can meet your needs, then go to her.

him: she can't meet my needs. I was having panic attacks all day Tuesday.

me: it's your decision. I won't force anything. but I will tell you, i understand it won't be easy for you, and I will tell you there is a great message board you could be on where there are people from both sides, and it's very supportive.

him: i really do love you.

me: i love you, too

(end of conversation)

I know I gave him another fix, but do you think the part about missing me and her not meeting his needs is all fogspeak to cake-eat? Or is he starting to maybe see a teeny ray of sunshine?

Bottom line: Is there still hope at this point for this marriage?

Yes, I've really blown the no-contact thing because I am stupid and answer phones without thinking and do NOT have Ark's quick wit. However, as hard as it is, I AM sticking with the no-see-him plan totally.

LL

LL

He is testing your resolve. He is testing the waters. He says he fears what the OW or her friends will do, he says he doesn't know how to end things, he says he knows who he would be happy with. Yet he continues the A.

He is making that choice, he is not a child, he is an adult. How many times will you let him manipulate you. It took you 23 years to learn about him, don't you think he knows how to get to you?

Sure you failed this test, doen't mean you need to fail them all. Next time he tries this game, just refer to the Plan B letter and hang up. Nothing more, nothing less. He is an adult and has to know that you deserve more respect then he is giving you.

LL, your stronger then you think you are. Please start using it. There is hope for your M. There is more hope for you. You do have to admit that you really can't return to the way the M was, it has to improve it has to be redeemed.

Hope tomorrow brings a better day for you.

God Bless

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says he fears what the OW or her friends will do </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am in agreement with what you said about him "testing the waters", though I need marriage hope so will also take it as a sign he still has a flicker of feelings for me.

However, the quote about his fears of what she or friends might do is probably a very valid fear. I worried about it months ago--fears that, because she and her friends have nothing to lose and her not-yet-ex-husband spends most of his time in jail for probation violations and/or beating the crap out of people, that my house might get vandalized, I might be missing windows, my cars might be damaged, or worse yet--someone might be physically hurt. It's not just WH I worry about--it's the kids and me, too. She and friends are a group of very psycho poor-white-trash people. Did I not read in JazzeyGirl's signature that OW tried to kill her H? This is a fear I have (and apparently he has to a degree, too).

I'm not sure what the protection is, though. Back when I was worried about our house, a friend said, "well, if it's vandalized, you know exactly who to send the cops to." True, but if it's a pile of ashes on the ground, a lot of good that really does.

He did say (forgot to put it in the last post), he's really sorry he ever walked into this mess. That's the first time he's uttered those words. Maybe he is starting to see.

However, you are totally right. I can't keep talking to him. (Where is that skillet that Ark suggested I keep to bean myself? It probably wouldn't look very "work appropriate" on my desk. Perhaps I need a large, heavy paperweight.)

It was REALLY hard to not give in when he asked if we might do something some night. I do miss him terribly. But I did hold my ground there, and did so without showing any emotions. Just calmly told him no, not until all contact is broken.

I still think--"What if he gets tired of this, and of me, and does just give up and go to her permanently."

I had like 10 great minutes after the call when I said to myself, "I think maybe this marriage is going to make it--he's seeing light". And then I convinced myself it's all fog and that it could just go downhill from here.

Again, here I am sitting in the stupid office all alone. It's time to pack up the remaining things I have, grab the laptop, and go home where at least I can be surrounded by dogs that will keep my mind off things until the kids get home from their friends.

LL

<small>[ March 04, 2004, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

He is starting to get scared, LL. Next time he calls, ask him if he has got rid of the OW. Ask him if he has started AA and stopped drinking. If not, tell him to not contact you again until he has.

He is running scared so DON'T YOU BLOW it now by caving into him! He wants some reassurance very badly so he can continue being bad. Don't give up before you have all you want. He will deliver, LL. Make him deliver, LL. You have the control.

ML,

I hope you're right. I told you guys I'm not strong. (Maybe strong when it comes to all I've tolerated in life without going nuts, but not strong when it comes to putting my foot down.) Evidenced by the way my WH and my kids walk on me, and by how I'm still sitting here at work becaue I don't have the guts to just say "I can't do this anymore!".

I do want to go to Alanon. I really do. I bought another exercise video. I want to tone up. I really would like to find a painting class. There are things I want to do for me. I see that as teeny-tiny growth in finding a life. I've also started to get slightly better acquainted with other women from church through all this. AND, I've put my all into pushing for my DD's education and finally have her in a school that at this point seems to be working (albeit an Alternative HS).

So I'm trying to tell myself I have grown, and I can do this too. It just takes a lot of time for me to gain any strength.

LL

Congratulations on going into Plan B. Now it is time for alanon. Even if you do it online, it will help. No one knows what you are going through like others who are going through the same thing. It would be good support for you.