</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> Thanks for all the smiley's, guys.

SS,

You can SO be the lighthouse of safety and warmth for him. You just need to put in some elbow grease.

The only problem here is that I want to be that lighthouse of savety and warmth, but I can't if I'm in a true Plan B, can I? If we never speak (even if he feels like he need to), I'm confused as to how he can see my light.

Heck, I'm just confused in general sometimes.

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't be a lighthouse of anything if you are waffling and embroiled in this insanity. He can come see your light if he dumps the OW and quits drinking. Whats so confusing about that?

This story is simple textbook case of why there is no MC for person's dealing with an addiction.

The Harley principles could never be implemented for reasons that are so obvious here.

Plan A just enables the person to keep drinking and never having a reason to stop.

Plan B makes ZERO impact on a person whose brain is pickled by the alcohol. They will swing from the whiny pitiful "you don't even care about me if you won't talk to me" drunk...to the angry belligerent "ok...fine...F You" drunk.

In ll's case...

Plan A is not only enabling...but it allows him to draw on a bottomless pit of emotional needs being met...without anything being done to change. He would be happy as a lark...life would be good for him.

Plan B is a lost cause because ll is nowhere near ready for it. She is not protecting what little bit of love she has for him. She has lost none. She is not withdrawing from him....she is wanting him now more than ever and that will thwart any success of Plan B.

So, I guess what I am saying is MY opinion is that the ruse of a Plan B should just be discarded. Try withdrawing yourself on a smaller scale...as in not meeting his emotional needs....but be prepared when he calls to simply reinterate that you love him...want him back...but want him to get sober...and STAY sober...and to get rid of the OW. I know that what I am suggesting is very similar to Plan B but it isn't as stringent. She has proven that she is not ready to hold fast to this Plan B by the constant waffling and breaking of that plan.

She will reach a point where she IS ready to hold to it. He hasn't done enough to her at this point that she has lost any love or him..or needs to protect the love she has left. SHE has to reach bottom too.

JMHO
committed

Good post committed!

I agree committed...
excellent post...

the thing is lordslady...needs to really tighten strengthen and BELIEVE in her boundaries...

I am so afraid that she still believes doing "this or that" or not doing "this or that" will be the cause of her husbands choices and actions...

I also am greatly afraid that she will take him almost any way she can get him...

but I agree she is not doing plan b...perhaps because she is not ready for it...but continued exposure to the other bull serves no one either...

what about family time...exposure to family functions....only..with no alone time...and a set amount of time...and no expectations he will come or not come...

hmmmmmm

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong> Good post committed! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">stillsosad,

Wow...thank you. I have to admit...everything I learned on here I learned from MelodyLane. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> I agree committed...
excellent post...


I also am greatly afraid that she will take him almost any way she can get him...

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ark^^,

Thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I also believe that she will take him any way that she can get him right now. Right now, that's a bad thing...any other time that wouldn't be so catastophic.

committed

For what it is worth, I concur with all you wise posters.

LL, sorry I was so hard on you. I promise, everything I am asking you to face and do in your life are things I have already faced and done in mine.

As far as the YOU stuff. With your faith, your kids, yourSELF. I do not preach what I do not practice.

But, you might not be ready. And that is OK. Give yourself time. The seeds have been planted. As Pep has told me before, the garden is planted and watered, it will not to any good for me to stand there and yell at them to hurry up and grow!

Take care. We do all love and care for you. We just want you to have a better, happier life than you do now. We can sense your pain and confusion and hopelessness.

HUGS! SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Give the Harley's a try. From what I understand, Dr. harely's background is in addiction counseling. From that background he discovered that A's are like an addiciton and he applied some of these same techniques he was using with addicts to WS's.

What's the worst that can happen if you call...they tell you they can't help and refer you to someone who can?...

Oh golly, oh gee...I hate to even post because I'm going to get NAILED by all of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

But you don't know how much I rely on you (and how much I feel I found this site not on my own but with God's help). You can't give me good advice if I'm not honest about what I did. But I just read all of your posts from today and it's weird--it's almost like they were meant for what I'm about to confess to.

(Kinda' sounds like I'm confessing to murder or something, doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

No, not that bad. I agree with all of you that I am having a very hard time trying (and FAILING) to fully implement Plan B because I do still feel so much love for my WH. But I had held to not physically laying eyes on him since the day I gave him my letter - 2/25 - almost 3 weeks.

Blew that yesterday evening. He left a message asking if I made it home from work okay. We got 15" of heavy, wet snow yesterday (very unusual for us, especially at this time of year) and my car is awful in snow. He was concerned, and I felt I should at least let him know that I was actually still at work waiting for traffic to clear, in case my car decided to do another 180 like I already have twice this winter.

So I called and told him I was here and that I was delaying because I wasn't looking forward to clearing the foot of snow off my car which was parked on the roof of the parking garage. He offered very nicely to come park on the street, walk up to the 5th floor, find my car and do it for me. As I sat there in my dress heels thinking of how nice it'd feel to have snow and ice in them from sloshing through the snow, I decided I was a wimp and I'd accept. Besides, being the "knight in shining armour" seems to be one of the things that appeals to him about OW. She is needy. I am pretty self-suffucient generally.

So, he came and cleared my snow, moved my car down a couple floors and under the roof and called me. I probably should have just said "thanks" and let him go on his way, but I asked if he would be uncomfortable saying "hi".

So the entire walk to the garage I'm praying, asking myself if I was going against anything in the Bible, and second guessing that statement and almost hoping that he chickened out and left. But he was still there in the car with it running when I came out.

Initially we didn't say much. I asked about his dad. He told me he knew nothing yet about surgery and that his family would probably be more comfortable seeing me in the hospital right now than seeing him. I filled him in on my dad's rapidly worstening dementia. We talked a little about the kids.

Then he started to cry. He told me how much he misses me and the kids and the dogs and the house, and that the apartment is driving him crazy because it's not home. I told him I would love to have him home, but reiterated that it will not happen as long as OW is in the picture. He did not disagree with me, didn't blame me for anything--just sat there and nodded, and then said "if I live that long".

I asked if he was meaning he was suicidal. He said no, but that he can't eat, can't sleep, or anything and that he feels awful. (Good--guilt and stress, I hope).

He hugged me and we kissed (I know...BAD!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) but at least there was no sign at all of booze in him. No, he's NOT healed (Melody, I'm well aware of this!) but at least I was talking to him during a lucid moment.

Other than the above, we did NOT talk about the OW or what he does when he's not with me. We just focused on us. I did ask early on if I should be expecting D papers. He said he has no intention of filing.

When he left, I found a note written on the back of an invoice from his shop. He'd obviously written it thinking I wasn't going to see him.

I don't have it with me but went something like this:

LL, this is as close as I could come to a card on short notice. I stand back and look at my life and wonder, "How the f*** did I get to the place I'm in now?" The sermon on Sunday (he apparently went to church with OW), the family thing (not sure what he meant here), and taxi driving (hauling her kids) is driving me insane! I think about you and the kids all the time. I wonder if I can ever live up to your expectations though??? More thought on that later. I love you all.
-----------------------------------------------

So, I know I blew it big time. Feel free to say whatever you think is appropriate. I have probably extended this mess to eternity. But I felt like we had the best 5-10 minutes together that we've had in two months. There were no LB's. I think we both came away knowing how much the other one still loves them. He didn't get angry, didn't cast any blame on me, but was just very calm, as was I.

Where do we go from here? I'm not sure. I am going to continue to go to Al-Anon. I do NOT want him back in my house if he's still in contact with her. I do not want gory details of their relationship. I do not want blame cast on me for things I am not guilty of. I do not want to deal with him or be around him right now if he's drunk. These things I DO know!

But that's about all I know.

As for counseling the the Harley's, I am still considering at least one session. Like SHMI said, what's the worst they can do? Tell me they can't help me and refer me on? I have money to do one or two sessions without a problem.

I guess right now I'm just your little "lab rat". I'm not sure what the best plan is for me. I don't want to go back to being a complete doormat. (Ark, that comes to your point about setting boundaries). Having him out of the house and having our contact limited, even if we still have been talking some, is much easier on me than having him still "living there" but gone every night and me wondering if he is coming home. I have actually been able to sleep without sleeping pills for a month now.

My heart just still aches because I don't know long term if the aliens will ever let him go. I know, all of us in this situation feel the same. It's just taking me a lot longer to get the strength that some of those on here seem to have. (With his earlier A, it took me 9 months to take any steps at all, so I guess I've done a little better this time considering we're only about 5 months into it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Thoughts? Cyber-slaps? (come on SS--have at it!)
Just please don't banish me from the board. I need you guys!

LL

Lord's lady - My pastor always says it's not how far you've come, but where you started.

You have been in a disfunctional marriage for awhile and I for one think you are doing fine. Just keep going in the right direction. As you get your self-esteem back, you will get stronger.

All of this didn't happen overnight and it won't go away overnight.

LL, don't beat yourself too hard. If I were you, I would be even worse. I couldn't control myself. I think that is one of the reason I don't want to go to Plan B. It is bery bery tough.

Now I'm sitting on info I'm not sure I like knowing, because it tells me things may be on the edge of going one way or the other.

Phone rang on my way home. Answer? Don't answer? Answer? Don't? Oh heck..Answer...

He needed an ear big time. He was so uptight he'd have to stop every now and then and recompose because he was stuttering so bad (and not alcohol stutter--totally anxious about to have a stroke stutter). I've noticed it more and more as his stress is increasing. Bet his blood pressure was to the roof!

OW has been living at his place last three days because she didn't do her Bday party strip club thing her friend planned and her friend (the one she was living with) got mad and they're now not speaking. So she's homeless. WH doesn't want her living in his apt because she violates the code but she's there. She and baby are driving him nuts. She's been calling around trying to find houses outside the city that they could rent for the same price (so that they could live together). He doesn't want that because as he says, he knows if she moves in, he'll never have the guts to just move out and stick her with the rent. But I can tell he's really afraid she'll talk him into something in a weak moment.

Oh, she's also looking for a place that accepts pets because she knows he misses our dogs and she wants him to be able to have one of them. Newsflash to her--There is no way I'll let Bailey and Maya be separated--they're adopted sisters and they would be really lonely apart. (Not to mention, the one he loves the most is somewhat dominant and I think would be a danger around a baby if not watched closely.)

He's freaking out. Says she's moving too fast. Says he does NOT want to jump out of his own family and into an instant new family with a 14 month old. Says he knows she's totally relying on him to support her and he's trying to get her to snap out of her depression and start taking responsibility for her own life (I know, I know...BIG laugh on that one because who else is not taking responsibility for his...but I held it in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Anyway, he did meet her mom and step-dad over the weekend. He liked them (DARN!), but her sisters and what he called one of their kids, the Devil's spawn, really drove him nuts. He said her mom goes to church and sings in the choir. I asked if she knew the whole situation with him and he said she only knows he separated.

Okay, so he's trying hard to convince OW to call her mom and see if she can move back in there for a while. She lives about 30 minutes north of town, but works here in the city and could drive OW with her if she got a job. In fact, he found out that there is a family business of some type that her mom, step-dad, one sister and maybe a grandfather work at. He asked her why she doesn't work there. She stammered around and said she doesn't know. I do (and he does, too). She simply doesn't want to work. She wants someone to support her.

He vented on and on...Where is her money anyway? She's never put gas in my tank. I bought $100 in groceries today because the refrigerator was empty. I just sat and listened. No need to make judgements and turn him the wrong way.

He hasn't given notice on his apt yet, so is still paying at least through 4/30.

I told him again, he cannot come home if he's still in contact with her. (Nor is he asking to move back). But I did tell him I thought it would be a wonderful idea if she could go live with her mom, and not just because I want them to end things.

I saw it as a chance for her to live with someone who has better morals, get a chance to build up some money, and basically get her life back on track. And I told him, she's only 26, if she gets her morals (BIG "IF") and things together, there are a lot of guys her age who could make her very happy. He said "I know that. I can't fix her life. I don't have the money. I can't support her on what I make."

He obviously still cares a great deal about her emotionally, but he's running very scared right now. She's pushing fast to get them moved in together and he doesn't like it.

I did ask him if he felt he was ever this strung out or unhappy when he was home and he said, "Oh H*** no!"

So basically...I just listened. But I know in a matter of a month or so, he could either freak out and give her up, or he could get sucked in to feeling really sorry for her and renting a place with her and never have the guts to boot her, just because he wants to try and "save" her and I could be out forever.

His "help the needy" quality is usually a good one (even if he has given a lot of his money to bums), but in this case, it's really screwing things up. I wish he could care a little less about what happens to her. She's an adult, but I think the baby causes him to feel more responsible for making sure she's not homeless. (And again, my being so darned self-sufficient finacially and physically is to my disadvantage here, I think.)

I think I did a pretty decent job hot LBing again. The only snipping he did was telling me to "shut up and listen". It's a common statement and one that is well deserved, because he'll say something and I'll butt in with an idea. BAD habit I have to break.

All I can do now is pray and try and remain calm and backed off. I'm not going to go chasing him.

Please don't be angry with me. Ark and all of you....please help me be strong with those boundaries. Any and all advice is welcome.

(And Believer, can you please teach me how to post a simple two-sentence post instead of my novels??)

LL

Why post short sentences? These posts are as much for you to put your thoughts and feelings in writing as it is for folks to read. And beleive me, there are quite a few more people who are reading your posts than are answering...aren't there lurkers?

Every situation is different, and every Plan B is different...there is no 'perfect' Plan B. The conversation you had with your H was a unique opportunity for him to get his needs met, but also to unload. Sure, it may enable him to last a day or two longer with OW, but it also helped for you to hear that the Plan B is working...that your friend is wrong, that his misery is his own doing...not your's!

What is the next step? Time to talk with the Harley's or with a good M Coach like Cerri or Starfish. Perhaps when you make an appointment you can call H up and say "I've made a phone appt on **** at **** time with a counselor and would like you to join me to see what they have to say, would you like to join me?" Or maybe make an appt with someone local, maybe the al-anon people have suggestions (the married ones).

Maybe in the same conversation with him you can ask, "Is there anything I can do to help?" instead of interjecting your advice. Giving unsolicited advice is like giftwrapping poop and expecting the person to be happy about it.

Down the road you will want to tell him (perhaps if he asks you if you have any ideas), the OW's mom deserves to know the truth and you will want to call her (no questions about this).

When's the next al-anon meeting? Sunday?

ll -

I didn't have time to read your post, but I wanted to tell you that the new title of your thread cracks me up!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am so glad you have come to a place right now that works for you.

SS

Giving unsolicited advice is like giftwrapping poop and expecting the person to be happy about it.

Uh oh...I must win the award for the best poop gift-wrapper then. Along with butting in, unsolicited advice is probably my other BIG hangup.

I fear that by talking and listening to him, I am opening myself up for more hurt (because it leads to expectations and I need to continually remind myself to not have any.) I do want so much to believe he'll dump her, but it may never happen, and I'm not ready to accept that, especially now that we are communicating in a rather peaceful fashion.

He did leave a message on my cell this morning that just said "Hello. Just hoping you have a good day." So I sent text back so as not to interrupt him at work saying the same and signing it, "Love, T"

I do know that if we do attempt a trial run of perhaps dinner together someday, it will be at the house with the kids there and it WON'T include anything more intimate than hugs. And he will NOT spend the night. I am not willing to do that--boundaries! And if this continues this way for very long and he's still with her and seeing her every weekend I'll have to rethink things again.

But I guess for now--one day at a time, and keep praying, and try hard not to give advice or pass judgements or in other ways LB if at all possible. And I am still keeping my contact as minimal as possible and am not calling him.

And yes, the next Al-Anon is Sunday night. I may eventually try and find a noon meeting downtown that is a bigger group, so that I can alternate depending on my mood.

SS, please let us know how your meeting went today!

LL

LL, I know how you feel. I can't wait to get out of this situation soon. But GOD has his own schedule. We just learn to be patient. I keep praying for you, NY, Believer, SS and all other MB friends.

L&H, (and all of you guys),

The first thing I wanted to say is that I drive by this church a couple times a day that has one of those message boards out front. They change it weekly. The new message isn't anything witty or smart--it simply says "Put Christ first in your life."

How simple...and yet how difficult sometimes, at least for me. I realize I need to keep him first, and then everying else should fall into place. I just fight too much.

Anyway, I saw my IC today (short session because I had to take DD to doctor for a bite she got from someone else's pet rat).

Filled him in on my failure to hold to N/C with WH the last several days. Told him at least we're speaking in friendly tones now, but I'm worried (because it's in my nature and I HATE that about myself) that he's just trying to get on my good side and will still end up moving to a bigger place with her because he's such as sucker when comes to helpless women, and she's such a con artist.

I'm sort of feeling a 'catch 22' here. I don't want him back home if he's still seeing OW, but on the other hand (and this was even suggested by my IC today), if he did move back home, it would be a great excuse to end it then with her. It's just taking a HUGE chance (and I'm not even remotely sure he'd consider it).

My IC said it might be worth a try, because the worst that could happen is that he moves back, things start back up, and he has to move out and we're back where we are right now. I just don't want to go through the hurt of taking him back and then having to have him move out again.

Not sure what to say. Not sure what to do. Ark, I could use some of your wise and witty advice about boundaries, etc. right about now, in case he calls. I will no doubt talk to him by sometime tomorrow because I believe his father's prostate cancer surgery is scheduled for tomorrow.

I'm bummed--coming down with a bad cold so hoping it goes away soon. I want to go visit them in the hospital.

LL

<small>[ March 17, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Ok, whoa, whoa, whoa, no more text messaging, and no more talking about getting together until she is OUT of the picture and a NC letter is sent.

He sends another text message, ignore, ignore, ignore. It's sweet, yes, but then it makes him better able to handle the situation with OW...he starts to think, "I can help her for awhile...my W will be waiting for me, she still loves me."

Can you call or talk with someone? The Harley's? A coach? Perhaps next time DH texts you send back a two word reply "Marriage Counseling?"

SHMI,

From an earlier post of yours...

Down the road you will want to tell him (perhaps if he asks you if you have any ideas), the OW's mom deserves to know the truth and you will want to call her (no questions about this).

Who is the "you" who will want to call her. My WH, or me? I don't even know her last name or how to contact her. (Though once I found out a little about her, I thought if things don't change in the next month or two, I might have to go the PI route myself to find out some of this info and fill her in.)

no more talking about getting together until she is OUT of the picture and a NC letter is sent.

That's my catch 22--I'm trying to figure out how to make it easier for him to not feel like he's just tossing her to the curb (giving him some incentive to get her butt out of his life) by offering him a way to do it. However, I am continuing to make it clear (probably to the point of annoyance) that if he comes home she must be out, gone, no more, or it wont happen.

He called (and yes I did answer because I was awaiting FIL's surgery news--it's now reschedule for 4/2--yeah, my cold will be gone by then.) and filled me in on the latest. No luck getting OW to her mom's yet. She's now contacted her friend back whom she was living with. (I still say Mom is a better option and he agrees wholeheartedly, but she's going to dig her feet in hard because I think she sees the writing on the wall).

Says he HAS to get her out of his place. She and baby sleep all day and then are up all night when he's trying to sleep. He can't play his video game (something he LOVES to do) because her live-in boyfriend of several years ago was really into them so it upsets her when WH plays. He can't watch TV in the evening because baby has to watch some cartoon videos in order to go to sleep. He can't make any phone calls to any of his friends from the apartment because she keeps him under her thumb all the time.

He even said she was trying to figure out what was wrong with him last night and he told her he couldn't take this anymore, that she's not good for him and he's not good for her.

(Goodie, goodie--maybe she actually needs to live there for a while longer!!) He admitted that this is killing him and that what started out as fun is no longer fun. I asked him if he'd be happy if they got a house together, considering he'd still have the same restrictions and would then be giving up his wife and kids eventually ad going through a painful divorce. His response, "I'd be slitting my own throat."

I think he's temporarily seeing a teeny bit of light. But will it last, or will alcohol or getting her back away from him for a while refog him.

Question to all: IS THERE STILL HOPE?? I don't think I want to go totally cold right now, do I, if he's opening up? But I need boundaries, Boundaries, BOUNDARIES!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (Goodie, goodie--maybe she actually needs to live there for a while longer!!) He admitted that this is killing him and that what started out as fun is no longer fun. I asked him if he'd be happy if they got a house together, considering he'd still have the same restrictions and would then be giving up his wife and kids eventually ad going through a painful divorce. His response, "I'd be slitting my own throat."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes, yes, this is it!!! This is what WILL happen (hopefully not the slitting his throat part...)

Next time you talk, time to give him KISA (Knight in shining armor) talk and then reiterate your Plan B. Say something like, "I need you, you are my H and I love you, your DD needs you, I am lost without you, I am miserable and terribly hurt and sad. I have a hard time working, and cry every day. It hurts to talk with you and get my hopes up. I know if you truly wanted to come back home you would have moved OW out of the picture. You may feel like she needs you more, but we need you more. Please don't call again until you have broken up with her and are having no more contact."

It's EASY for him to break things off with her...it really is. Don't excuse him. Look how easy it was for him to leave his family... He can do it, he just hasn't reached the right misery level. And he will take longer getting there if you continue to talk to him and fulfill his need for conversation...

Reiterate again and again that it hurts you to talk with him while you know he is living with the OW. Let him see you cry. He thinks you are holding up....hah! (Although you are doing very well.)