LL, Please listen to SHM. She is right. You are giving him the sign that he can sit in the fence. I know this is hard. But you are almost there.

Deleted my long post... Too long, too stupid, and didn't need to be here.

LL

<small>[ March 18, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Slightly Shorter version:

Icky day. Head cold. Miserable. Tired. Cranky...

DD--no school today, so opted to sneak out before I got up and scare crap out of me. Filed runaway report, based on some journal info found that made me think she was on her way to visit someone in Nebraska. Showed up around noon. Had been hanging out in her previous school. Not allowed on grounds there, but no one noticed her. (Strike against that school.) Serious problems with this girl. Very worried about her. Want to get her help, but one so far seems to be able to help. Have yet another Dr's name to pursue. Not sure how to control her tomorrow or next wk on spring break. I have to work.

PARENTS--Mom found Dad yelling yesterday at someone on phone, if anyone was really there. Dementia is getting very bad very quickly. Not sure what to do. Doesn't even know Mom sometimes. Makes me very sad.

WH--called him to inform about DD to see if he had brilliant ideas. Stressed him out even more. Listening ear again, because I'm sick and tired and dumb today. OW annoying him--won't call her mom, won't get a job, has had minimal contact with friend who used to live with. WH told her at noon, if she was still welcome there, she needed to go spend some days with her.

ME--bummed. If she goes away a while, they'll just go back to normal. I was half wishing she'd be stuck in his efficience for another week or two just to drive him mad.

ME--need my boundaries. Don't want to go cold just as he appears to be pulling my direction, but don't want to share him. Won't share him.

Question--Should I still be hopeful? (I mean, I've blown every plan there is now.) If they can't live in the efficiency without him telling her she needs to go away, can they make it in a bigger place (if he goes that way, or will any place be big enough after a while?)

LL

Read HopefulinNY's thread, and especially MortarMan's responses...he's considered the Plan B expert in these parts...he's really got it down PAT!!!

You are almost there...no more contact. Every conversation you have with him puts THEM closer together, and takes away energy and love you will need for recovery.

LL

Why do you let your H vent about OW? Why are you his sounding board on this. Do you actualy approve of what he is doing now? Will you keep on "egging" on the A? What you need to tell the a##hole(WH) is that he is making the choice and its his problem and if he wants to brag about it go talk to the drunks at the bar. Yes I know he's an alcoholic, which hasn't changed either. But you really need to stop being such a doormat. It doesn't work with your WH and it doesn't help with your DD. Your H can see what he is doing to you, and seems to be proud of it. And your DD is quite willing to take advantage of the situation. You need to start demanding the respect your due as his F(faithful) wife, and devoted mother.

You need to start standing up for yourself, and finally do a true plan b. Yes, the M might end, but as it stands now it's already over. THe only thing that hasn't happened is the D papers being signed. And, from your description of the OW she will have the bigger house and all will live there, even your DD if you decide let her have her way. You need to start thinking that yes I want my M, but I am no longer willing to put up with whats going on. I can survive without my WH.

Sorry for sounding so harsh, but really why are you putting up with him telling you about his relationship problems with the OW? He knows exactly the pain and damage that is causing when he talks to you. He also knows that he has broken your spirit and that you will always come crawling like a beaten dog. I think you need to remind him that dogs bite.

LL, I really feel sorry about your day. But you do need to be tough. I know it is easy to say than do. But at some point, you got to do it.

Silverthorn,

Why do you let your H vent about OW? Why are you his sounding board on this. Do you actualy approve of what he is doing now? Will you keep on "egging" on the A?

I was sort of letting him vent because he's no longer venting about the good things they do or the fun things. He's venting about his frustration with her. I don't know, maybe this psychologically does me some good because I know he's not as happy with her as he once was and he's coming across as a lot friendlier with me than he was just a month ago.

What you need to tell the a##hole(WH) is that he is making the choice and its his problem and if he wants to brag about it go talk to the drunks at the bar. Yes I know he's an alcoholic, which hasn't changed either.

True--he is an alcoholic and will always be, whether sober or drunk. His drinking has been minimal lately which has also made him easier to talk to. He doesn't drink in bars, though.

And your DD is quite willing to take advantage of the situation.

My DD is a part of why we are where we are. She stressed both of us to the max with her disrespect. I love her, but my frustration is extreme with her anymore. It's easy for someone who's child doesn't act like her to say "you have to stand up to her and make her do this or that". The truth is, you can't. (At least I can't--because physically she's stronger than I am). She respects no one in authority, including cops and school principals. Ultimately, how do you make a 5'6" woman do something that they don't want to do, or behave in a certain way if they don't want to??

As for the house thing, OW isn't getting my house (or my dogs or anything from it). DD isn't going to live with them.

I know I'm supposed to be in Plan B (or as we further defined it, a less strict form of Plan B), but I'm afraid to just slam the door shut on his fingers right now when this is the first emotional opening-up and not berating or blaming me I've encountered since the start of this whole deal. You know, sort of like..."Okay, I'll let you partway in the door, but wait... SLAM...changed my mind. Goodbye!")That may be perceived VERY badly and could be the death of our relationship.

True, we don't have a marriage relationship right now. But the number of times he's told me he loves me over the last few days, the little note he left in my car, etc., tell me his feelings are still there for me. I don't want to squash them being Ms. Hard-a** at the wrong moment.

Right now this is not causing as much pain as it was before simply because he's not telling me how awful I am an how wonderful she is. I know if he does't end things SOON with her, though, I'm going to get really tired of it all.

I think the nail was hit on the head much earlier in a post by Committed. I still have a LOT of love left for him. When Plan B normally starts is when the person is starting to lose their love and can no longer do Plan A. They are more ready for that separation and the escape. I know my situation is different, but it is very hard to let go completely when I still do love him so much. I have backed WAY off. I am not calling him. I will not engage in any conversation where I am being blamed or where I am hearing about what is good in his and OW's life. And I've not seen him again since the one time.

It's just the phone calls. And I guess I'm stupid--just thought having someone he trusted to talk to might help him reach his conclusion faster. Like just a second ago. He called again, and simply said "Pray for strength for me. She's got all her stuff packed. I'm taking her back to her friend's house."

So I told him (pretty much ran it into the ground), "You need to make your decision. You are sitting on a fence right now. I have allowed myself to be more open to you these last few days because it seemed you were on the right path to breaking things off. If you don't go through with it very soon, I will back away again to protect myself, and you risk losing me in the end."

Maybe I've blown this Plan B. Maybe this will go on forever. But if he doesn't totally walk away from me, aren't most A's supposed to end eventually? I'm not saying I want to wait 2 years, but maybe as this continues on a little longer, if he keeps hedging and not making decisions, maybe I will finally build up enough hurt and resentment to do a really stellar Plan B. It just takes me a long time to get there, I think. I'm not one who holds grudges or gets angry about how I'm treated generally. I let it roll off me. That is making this hard, now.


L&H,

See, now I'm the one saying I'm scared, I don't want to lose him, I don't want to be alone. Now I'm the one who is really lacking strength, (and it's not even Friday 5pm--the down day I requested).

LL

Here's what I was referring to--an exerpt from Committed's post:

So, I guess what I am saying is MY opinion is that the ruse of a Plan B should just be discarded. Try withdrawing yourself on a smaller scale...as in not meeting his emotional needs....but be prepared when he calls to simply reinterate that you love him...want him back...but want him to get sober...and STAY sober...and to get rid of the OW. I know that what I am suggesting is very similar to Plan B but it isn't as stringent.

I am in each and every conversation reiterating what it will take to get us back together and me meeting ANY of his emotional needs (besides maybe that of a listening ear right now). I tell him this over, and over, until he has to be totally sick of hearing it.

She will reach a point where she IS ready to hold to it. He hasn't done enough to her at this point that she has lost any love or him..or needs to protect the love she has left. SHE has to reach bottom too.

And this, while I really hate to think of it because I really feel often like I can't drop any further into this pit, is probably very true as well. I'm not at a point yet where I need to protect love. I'd actually feel better if I could lose a little of it, I think.

LL

LL

I know it is really hard for you, all this stuff. But listen, if you did a Plan B with no contact at all and you have to go through a few days of withdrawals which I already did. They are tough, lay in bed crying all day kind of days, there will be atleast 3 of them in a row. Then it just gets easier, I don't know how or why it just does. If you don't see him or talk to him your guard goes up, and it doesn't hurt as much anymore. You are in a lot of pain and some of it you are causing. I am not trying to be mean at all. I am just saying that I know what you are feeling and I think that if you did the Plan B with NO contact you would be feeling better by now. I actually plowed my own driveway this morning. I do everything myself now, I feel so good about myself, I don't need him anymore. It is unfortunate that it took this for me to realize that I don't want to live for someone else, I want to live with someone else. I am living for me and my kids now and it feels good. Try thinking about a real Plan B, try it a day at a time. Give your heart a break, and then your mind will take a break too. ((((((HUGS))))))


NY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> I'm not at a point yet where I need to protect love. I'd actually feel better if I could lose a little of it, I think.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you are stronger than you think you are. I'm no expert, by any means, on Plan B, so I can't comment on that... I'd be wary of losing love though, that isn't sure to be more comfortable than your current situation... I think you can only do a successful Plan B if you still have your love... (ok, so one little comment...)

Topic: The ongoing saga of the everchanging and ultimately dynamic subject line...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

dewt,

You know, that is much more creative than what I've come up with. I might just change it to that soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

LL

Okay all, it just keeps changing, and I'm even more uncertain of my next move (it's like chess, only a lot more serious, and I'm not good at that either.)

Here's the latest: Call from WH this evening (and I expected it after the noon call about moving OW back to her friend's place). I'm not sure where things stand, exactly.

He was VERY down and VERY angry and just miserable to talk to. Snapped at me, etc. Then he said "this is really tough". He went on to say he took OW back to her friend's place and that he still has one more taxi mission (kid hauling) tomorrow night, and then he's cut free. I'm not sure if she is mad right now and is cutting him loose, or if he really did tell her he's done.

I asked him if he could get out of the taxi mission. I'm assuming it's to haul her baby to the dad's place for the weekend, but whatever it is, he said he promised he'd do it.

Will he really be done? Won't he be done? I am afraid if he sees her again tomorrow night, it'll all go back to the way it was, and I stated that. He says not. All I can do right now is wait and see.

He's at mutual friends' tonight. Rode down in the freezing cold on his motorcycle--he must be upset to need a ride that bad. (Riding has always been a calm-down for him.) I know he's drinking down there. That upsets me. But I also know he's VERY upset right now. They've parked his bike in their shed and taken his keys so even if he thought he was going to leave, he's not.

You guys know I'm hoping that this is it--that he really is breaking free. If he's not, I'm hoping that at least if it got this far this time, that the relationship can't blossom into something beautiful after this.

But finally, maybe if I give him this little chance, and if he does blow it, that will be a good lead in to a better Plan B. I can say, "I trusted you to break it off, I opened myself up, you decided not to, thus I am going back to no contact and staying there this time until you do really make a decision."

I hope that is not the case. I still don't feel strong enough. But something has to happen one way or the other. I feel like we're sort of at a turning point.

Thoughts? Am I just stark-raving mad??!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

LL

<small>[ March 18, 2004, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Friday morning update:

First, remember--weekends are my "crash" period, so I'm already nervous.

But here's all I know as of today. Talked to friend where WH went last night on his Harley. He's still there today. Too sick and too tired to go to work. Drank a LOT last night apparently, and most of it before he arrived there. So drinking is still an issue, but right now I'm not sure I'm going to get past that because he's apparently VERY distraught over the OW thing.

"friend" couldn't talk to me this morning because WH was just getting up, so hopefully someone can fill me in as to whether he really did break it off with her or not.

Trying VERY hard not go get any hopes or expectations up, but it's hard not to, too, because of course that has been a big part of my mission here--get the OW gone!

If she is gone, what do I do if he's drinking right now to cope with the withdrawal?

If she's not gone, I know what I really need to do (a much better Plan B) and I need all the strength in the world to do it.

LL

Sounds promising, but listen to the excuses you are making for his drinking? You have been going through even MORE he// and are not drinking to excess.

Tell me if I'm completely off base here, but some of the thoughts running through your mind are:

1. If she is gone I better get him moved back in here before they get back together.

2. I can put up with a little drinking, as long as OW is gone, we can work on the drinking after.

3. What if he decides he doesn't want to come home after all and finds another OW?


Here are some possible answers to these...

1. Yes, they can always get back together. But they could get back together while he is living at the house too (and did). Living away may make it easier for there to be contact, but this gives him time to set boundaries with her...and not for you to be the deterrent to their getting back together...but for him to actually make up his mind to do it, and implement it.

2. Yep, a little drinking, you've put up with before. And if he moves in, will you have ANY control over his behaviors? If you thought you did before you were kidding yourself. The drinking is something he will have to decide to stop. Is it more or less likely he will quit while he's living with you or without you...who knows. But, do you have to force the family and yourself to live with him while he's still drinking. Since you asked him not to come home until he stops, I would suggest you STRONGLY hold to this. None means none.

3. Yep, he may not too, but it's that old adage...if you love something, set it free, if it comes back, it's yours, if it doesn't, Plan B, Plan B, Plan B. You are getting good at it. And there is a possibility this will not turn out in you both staying together. But there has ALWAYS been that possibility. Like Hopeful said, in Plan B, you will have the worst days at first, then there is a self-sufficient calm.

This is a crucial time. He has been losing you over the past few weeks (months?) and hasn't cared. Now he may be acting this way because he wants to come home, or maybe acting this way just beacause the OW really does drive him nuts.

I would say don't talk to him until after Saturday's taxi service. Then ask how 'over' it is. Is he willing to have NC and write a NC letter? Is he willing to stop drinking? Is he willing to be accountable for all these? Meet with MC? Rehab? Go to AA? What do you want from him?

Cerri told me that when they are out of the house is your magic opportunity to ask for behavior changes. And please don't let them come back until these changes have REALLY taken place. I let my H move back before he really showed me he was accountable, and it's something we still struggle with.

Good luck!!! Is there a James Bond movie marathon you can go to take your mind off things on Sat.? Can you go out of town with DD...shopping trip down south for the weekend?
Keep yourself busy, you are SOOOOOOOoooooo close.

LL, I really undertsand your scare. I think that is running on me too. But day by day, I am getting more ready if he decides to move out. Somehow we have to break it. Can you hold on a little bit longer? You've been doing it for so long, do not let your plan be destroyed for not holding it long enough. Hang it there. We are all here for you.

SHMI,

You have been going through even MORE he// and are not drinking to excess.

As horribly painful as this all has been, I read in someone's post somewhere that they said they'd rather be the BS that the WS. While we'd all much rather be NEITHER, I think I almost agree. My choice is whether to try or not try to save my marriage. He has to deal with guilt, fear, total lack of self-respect, loss of someone he does love, or face loss of someone else he really loves (a very difficult choice, I'm sure.) AND he has the alcohol addiction screaming at him, too.

It's hard for me to force him to do A, B, C, D & E when I couldn't even maintain a good Plan B for more than a few days at a time.

As for your questions, #2 is the one that most runs through my mind. The others, not so much. I don't want him back at home at all if he's still seeing her. And as for #3, the first half, I think about, but it's not so much that I'm worried about him finding another OW, but just that he may decide he wants to be alone or is to afraid to come back home.

In Al-Anon, it is very apparent in the few meetings I've gone to, that try as you may to get your spouse or whomever to quit drinking, they have to do it on their own. They may, and they may not. Obviously I want mine to quit. I don't want him back drinking. But I have lived with it on and off for 23 years and it is less a fear of mine than living with an A.

Now he may be acting this way because he wants to come home, or maybe acting this way just beacause the OW really does drive him nuts.

I think it's a combination of both, actually. But unless an A dies on it's own, isn't it true that the WS may not really want to give up the deal but has to if they don't want to lose their BS? Like SAA says, don't necessarily expect them to come home and beg for your forgiveness (maybe not in those words), but basically, that you may not get an apology at all.

Can you go out of town with DD...shopping trip down south for the weekend?

I don't think we can get far enough south to really escape the cold (K.C. is about as far as is feasible over a weekend). I can't this weekend--to busy with work and I feel cruddy with a cold. Was actually thinking next weekend, though of going to Minneapolis for an overnighter to the Mall of America (I know--that's north--the wrong direction). It's something we've done as a family over spring break for the last few years, although just WH and I went last year. I'll have to see how things go. Don't have a whole lot of $ to blow, and when you take teenagers, they just sort of expect that you are a money tree.

Keep yourself busy, you are SOOOOOOOoooooo close.

I pray you are SOOOOOoooooo right. I'm a so afraid this may turn out to be nothing and they still may revive their relationship and live happily after. I'm trying hard to have faith and hold to a verse taped to my computer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Mark 11:24" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(I realize this is only if you are praying in God's will, but since he hates divorce, I do believe it is in his will.)

I just don't want to still be doing this six months or a year from now.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm a so afraid this may turn out to be nothing and they still may revive their relationship and live happily after. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I can promise you will not happen...even in their sick twisted minds if they revive this A, it will NEVER be happy. It will die a natural death, sooner or later, and your H will live with the regret the rest of his life.

You hope you won't be here 6 months to a year from now...but what if you are? What if your H doesn't get it for a long while? Is your M worth the wait?

Can you stick it out, or are you going to D right now.

And the drinking...much like commitment to the M, you can invite him back, but like ark and ML have so appropriately said, if he comes back and he is still drinking, he is not thinking about the M, nor ready to recommit, but thinking about himself. Sure you can put up with it now, but how long before he uses drinking as an excuse for some other bizarre behavior?

These decisions rest SOLELY on your shoulders, and the decisions you make will affect your family too. When he moves back you will have no control over his behavior. You don't have control now or ever, but at least you don't have to live around it or watch it every day.

Have you thought about what assurance you need to know that NC is not happening? NC letter, change his cell phone number, move?

You hope you won't be here 6 months to a year from now...but what if you are? What if your H doesn't get it for a long while? Is your M worth the wait?

At this moment, yes it is. I don't want a D. I want him back. Will I still be sane 6 months or a year from now--that is my bigger worry.

Sure you can put up with it now, but how long before he uses drinking as an excuse for some other bizarre behavior?

In our 23 year history, he's never really used it for any bizarre behavior except to be extra temperamental and to do stupid things like drive drunk. I don't like it, but I feel like by asking for total sobriety before I'll have him back (instead of asking for him to consider and discuss treatment options with me), with also asking to give up an affair that was very involved is perhaps asking him to do something more than what I could do myself. If I can't do it, how can I ask him?

Have you thought about what assurance you need to know that NC is not happening? NC letter, change his cell phone number, move?

I have thought about this some, and it is very difficult and frightening, because I always have had an issue with trust, even when I shouldn't have. I'd like him to do a N/C letter as the "grand finale". I'd also like the cell # to be changed--I don't see that this would be a huge hardship--if he argues it, I could ask "Why?". Moving is not an option. If they end contact, it will still bother me that we live in the same city, but since OW no longer lives with WH's coworker's girlfriend, the connection to his work is now gone. I don't live on the same side of the city as OW. There would really be no reason he'd need to worry about running into her at all, unless he specifically chose to.

I have also considered installing spy software on the computer to track emails and IM's and such, but am very afraid he'd detect it somehow.

I guess none of this matters until he does break things off for real. I've heard nothing more out of anyone today, so assume he's still at mutual friend's place since he didn't go to work.

The "taxi driving" was actually supposed to be tonight, not Saturday, so I should know by tomorrow if he was serious or not.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My choice is whether to try or not try to save my marriage. He has to deal with guilt, fear, total lack of self-respect, loss of someone he does love, or face loss of someone else he really loves (a very difficult choice, I'm sure.) AND he has the alcohol addiction screaming at him, too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But all his choices are CONSEQUENCES of his chosen behavior. he chose this path. You never chose to deal with his infidelity and drunkeness, he DID. You are his victim, he is a victim of nothing but his own choices. Huge difference. I assure you that the spouse of the alcoholic suffers 1000 fold what the alcholic suffers. They are facing the nightmare stone cold sober, the alcoholic is drunk. The alcoholic can bury the pain with booze, the spouse cannot.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's hard for me to force him to do A, B, C, D & E when I couldn't even maintain a good Plan B for more than a few days at a time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you can't force him to do anything and you shouldn't try. What you can - and should - do is set boundaries that protect yourself, ie: if you want to be involved with me you have to do A) XYZ and B) MNO. That is not forcing him to do anything. He then makes the choices to do A) and B) if he wants to be with you. This gives him the motivation to change if he wants to be with you.

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>