Hmmmmmmmm

He shouldnt be getting impatient with you not trusting him. After all, he has proved himself to be untrustworthy! He made his bed, had her in it, now he has to lie in it!

I dont think you LBd here. I think you were perfectly entitled to ask him that and the email he sent was unjustified.

By the way: I forgot to mention something yesterday. Dont feel ashamed of having a tattoo! I think its great! It doesnt make you any less respectable. My H2B and I both have each other's names in chinese. Both stylish and committed! hahaha

xxx

I agree. He has no place to get upset about my questions. I've tried to tell him that and I think he is getting the picture now.

I do feel like I shouldn't have hung up on him though. Sometimes I just can't help it.

Last night when I was driving back from my office (2.5 hours) He called me like 25 times. I just didn't answer the phone. Not that I was mad at him but I just didn't want to talk. I like my drive. I listened to a great book on cd (Prey...it's awesome)and I just didn't feel like talking.

So I turned my ringer off. When I got closer to home my phone was ringing non-stop...or should I say buzzing? I knew that I should have answered the phone in the beginning.

I got home and he was all worried and upset that I hadn't answered. I told him that I was fine but that I had been wrapped up in my book. He just acted funny for the rest of the night.

I know that was a huge LB. I can't explain why I didn't answer the phone. I wasn't mad at him. I just wanted to be alone.

Now I hang up on him...he must be feeling like he's in a no win situation.

True, maybe you shouldnt have hung up on him. But at the same time, he shouldnt hold these things against you.

I can understand your need for alone time. My H2B phones me at least every 2 hours when he is at work. Although that is one of the things I love about him, sometimes I like to be alone in my own little world for a while.

He is probably feeling quite insecure about you at the moment, paranoid that you are not going to come home one day.

xxx

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by heroswife:
<strong>Tell me what you would do differently? All of you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How 'bout I suggest what you ought to be doing differently 'cause I don't know if I could actually do it differently myself? We understand it is VERY difficult.

OK, here it is and you won't be surprised:

1. Stop LB'ing.
2. Stop asking him questions about OW.
3. Stop NOT answering the phone when he calls.

I believe ignoring the calls is extremely NOT Plan A like. Put yourself in his shoes about this. He gets worried, then angry. You don't need him to be angry at you!! If you don't want to talk to him, answer the first call, tell him you think it's best that you not talk to him at the moment, and tell him when you expect to be home or that you'll call him when you CAN talk.

hw - I believe you have an EXCELLENT opportunity to recover your marriage, but you are being your own worst enemy!

He and OW are wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! You are right, right, right!!!!

Do you want to be right or do you want to be married???

WAT

WAT's pulled out the zinger!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Well, do you want to be right or do you want to be married?!

Hang tight, HW, and see if she hangs herself. When the moment seems right, reveal the A to OWH and let the chaos happen. It will settle down.

I agree that not answering the phone is an LB. I know the need for solitude, but, really, didn't you get just a teensy bit of satisfaction knowing that he might be worried to death? Felt good, didn't it?

Unfortunately, if you're feeling good at his expense, then it's an LB.

The better, though more difficult approach, is radical honesty. You could have said hello and then nicely told him you were enjoying your book and would like to get back to it. Promise to talk when you got home.

If he asked if you are angry with him you can honestly say, "no, but this whole recovery thing sometimes makes me feel distant from you and I need you to just give me some alone time when that happens."

I have no problem, either, with you asking about whether he is having personal conversations with OW. OF COURSE HE IS! You've seen the change in her and you know it is happening. But use that to your advantage in a non-threatening, non-accusatory manner:

"I noticed OW got to squirming today and it struck me that she must know what is going on in our household. I know it must be awfully difficult to stick to business only, and I am not angry that you had a conversation, but I really need you to be completely honest with me when non-business conversations occur."

He needs to feel safe in telling you of all non-business contact. And when he does, you need to listen quietly. Telling him how it makes you feel is not an LB (as long as you're not throwing a plate at his head while you say it!). Asking him how he felt about a non-business conversation might open up a good conversation, too. He could be totally uncomfortable and the two of you can brainstorm ways for him to avoid this or cut things short in the future.

See, HW, if he continues to see the pain this causes you, even though he is trying hard to keep all the balls juggling in the air, and even though he sees you are trying hard to make it work, he might come to see that he needs to put in for that transfer. Right now.

Wouldn't that be nice?

~ Snow

Snow / WAT / KS -

Where would I be without your support? I don't ever want to know.

You are all right. I did some LBing yesterday. I should have answered the phone when he called. I shouldn't have hung up on him.

I tried very hard last night to make up for it. He called me during my practice last night and asked if he could come out and watch. I told him I had no clue how I got there and didn't know where to begin to give him directions. (I rode with someone else and I do not know my way around here.) I offered to put someone on the phone so they could give him directions but it would have taken about 30 minutes to get there and practice was almost over at that time.

I really think this was a huge step for him. I think he was showing me that he wanted to be with me right then. I have trouble getting him to come to my games....much less a practice! That was a very big step.

When we laid down last night I didn't do what I usually do...which is lay down next to him and say hold me. I've always had to ask for him to hold me. He rolled over and put his arm around me. Another big step. Throughout the night (I sleep lightly now) he would grab my hand and hold it. He has never done that. This morning he was in a very good mood and he hugged and kissed me several times before he went to work.

All of these things are pretty big steps for him. I'm going to try to stay the course and boost my plan A today.

I need to just stay focused. Sometimes I lose my focus and it's all down hill from there. Then I feel like sling'n a plate at his head!

I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY.I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY. I WILL NOT LOVE BUST TODAY.

Thats good that hes showing some positive signs.
Hope you are ok today.

Have you talked about his contact with OW yet as suggested? Dont do it over the phone, wait til you are at home and both relaxed.

Sending lots of love.

Ks -

Yes we did discuss this yesterday. It was on the phone. I know I should have waited until he got home but he called me on his way home and we were just talking.

I told him that it was disrespectful of him to continue to have a friendship with her. He agreed and just said "OK". He didn't fess up to having talked to her or anything like that. He just said "OK". That was it. It was very frustrating for me.

I can't talk to him at home face to face because he starts claming up and he'll just say....do we have to talk about this again?

It's very hard for me to talk to him at all now.

DON'T TALK ABOUT OW AT ALL!!!!!!!

She is not the problem for your marriage. You and your H are the problem.

The sooner you can STOP worrying about her, the sooner real recovery can begin.

Think about this, hw. Everytime you bring up OW, things go bad. Everytime you DON'T bring up OW, things go good.

Slow down, be patient, and allow the flying poo to accomplish something.

Time is on your side. Don't rush this. You have the rest of your life to be with him.

No LB's and you will attain your goal.

WAT

HW please read my H's post BS's Be Strong...he posts under tellthetruth. Hope things are going okay today.

WAT -

I'm not bringing up OW. I'm trying to do everything I can to make him happy. He's actions concern me. I can tell by the way OW is acting that he is talking to her.

Last night he came home and he was acting strange. I asked him about it. He said nothing is wrong. I could just tell though. I should have left it alone.

When we got in the bed I just said...please tell me what is bothering you. You are making me nervous. I wasn't confrontational. I was just concerned. He wasn't hiself and I was concerned. He just got really pissed off at me.

He yelled and screamed at me. I begged him not to yell and scream. I told him that I was so confused. I just asked him how he could react like this to me when I have been trying to hard to deal with this in the right way.

I dont' know. I had a great day yesterday. A really great day. Why then, did I go to bed crying? Why? How can he react like that. It's like sometime he is wonderful (still not reading the books or coming to the website) but he appears to be wanting to work toward recovery.

How can we be in recovery if he is acting like he did last night?

Hi hw - first I need to say that I have no direct experience in any level of recovery - I never got the chance. So, my responses to you are based solely on what I've learned from others' experiences. Hopefully, MB'ers with REAL experience will chime in.

Nonetheless, I certainly validate your frustration. IF he's going thru withdrawal, it's a very tough time for him. His emotions may be unpredictable. I believe his lashing out at you is an indicator of this - you're just the closest target and in a contorted way, he may feel safe relying on you in this manner. Try very hard NOT to take it personally.

Stay strong, you're doing well.

WAT

Forever -

I found your H's post. It was very very helpful. I posted a question to him. I hope he responds. I could really use his insight.

Hi hw, hope you are feeling better.

I agree with WAT to an extent, but the real issue here is the POJA. There is no hope of recovery if this is not being followed. There are details about the A that H has still not confirmed nor denied. How can hw move on if these questions are not answered?

Please dont let his moods affect your moods too much: he is bound to be up and down at the moment and its not good for you or your recovery if you follow him.

Sending love

ks - I don't believe POJA is a switch that can be turned on - hopefully it will develop as recovery progresses.

Similarly, I don't think a BS should expect all details all at once.

Again, see my recovery disclaimer, above. I believe the long process of recovery takes place in parallel, and in concert with, development of POJA, radical honesty, EN fulfillment, etc. It's not necessarily one before the other, I believe.

WAT

WAT -

You've been with me through most of this so far. From what you have seen of my situation do you think my H is still in the fog? Do you think he's still having withdrawls? It's been since November and he had NC with her for 2 months prior to us moving here. Now he works with her everyday. He's with her right now.

Could his lashing out at me be indicative of FOG?

Also, after last night's arguement...he called this morning to tell me that he was not mad at me.

Of all things he's not mad at me for last night. I'm like...you are not mad at me? YOU ARE NOT MAD AT ME!!! I ask you a question and you yell and scream at me and then you have the balls to call me and say you are not mad at me!

What is that?

FOG!!!

Mortarman!

Where have you been?!?! UUUGGGHHHH!

How do I lift this stupid FOG? What should my game plan be?

I thought we were on our way to recovery but how can we be if he's still in the fog?

Do you think that being in the fog means he may still be having the A? Or at least glad he gets to see her every single day? It makes me sick.

hw - I really validate your frustration. This is likely the biggest challenge of your life. For what it's worth, I was there too, and I survived, although my marriage didn't.

One of the limitations of using a forum such as this is that people like me rely mostly on what people like you tell us. We're experienced enough to know that you may be seeing things either as an optimist or a pessimist and we can try to fill in some of the blanks. It's all filtered information and we're limited to drawing conclusions and offering advice on the information you present and what we can glean from the inferrences. We have to speculate a lot.

That said, for awhile, I was going under the assumption that he was ending the affair. If you recall, you claimed the affair was over. Maybe he was ending it at one time and has now "relapsed." Maybe he was never ending it, but convinced you he was.

Based on the events of the last few days, I'll now speculate that he's likely in the waffling stage. A fence sitter. This is a VERY common place for male WSs. He's alternating back and forth, torn and confused as to what to do. Indecisive. Perhaps part time fog, part time withdrawal, sucking him back into the fog. This is why he can have an outburst like last night and today claim NOT to be mad. Weird experiments take place on the Mothership.

Last night's outburst could have been either an indication of continuing involvement or his conflict of withdrawal or both. He lashed out at you, I believe, because you were there, not necessarily because of any specific thing you did or didn't do. He's conflicted over this mess he has himself in. Perhaps today he realizes he was out of line, hence he's "not mad."

But exactly where he is at any given moment doesn't really matter to YOUR actions until he demonstrates a sustained devotion to you and your marriage. Until then you implement Plan A. If a separation ever occurs, you implement Plan B. The only thing you haven't done is launch the nuke - for reasons we've already discussed. An additional thing you can do is to get professional counseling. Please consider a session with Steve Harley.

Bottom line - they don't call this a rollercoaster for nuthin. I suggest you assume the affair is NOT over and he is NOT in recovery.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by heroswife:
<strong>Of all things he's not mad at me for last night. I'm like...you are not mad at me? YOU ARE NOT MAD AT ME!!! I ask you a question and you yell and scream at me and then you have the balls to call me and say you are not mad at me!

What is that? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That, hw, is one lap on the 'coaster. I'm sorry to predict that it probably won't be the last.

You're doing as best you can. It was good to come here and vent to me. I understand.

WAT

heroswife

I've been following your thread, as I believe I welcomed you to this site on your first post. Here are some things that have happened to me that appear to be typical about the WS during "recovery".

* Peculiar and wavering state of mind. Attribute this to their own desire to continue the A, in spite of knowing its wrong, and, also the realization that huge amounts of damage have been done and they have NO IDEA how to deal with it.

* Deep, DEEP down inside their hearts, they are experiencing two diametricly (SP?) opposed feelings of grief. One for the marriage they damaged, the other for the OP. Again, they don't know how to process both feelings at the same time.

* Emotional detachment. Knowing the pain they have caused, they are much more inclined to hide from the pain, rather than face it straight up. This allows them to keep the fantasy alive.

* Argumentative and combative. WS's can be an endless fountain of LB's and disrespectful remarks designed solely to make the BS angry and respond with a vengence. This allows them to stay emotionally detached, and shift the BLAME for the affair having taken place to the BS.

* Sullen, quiet, withdrawn. All this a result of a combination of the above items. Look how much of an emotional drain it is to be the BS. The WS has an equal amount of emotional drama to deal with, it's just way different than what we, as the BS are going through.

* Complaints of being smothered. Of course. BS's are in Plan A, doing all the right things, and at the same time seeking answers, remorse, groveling (LOL), revenge, love, EN's, and some sense of the WS explaining the affair and returning to the marriage. And this is what the BS's expect in the first HOUR after DDay. Way too many emotions are in play, and both parties have needs that cannot be properly met by the other for several weeks, until the fervor of emotions wains, and people are thinking with clear minds. All of these things take time, and effort. Words to a foggy WS are like throwing cotton balls at a crocodile.

* WS's are all about them. It's me, me, me for the longest time. It's still all about the selfish mode they assumed to allow the A to happen and continue. Plan A, sort of keeps that in place. That's where care and caution need to come into play, so that as the fog lifts for a moment, a BS may have to employ "tough love", without LB's and DJ's. Timing and delivery are everything during this stage.

* Continued contact. Most of the posts I've seen here refer to more than one promise of NC before it truly takes place. Setbacks are common. My WW had 4 breeches before I believed this last "promise" might be the real deal. You know how you're situation is problematic in this regard!

* Lack of interest in learning how to recover. They are in such a state of denial, among other things, that they "don't need to recover". I finally "coerced" WW to read SAA aloud with me, but it was just a courtesy to me that she did it. It meant nothing to her, because at the time, she was still living the fantasy.

All these things seem to be pretty typical. I'm sure other posters can add more. Time, time, time, is the final answer, but the time spent needs to be filled with carefully executed Plan A, or Plan B, depending on the circumstances. Mix in some boundry setting, so the WS has some consequences for errors in His ways, and hang on for the ride. Make most of the times that you have together pleasant for both of you, and choose NOT to talk about the A, recovery, OP. Those talks should be semi-occasional, and not drawn out to become confrontational.

I don't know if any of these things might explain some of what you are going through, but I bet it might. You need to grow an emotional "coat of armor" for this withdrawal. Remember, you were at one time the love of his life. The swampy FOG creature speaking to you now is NOT that man. Don't let his words penetrate your armor. Disattach from his hurtful words. They mean NOTHING. It's not your H speaking. Continue Plan A with a vengence, as it's the fan that will slowly blow the fog away.

Stay strong and energized. You can survive this.

SD